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Accelerating plane research - 2/6/2011 8:24:54 AM

pacificbetta

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Has anyone been able to accelerate a plane beyond its precessor model? Eg, is there a case of accelerating Ki-84r Frank before Ki84a Frank, or even has anyone accelerated it before Ki-84b Frank which is not in the actual upgrade path?

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/6/2011 8:56:33 AM

Hanzberger

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I am wondering the same thing. And since we are on the subject, does anyone know if=I mass produce a plane, do I need groups to fly them or is it just a waste of time. I realize you need pilots, but I was laying in bed wondering, ok if I mass produce this plane (and not produce others) but have no groups to fly them then what is the use? Will I end up with a lot of planes sitting around, and if that is true then you might as well play the Japan side with PDU off, sure you can speed up some stuff but you cant really take a whole different approach.

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/6/2011 11:03:41 AM

CV2

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My understanding is you can only advance a plane 3 months. Now if anyone has gotten 4 or more, I'd like to hear it, because I personally have never seen it.

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/6/2011 11:13:05 AM

gajdacs zsolt

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You can advance it a lot more....I did a 5 month acceleration of the A6M4 in the Reluctant Admiral mod. And this is not much! I could easily avance up the ki-44c by one year, only limited by a HR...

And there's more: You could easily move up the ki-100 by one and a half, maybe even two years (it's another question that in this game the plane just doesn't worth it :( )

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/6/2011 11:16:26 AM

pacificbetta

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quote:

And there's more: You could easily move up the ki-100 by one and a half, maybe even two years (it's another question that in this game the plane just doesn't worth it :( )

Is this a confirmed thing? Cos if you accelerate Ki-100 by 18 mths, it will leapfrog its "earlier" model. Ki-100 II seems like a most worthy plane, almost on par with Frank in stats and it has a service rating of only 1......

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/6/2011 11:40:34 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CV2

My understanding is you can only advance a plane 3 months. Now if anyone has gotten 4 or more, I'd like to hear it, because I personally have never seen it.

I've done it many times in both witp and ae ...

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/6/2011 2:36:48 PM

Hanzberger

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How did you do it Damian, just use multiple RD centers? What about the leap frog approach?

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/6/2011 8:51:21 PM

offenseman

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Damian, in Tracker, is there a way to see how far along R&D is? i.e. You can see that 87 R&D Tojos have been completed? BTW, Tracker is incredible. Thanks to you and Floyd.

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/7/2011 2:06:40 PM

Hanzberger

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bump

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/7/2011 2:49:09 PM

darbycmcd

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I would just caution that many players consider the leapfrog gambit on the very far side of gamey. If you are in a PBEM I would definately check with the other player before you do anything really radical. Some don't mind, but some will have a very serious problem with it.

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/7/2011 5:01:08 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

I would just caution that many players consider the leapfrog gambit on the very far side of gamey. If you are in a PBEM I would definately check with the other player before you do anything really radical. Some don't mind, but some will have a very serious problem with it.

True. Good point. Worth a discussion with one's PBEM partner.

I used to believe this myself as a Japanese player. However, one of my PBEM partners' use of 4EB Allied heavy bombers in a 'bomber sweep' approach convinced me that I could use any and all tools within the game model to challenge this effort. We are moving forward assuming that anything that was not in our HRs at the beginning of the game was 'meant to be in the game' and are proceeding accordingly.

Necessity is the mother of invention. My opponent has determined how to use an ahistoric game advantage to his benefit. Awesome. I'll do likewise. Rock-paper-scissors.

Consider this for your accelerated plane research efforts-if your opponent is one to take these approaches or whether he'll be sympathetic to your situation and change his uses accordingly. You're not without recourse.

Against the AI, of course, all bets are off. The AI cheats like a mother-******. Don't even think about fighting fair. Do anything and everything you possibly can to break it.

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/23/2011 8:19:34 PM

Numdydar

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Can someone please explain in detail how a plane was accelerated beyond the three month window?

In my game I started increasing the number of factories 'building' a R&D plane. It is currently 9/7/1942 and since the beginng of the game, I have gone from 'building' 0/month to 35/month and the plane is still stuck at the same availability date with no change for 3 months at least (I still have a lot of factories to go from 'repairing' to building' too). Plenty of the engines it needs so not a question of lack of engines.

So while I can increase the number of factories to reseach the plane, it still takes time to 'repair' the expansion (lees than 1 a day for some reason). However factories that are producing available planes in the same base CAN repair at 1 a day with no issue (Base has 35,00 supplies so I doubt that is an issue and it is in Japan proper so no issue with fuel/resource transport or availability.).

Any comments or suggestions?

Edit:
Doing the calculations, I have 'built' 116 over the course of the game so I should have gotten at least 1 month of advancement, correct?

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 2/23/2011 8:25:23 PM >

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 7:52:10 AM

Hanzberger

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You need 100 (pts?) to advance a month, I think. I think the 'pts' are in a lock box so there is no way of telling. I will be following this thread. I would think that you would have moved up at least one month.

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 8:27:25 AM

d0mbo

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Numdyar: you only get points from COMPLETED factories
e.g. 1(0) or 20(0) will give 21 points R&D each month,
99(1) and1(29) will give you exactly.... zero points.
And the repairrate is based on a) how far in the future is the model you researching? (further away = slower repair) and b) are the repair criteria met (10.000 supply) and c) Gary Grigby's imfamous dice roll a.k.a. luck.

I changed a lot of factories and found out they don't really repair fast as i am probably researching too late a model. I should have gone for the closer models and changing the factories one month before whatever they were researching is avaiable. Anyway, in my current PBEM i messed R&D up as i didn;t understand the rules well. Oh well, we shall see what happens ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Can someone please explain in detail how a plane was accelerated beyond the three month window?

In my game I started increasing the number of factories 'building' a R&D plane. It is currently 9/7/1942 and since the beginng of the game, I have gone from 'building' 0/month to 35/month and the plane is still stuck at the same availability date with no change for 3 months at least (I still have a lot of factories to go from 'repairing' to building' too). Plenty of the engines it needs so not a question of lack of engines.

So while I can increase the number of factories to reseach the plane, it still takes time to 'repair' the expansion (lees than 1 a day for some reason). However factories that are producing available planes in the same base CAN repair at 1 a day with no issue (Base has 35,00 supplies so I doubt that is an issue and it is in Japan proper so no issue with fuel/resource transport or availability.).

Any comments or suggestions?

Edit:
Doing the calculations, I have 'built' 116 over the course of the game so I should have gotten at least 1 month of advancement, correct?

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 11:54:09 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Against the AI, of course, all bets are off. The AI cheats like a mother-******. Don't even think about fighting fair. Do anything and everything you possibly can to break it.

Yep, just throw Andy under the bus (again)!

PS: Have to admit, some of his AI routines are so fiendish.

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 1:10:44 PM

fcharton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo
Numdyar: you only get points from COMPLETED factories
e.g. 1(0) or 20(0) will give 21 points R&D each month,
99(1) and1(29) will give you exactly.... zero points.

If this is so, the trick to get planes sooner is to get many small factories research the same plane, rather than large ones. 20 factories at 0 (5) will certainly repair, and therefore research faster than one at 0 (100)...

Question : are the R&D points earned each month (only????) ?

Francois

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 4:10:22 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

Numdyar: you only get points from COMPLETED factories
e.g. 1(0) or 20(0) will give 21 points R&D each month,
99(1) and1(29) will give you exactly.... zero points.
And the repairrate is based on a) how far in the future is the model you researching? (further away = slower repair) and b) are the repair criteria met (10.000 supply) and c) Gary Grigby's imfamous dice roll a.k.a. luck.

I changed a lot of factories and found out they don't really repair fast as i am probably researching too late a model. I should have gone for the closer models and changing the factories one month before whatever they were researching is avaiable. Anyway, in my current PBEM i messed R&D up as i didn;t understand the rules well. Oh well, we shall see what happens ;)

Let me see if I have this right. If ANY R&D factory is under repair X(Y) then you get NO points towards that planes R&D? Obviously this is NOT the way factories that are actually building planes work (thank God

). But in a R&D factory that is X(0) then I get X points toward research every month?

So two questions (which I do not expect to be answered btw)

1. Why are the two types of factories (production and R&D) handled so differently?
2. Why is not any of this clearly explained somewhere? At least I could not find it and believe me I looked.

Thanks for the info. Now if I could convince my opponent to strat over again

What's another year of RL anyway

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 4:28:31 PM

USSAmerica

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I've never played the Japanese side, so I have no first hand experience with AC research. I can answer question 2 in the above post:

"2. Why is not any of this clearly explained somewhere? At least I could not find it and believe me I looked."

If every nuance of this magnificent game were clearly documented and explained in the manual (completely ignoring all the things that have changed with multiple patches) the manual would be the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

There is just WAY too much detail that happens behind the scenes in our beloved game to get it all down in writing. Besides, that's half of the fun on the forums, exercising the game and learning new nuggets about it.

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 5:55:07 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

I've never played the Japanese side, so I have no first hand experience with AC research.� I can answer question 2 in the above post:

"2. Why is not any of this clearly explained somewhere? At least I could not find it and believe me I looked."

If every nuance of this magnificent game were clearly documented and explained in the manual (completely ignoring all the things that have changed with multiple patches) the manual would be the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica.�

There is just WAY too much detail that happens behind the scenes in our beloved game to get it all down in writing.� Besides, that's half of the fun on the forums, exercising the game and learning new nuggets about it.�

For the most part I totally agree with your comments above. However, something that imho is this critical for the Japanese player deserves some mention of how it works rather than having the player assume that both sets of factories work in the same way (which is what I did unfortunately). If both factory types worked the same way, then I agree there is no reason to spell it out again. But because there is a HUGE difference in the way they work, then that difference should be described somewhere where people can find it easily.

Just my 2 cents worth

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 6:44:19 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Let me see if I have this right. If ANY R&D factory is under repair X(Y) then you get NO points towards that planes R&D? Obviously this is NOT the way factories that are actually building planes work (thank God ). But in a R&D factory that is X(0) then I get X points toward research every month?

Yes, your understanding is correct. Hence the benefits of a smaller factory size, but more of them.

quote:

So two questions (which I do not expect to be answered btw)

1. Why are the two types of factories (production and R&D) handled so differently?

Idunno (shrugs shoulders)

quote:

2. Why is not any of this clearly explained somewhere? At least I could not find it and believe me I looked.

Idunno (shrugs shoulders)

quote:

Thanks for the info. Now if I could convince my opponent to strat over again What's another year of RL anyway

How far along are you in the game? If not far, it may still be recoverable.

Don't forget (major consolation to JFBs that botched their early war production [looks at self...is disgusted...looks away]) that you STILL get airframes and / or engines delivered to you on the historical date, regardless of whether you researched them or not. So you can't do worse than historical.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 2/24/2011 6:45:05 PM >

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 7:00:06 PM

Hanzberger

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To Chickenboy, so if I 'tore' down some factories, hence no research, no factory for a particular airframe, I will still get them?

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 7:53:27 PM

Chickenboy

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'tis my understanding. I welcome a confirmation or rebuttal, however.

I neglected to advance my A6M3a research, overlooking that in my research tree until it was too late to really bother with anyways. Like clockwork on 12/42, I was able to switch over existing production factories of the A6M2 to it with no downtime or delay. [Note: wait a few days before doing this manually. Sometimes the computer automatically updates your production. There is no cost for doing this.]

This brings up another recommendation for JFBs just getting started: There's a difference between the A6M3 and the A6M3a. It's an important difference that you should familiarize yourself with.

ETA: In order to produce engines or airframes, you will need to have a dedicated PRODUCTION factory to produce it. The engine or airframe will "become available" on its historical date-it's up to you to identify and program where it will be produced once available.

I recommend accessing this from your 'industry screen'-the green smokestack-like button on your main screen. When you click on any aircraft factory, you will have a choice of converting it to any other type (column on the right hand side). Only production models that are currently available will be available here as a choice. You may pay penalties for switching factories between disparate model types, so be cognizant of what upgrades to what and maybe let give a few days for the computer to auto upgrade.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 2/24/2011 8:06:03 PM >

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 8:08:51 PM

Numdydar

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The difference would not be the increased range would it

8 versus 6 normal and 9 versus 7 extended (both without fuel tanks). This makes a huge difference in the Solomons.

Of course there is also the increase in accuracy from 22 to 23 between the two cannon types as well. But somehow I don't think that alone would be worth the upgrade

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 8:12:01 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

The difference would not be the increased range would it

8 versus 6 normal and 9 versus 7 extended (both without fuel tanks). This makes a huge difference in the Solomons.

Of course there is also the increase in accuracy from 22 to 23 between the two cannon types as well. But somehow I don't think that alone would be worth the upgrade

What you say is true re: range. The A6M3 will only equip your LBA (Land-based air) units, basically ground-based IJNAF. That's fine, but most players want to have the replacement for the CARRIER CAPABLE version of the plane-that's the A6M3a. You can't use A6M3s on an aircraft carrier, so don't overproduce the hell out of 'em like another production idiot around here did.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 2/24/2011 8:13:55 PM >

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 8:12:27 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

To Chickenboy, so if I 'tore' down some factories, hence no research, no factory for a particular airframe, I will still get them?

I have that exact situation as some Japanese plane types are really junk with wings. So I can definately let you know in six months or so when it actually happens to me

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/24/2011 8:23:40 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

The difference would not be the increased range would it

8 versus 6 normal and 9 versus 7 extended (both without fuel tanks). This makes a huge difference in the Solomons.

Of course there is also the increase in accuracy from 22 to 23 between the two cannon types as well. But somehow I don't think that alone would be worth the upgrade

What you say is true re: range. The A6M3 will only equip your LBA (Land-based air) units, basically ground-based IJNAF. That's fine, but most players want to have the replacement for the CARRIER CAPABLE version of the plane-that's the A6M3a. You can't use A6M3s on an aircraft carrier, so don't overproduce the hell out of 'em like another production idiot around here did.

I checked the database and that is ture, the A6M3's are NOT carrier capable. That is REALLY good to know as I am just about to start getting them.

Is that historical though? I thought all AxMy planes were carrier capable. All the A6M5 series a,b,c are all carrier capable. So why is the A6M3's not?

Besides isn't it the squadron that determines wither a plane is carrier trained versus carrier capable?

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/25/2011 12:16:56 PM

Cavalry Corp

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The A version is te carrier versions come along a few months later.

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/25/2011 3:12:10 PM

ilovestrategy

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Hanz, is that Tokyo Rose in your avatar?

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RE: Accelerating plane research - 2/25/2011 6:58:11 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Besides isn't it the squadron that determines wither a plane is carrier trained versus carrier capable?

Yes and no.

There ARE differences in plane airframes that make some of them carrier capable vs. incapable. P-51D? Not carrier capable. F4U? Carrier capable. I believe that most of these changes relate to plane storage (foldable wings), undercarriage strength, landing gear, arrestor hooks, etc. where there are genuine physical airframe changes between airframes.

The differences in carrier trained vs. carrier capable is related to squadron / sentai / daitai / whatevertai experience on carriers. A carrier capable group will suffer higher OPS losses, but can operate from carriers. Over time, these will switch over to carrier trained and be much more organically capable of operation from carriers.

In the A6M example, as far as I can tell, the A6M3 was the only non-carrier capable aircraft of the lot.