Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Hmmm didn´t something very very similar to this happen at Midway?
Cant check because I am at work now.

A couple of damaged Zeros, maybe 1 kill, and 1-2 downed B17s with the remainders sustaining different levels of damage?
And useless water splashes around the KB carriers naturally.
I think there was a pretty similar result except if I mix up things completely now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Asuming all 51 Zeroes would attack... and all would have full cannon ammo left. Leaving the Zeroes MGs aside, this would be 6120 20mm shells. What was the hit rate in real life against such targets with not so spectacular Japanese 20mm cannons? 3%? Would be 184 20mm hits then. How many 20mm hits did it take to down a B-17 on average? 20-30 German shells? 30-40 Japanese? More? Less?

As we´re talking about big bombers (which I assume would be easier to hit than a fighter) the hit rate probably was higher because otherwise the hit rate with 20mm cannons on fighters would have been only one or two shelss at best out of a fully armed Zero.

In real life I would guess 3 or 4 of the B-17 shot down with the rest being damaged. In the game, probably 1 or 2 shot down on average, in this case probably none lost? Now the question remains how many really attacked the bombers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

This is not intended to start another massive debate over whether the game is right or wrong in the way it handles 4E combat. I am simply curious as to what players think the end result of this combat would have been had this occurred in real life. The B-17s came from Auckland I assume and the carriers were parked one hex north of Norfolk Island.


Morning Air attack on 144th Infantry Regiment, at 113,170 (Norfolk Island)

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 51



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 7


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: ???


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: ???

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 12000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Also 51,000 7,7 x 58mm cartridges. Makes 730 hits per B-17 even if the hit-ratio was just 1%.

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

It's surprising that the raid is detected 40m out on an island that you're invading. KB have radar?

I don't know of any instances of KB providing lrcap to ground troops irl so I don' think I can answer your question. If this was the first time that it was attempted, I'd imagine there would be few casualties on either side (especially on the ground). Organizing an lrcap system on the fly with admittedly spotty communications wouldn't be that easy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

This is not intended to start another massive debate over whether the game is right or wrong in the way it handles 4E combat. I am simply curious as to what players think the end result of this combat would have been had this occurred in real life. The B-17s came from Auckland I assume and the carriers were parked one hex north of Norfolk Island.


Morning Air attack on 144th Infantry Regiment, at 113,170 (Norfolk Island)

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 51



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 7


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: ???


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: ???

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 12000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M2 Zero (16 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(16 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 14000
Raid is overhead
Kaga-1 with A6M2 Zero (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 14000
Raid is overhead
Hiryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (24 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
24 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 14000
Raid is overhead


Thanks in advance.

Chez

quote:

In the game, I say 6 damaged B17s, 1 OPS loss, 4 A6Ms lost

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Ahh yeah, very true. I suck at Maths, thats why I do Physics.

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Physics applies math to the real world, which makes it easier to understand. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

How would the CAP even be routed to the raid, assuming they didn't have radios.... flak burst morse code?
When people are guessing very high losses for american bombers, does someone have an historical episode in mind?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


Haiphong raid on 15th September of 1943 (4 out of 5 Liberators shot down), for example. Most attempts of unescorted broad daylight attacks on major Japanese bases, like Rabaul raid on January 5th of 1943 (2 out 11 Flying Fortresses/Liberators shot down) weren't so disastrous, but that's probably the example with the ratio of interceptors to bombers closest to the OP's case.

quote:

Summer of 1942 B-17 unescorted raids from Oz had similar results, which is largely why they were moved from bombing to recon. The losses were unsustainable (crew morale) and the a/c (at that time) were unreplaceable.