Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 7:19:53 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Comrade P and BigAnorak have debated a couple times the ideal German set-up for Winter. I am still a little fuzzy on what the exact concept is for each, so I am soliciting advice/opinions on what works best.

For winter, minus Panzers, the Germans will have a little more than a Division per hex available, plus some Allied Extras (how many depends on how you garrison cities, and how many). 90 hexes is about the minimum defense line, maybe 95 or 100 if you have a few curves. The Germans should have, by Winter, 106 Infantry/Mtn Divisions, plus 4 Rom/Hun Mtn Bdes that are about as effective as a German Division.

I have screenshots below. Pretend there are forts! Illustrative purposes only. And it's actually summer in this shot, but hopefully you get the picture.

Checkerboard leave gaps in between the stacks. The way I understand it has certain plusses/minuses:
PLUS: Greater concentration of force. Fewer hexes to dig in. Most importantly, the Reds will launch fewer attacks per turn, resulting in fewer gains/loss via morale (NOTE: This may be less of a factor in next patch).
MINUS: Easy to shoot gaps with Cav, forcing retreats.

Linebacker is more of a carpet defense.
PLUS: Forces Reds to attack each hex to advance. You can rest and rotate your troops easily, keeping some units fresher.
MINUS: There is a cap to number of units that can receive benfit from towns/cities; more units = fewer guys getting benefit. Also, each individual hex should be easy to hit by the Reds. LOTS of morale boosting attacks

Not sure what the best approach is, any thoughts out there?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________
Post #: 1
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 8:09:55 PM   
Swenslim

 

Posts: 437
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Odessa, Ukraine
Status: offline 		Definitly Linebaker. Because on left picture soviet forces can make the deliberate attack from 3 sides of hex and on the right picture only from 2. And on left screen they can easily cross the river without fight and dont have penaltys for direct attack across the river.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 2
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 8:10:17 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
I definitely am going to use linebacker. The Russians can ooze into those holes in the checkerboard and you can't push them out in blizzard. They'll be getting 3 hex attacks on your front line.



_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 3
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 8:10:58 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Your post finger is faster than mine apparently.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 4
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 8:20:56 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		I'm not sure, personally, BUT
The presence of the river creates a strong incentive to go Linebacker.
Even minor rivers are very helpful in diluting attack CV.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 5
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 8:28:50 PM   
Mike Parker

 

Posts: 583
Joined: 12/30/2008
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		I would point out the problem with the linebacker defense is that signifigant portions of your defending units will not be in urban or town hexes meaning the blizard will hit hard. But the problem with the checkerboard is that not only will they get 3 hexes to attack you, they can (and should) just ooze right on past you to isolate units and formations. During the blizzard there isn't much you can do then but fall back or face isolation, they will attack to gain morale, and ooze around you to isolate you and gain attrition contact which is the SU's friend.

I still don't know how the Axis defends in blizzard?! Linebacker seems best but your units not sheltering in urban/towns will be slowly crushed by the cold!

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 6
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 8:43:30 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I'm not sure, personally, BUT
The presence of the river creates a strong incentive to go Linebacker.
Even minor rivers are very helpful in diluting attack CV.



Rivers are frozen in Blizzard, and don't help at all. Even Major ones. The only terrain that matters is cities/towns, rough, swamp, and heavy woods.

Good thoughts so far...

_____________________________


(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 7
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 8:51:46 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		The checkboard's ZOC's would probably be too strong for the Soviet Cavalry to slip through on a pure movement only encirclement.

Early war Cavalry morale should be alot lower than the magical 85 number, which would mean increased MP's cost to enter enemy ZOC.

Hell 65 morale units sometimes won't even advance with 4 MP's.

The Linebacker Defence should give a greater amount of reserve unit commitment potential.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 8
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 9:12:41 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		I think I would lean more towards linebacker for a couple of reasons. As some have already mentioned, I think one of the keys is to deny the Russians more than two hexes to attack from. They attack from two hexes, it may move you, but you won't get as hurt as bad because you are not getting as ganged up on. Another factor is I think someone running a linebacker defense is likely to give up less territory than using a checker board. As a Soviet, I would basically be trying to ooze through the German line as much as possible. If the Russians have a lot of cav, they can absolutely get behind the first rank of Germans and you risk units getting surrounded. At the very least, you are backing up a lot to avoid encirclement.


(in reply to cookie monster)
Post #: 9
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 9:40:57 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Not sure where I lean (which is why I posted), but in defense of Checkerboard, Red Cav would have a tough time up in there. They would probably be one-hex only for movement, and supply would be a problem.

A Cav Unit on either end, though, would result in a forced retreat; you can't just sit there while they surround the unit.

A negative on Linebacker is unit clutter. You will want to keep Regts from same div together, because if you want to rest the unit, you have to recombine it to get maximum advantage from putting it in a city.

The other negative is that although Linebacker limits 3-hex attacks, it will likely increase the NUMBER of attacks along the line, thus opportunities for Germans to lose morale and Sovs to gain it. This might be mitigated, though, in next patch, because the Germans should recover quicker if I understand the changes, and the Reds will hit a Morale Ceiling at Nat Mor + 30, or 65.

_____________________________


(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 10
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 9:45:09 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		How about a mix of both?

Checkerboard close to large cities which have some mobile reserves (panzer) to push back cav penetrations and then retreat back into the city. Linebacker where there are no mobile reserves present.


(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 11
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 9:47:14 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Soviets can always move at least one hex, so they will definitely be able to slowly ooze into that checkerboard. And the Germans will either have to retreat or get surrounded because you won't be able to knock the leading units out.

Plus, he's going to be hitting lots of them with nine units plus reserves and probably causing routs.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 12
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 9:50:31 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Shouldnt a panzer div that is/was resting in a city hex be able to push back the leading Soviet unit(s)?

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 13
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 10:00:44 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		CHARON: You can't count on having Panzers near by all the time, and counterattacks in Blizzard chew up ALOT of tanks! Still, you probably have to whack a Cav unit now and then to keep them honest

What about Straight-Up LINEAR? Just putting a division in every hex?

Obviously that is a real bad idea in the Summer, but in the Blizzard, isn't mobility so limited, that the Reds won't be able to really exploit the hole they make?

I am dubious, but just asking. And this seems to be what I see on most of the AARs, whether by design or desperation.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 2/10/2011 10:01:34 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 14
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 10:12:35 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I'm not sure, personally, BUT
The presence of the river creates a strong incentive to go Linebacker.
Even minor rivers are very helpful in diluting attack CV.



Rivers are frozen in Blizzard, and don't help at all. Even Major ones. The only terrain that matters is cities/towns, rough, swamp, and heavy woods.

Good thoughts so far...

Err, except for mine. D'oh!

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 15
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 10:16:56 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

What about Straight-Up LINEAR? Just putting a division in every hex?


I would say straight-up NO GAPS. When I used linebacker, it generally lasted 3-5 turns in most sectors of the front, and the reserve regiments had to recombine to take the place on unready troops in the line. I know that the unready state does not affect defence, but unready units are much more likely to rout, and it takes much longer to recover from a rout. I always felt that maximising the 2hex-side attacks did help, and would always withdraw from 4 hex-side threatened hexes.

But, my blizzard philosophy has always been based on pushing as far east as I possibly could, by attacking through the mud and snow, then being prepared to retreat through a "blizzard buffer", and then counter-attacking in the March snow,but not too many AARs have been able to replicate this.

As long as the panzers were in winter quarters, I was OK with the Landsers absorbing the attrition and combat losses.

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 16
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 10:19:40 PM   
Pawlock

 

Posts: 1041
Joined: 9/18/2002
From: U.K.
Status: offline 		I think a combination of both, depending on defensive terrain and localty of nearby towns. A few questions do spring to mind though which could influence choices,

Linebacker obviously uses regiments, do they exert the same amount of movement penalties as divisional ZOC?

Also with linbacker, you may be only facing a two directional attack at most, but you only have a regimental CV to defend with.

Again, would a division fortify quicker than a regiment?

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 17
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 10:26:38 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Q-Ball's screenshot is not quite showing what I would call a linebacker. In my tests , I would build 4 inf. div. corps, with 3 divs in the front line, with the 3 regiments behind. I would usually give the regiments pioneer bns to help with digging.

Below shows the defence I built in front of Moscow for my Game with Trey. I had not pulled the Panzers out of the Line, because I went all-out to get A hex of Moscow:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Pawlock)
Post #: 18
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/10/2011 10:28:58 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		8 turns of Blizzard later:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 19
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/11/2011 12:21:14 AM   
krieger


Posts: 38
Joined: 1/13/2011
Status: offline 		I would combine both kinds of defence if necesary but prefer checkerboard to keep things organized cause the blizzard is a major mess by itself. If they try to sneak in between your units then a fighting withdrawal is next, but never lose the combat integrity of the kampfgruppen (by having 2-3 divs by january41 in most such groups), this will make you holding many more major attacks or at least is the only viable or thinkable solution to resist such attacks (try to use forts from the summer advance as well, they last several months). In a linebacker defense a general defeat can be much worse to recover from as you get attacked so many times and loose much morale and experience (due to replacements) except when you get isolated in the checkerboard defense of course. Havent played the soviets yet (well, only veliky luki scn), so I'll have to see how much they can infiltrate, if they can infiltrate 2 hexes/turn moving from EZOC to EZOC even in enemy hexes, then a linebacker would be the only option to have some kind of safety. I only did 1 panzer counterattack in the whole winter and costed a sizeable amount of AFVs.

Also I noticed none of my reserves worked as such during the soviets attacks in my blizzard as axis player, none intervened in any of the fights initiated by the soviet AI. I guess this is being or has been looked at for next patch/es.

Probably the best defense for the axis in winter is planning well the acomodation of troops, the more that are protected from the winter by cities/urban/town bonuses the better...


< Message edited by krieger -- 2/11/2011 8:34:01 AM >

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 20
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/11/2011 4:25:25 AM   
Krieg

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 1/8/2011
Status: offline 		I guess i have to ask before I could comment on which approach i think is better, what are you trying to achieve with your defensive line? Do you anticipate holding until the Soviets break through and then fall back to a secondary line, or are you looking at trading space for time? The reason I ask is that with the Soviet build up of forces I do not think either will work for long. With winter CVs down to 1,2 , or if you are lucky a 3 a Division per hex wont stand against the Soviets for more than one turn along most of the front. I think the best approach that i have seen is a modified linebacker where the rear rank falls back a fex hexes and then the front starts to fall back over 2-3 turns. When it falls back to the rear rank, it displaces and heads to the rear to refit, while the rear rank comes out of refit and assumes the front line posture. A plain checkboard is a recipe, i think, for Soviet encirclement of German units and the standard linebacker is fine until the Soviets find a weak spot and then your done.

The question I have for the group which ties into yours is how do you know as the Germans you were successful in the winter months? I mean I know you can reasonably say you failed if the Soviets are in Berlin towards the end of the first winter, but beyond that what are you looking at to determine, that yes my defensive plan worked?

Krieg

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 21
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/11/2011 9:41:12 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

The question I have for the group which ties into yours is how do you know as the Germans you were successful in the winter months


The measures I had when testing were: Where is my front line in June 1942 compared to history? What is my OOB compared to the 1942 campaign start?

Obviously as I improved my defensive techniques, I did better on both counts. The south remains the area where I find it harder to get to the historical front line, but In general I was doing better in the north and about level in the centre.

With regards to the OOB numbers I always came out ahead of the historical 1942 campaign start numbers, so several adjustments were made to the replacement and attrition numbers as a result of the blizzard tests I ran.

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to Krieg)
Post #: 22
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/12/2011 10:01:19 PM   
bloomstombs2

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 1/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I'm not sure, personally, BUT
The presence of the river creates a strong incentive to go Linebacker.
Even minor rivers are very helpful in diluting attack CV.



Not in the blizzard which he is concerened about

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 23
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/12/2011 10:19:39 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		I think a checkerboard is best behind the lines, it allows for units to be stronger (at least if the towns are larger) and create strongpoints to fall back on.  A solid front line is needed, because it is too easy to infiltrate, even lower morale units of the soviets.  However, the reserves in towns give both fall-back and potential sudden attack points (if there is a full and warm division there, for instance).

I have the biggest problems in the center, as the poor 4th army always seems to take a beating - in the hotseat I played it was roughed up badly.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to bloomstombs2)
Post #: 24
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/12/2011 10:46:18 PM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline 		To me BigA's is the best way to go.  I tried the pure linear defense and I think I held my ground well because of ZOC but in addition I also probably burnt a lot of divisions up in the last 2-3 weeks just trying to hold the line.  Nothing against your opponent BigA but it appears he didn't make a entire frontal assault across the board like Red did to me for the first 2 months so I don't think you lost as much ground as you could of. 

What would you of done if you hadn't taken Leningrad.  You definately would of been stretched very thin for a linebacker so your one test subject to me is good but it may not accurately reflect what most players may face for most opponents.  How would you have covered the entire front and leave units back for fire brigade duties to plug any possible holes that may appear in the later stages of the blizzard?

_____________________________


(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)
Post #: 25
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/12/2011 11:45:21 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

What would you of done if you hadn't taken Leningrad.  You definately would of been stretched very thin for a linebacker so your one test subject to me is good but it may not accurately reflect what most players may face for most opponents.  How would you have covered the entire front and leave units back for fire brigade duties to plug any possible holes that may appear in the later stages of the blizzard?


I agree that getting Leningrad gave me a best case scenario to get full linebacker coverage. Without Leningrad I would have used motorised units for linebacker duties, and possibly the SS motorised that I used as the fire brigade in the game with Trey, so my expectations for the March counter offensive would be less.

Overall I think the front would be 2-3 hexes further west than I achieved against Trey, but still pretty close to the historical 1942 start line.

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to CarnageINC)
Post #: 26
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/13/2011 12:51:08 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		In Linebacker, are those second line units in Reserve mode or just having a party?

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 27
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/13/2011 11:51:49 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		In early tests they were in reserve mode, but then I discovered that sometimes the command penalty from cross-army reserve activation reduced CVs by more than the CV of the reserve unit, so I am much more selective, and only have mostly division sized units in reserve mode

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 28
RE: Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? - 2/13/2011 12:24:15 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Linebacker

The more units that survive the winter (assuming that you save the Panzers by keeping them off the front line) the more chance you have off stretching the Soviets in '42.

If the Russian attacks everywhere though in that first blizzard, you could be stretched, but its still probably worth it.

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 29
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> Winter Defense: Checkerboard, or Linebacker? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.906