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H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts

 
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H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/5/2011 6:48:56 PM   
kojusoki1

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 1/6/2009
Status: offline 		We can consider our last H2H Grand Campaign fisnihed. I wonder if Devs did it also;)
Germans hold Arnhem, allies lost. We played with such settings:

-Germans at Recruit, Allies at Line
-morale ON
-we agreed NOT TO USE medium mortars unless shooting guns. Only light (up to 60mm) were allowed

-guns can be placed in large hedgerows and bocage
-small hedgerows block LOS
-Recycle Disbanded BGs (0 = Never come back, 1 = Return next day): 1
-BGs retreat on rout (0 = disband on rout, 1 = retreat on rout):1
-blowing bridge doesnt force disbanding/retreating: yes (we made a home rule that main bridges cannot be blown)
-rising by +1 german morale and experience

Weapons.txt
-Scoped weapons set accuracy to 512, PB at 80
-At the end of the campaign I have altered Shreck in weaponst.txt so now they have Accuracy setting: 512 (100% basic hit)

We didnt allow allies to stay on German entry maps, east of Nijmegen - its crucial as Germans will never make it - their entry deploment area is too bad
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

So here are my thoughts after spending tons of time playing with Will and finally finishing this game as German:

-german morale must be raised as there is no fun playing germans.
-with new game mechanics (algorythm checking if there is a hit or not), single shot weapons are extremly inaccurate. LMGs and MGs work fine, but snipers, Shrecks etc are uselss. Its is especially weakning allied side as they have way less automatic weapons
-points system sucks. So what allies have 5 times more armour when they cannot afford them! And the "rest" feature is not to effective (IMHO). Dont get me wrong - I do like the point system itself, but the current number of points is simply way too low or is replenishing too slow. It is enough to have a one good fight againts Allied BG to have it criplled (kill a few unuts, 2 tanks and they can be considered crippled due to points what is crazy)
-why german side has no shrecks? Now, untill nijmegen, those games are simply boring. From one hand allies steamroll any german BG as they dont have AT weapons AT ALL, from other hand point system is the main factor why germans win.
Basically Germans only chance to win is thanks to point system. Its the Wunderwaffen. Germans have useless Shrecks, so weak morale (when unmoded), no At weapons, but they will win becouse of points.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My 0,02$ regarding new patch:

Elements.txt:
-guns can be placed in large hedgerows and bocage
Comment: ok, bocage maybe not, but hedgrow!? Come on!
-small hedgerows block LOS
Comment:without this, we can have strange situation as you can get hit from anywhere. Remember, its a 2D, not 3D game

Campaign.txt
-Recycle Disbanded BGs (0 = Never come back, 1 = Return next day): 1
-BGs retreat on rout (0 = disband on rout, 1 = retreat on rout):1
-blowing bridge doesnt force disbanding/retreating: YES
Comment:but remove ability to blow main bridges like Nijmegen or Arnhem road bridge

AlsTeams.txt and AxsTeams.txt
-rising by +1 german morale and experience
Comment: IMHO really neccessary. If left as it was, all the games until Nijmegen are basically no fun. I know Germans had low morale and experience, but the current settings in this game model says that those guys dont know what a rifle is for...)

Weapons.txt
-Scoped weapons, Shrecks and all "one shot weapons" set accuracy to 512, PB at 80
Comment: "Vanilla" shrecks can hit nothing even at 40m distance and are spotted to early

1). Change the points system please. Its killing the game. Give us ability to double them, disable them or whatever. I won becouse of that. My opponent has plenty of fireflys but in the forcepool he cannot afford. Also I think resting should add more points
2). Add Shrecks (even a single one will force the allied commander to be more cautions... Now he is simply driving forward killing all resistance. I know germans have Fausts, but i think you know what I mean
3). Rise Snipers ability as its fun playing with them. rememebr SAS mod in CCV? They were really effective at 100m and I guess they should have a really nice kill ratio. Now they are uselss
4). Dont you think German Light Machine Guns should have more then 450 rounds?


From one hand Germans are way weaker, but from another, they won. Dont you think its strange?:)

< Message edited by kojusoki1 -- 2/5/2011 7:25:24 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/5/2011 7:10:45 PM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 3437
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		Good feedback kojusoki1!

What version of the game did you play the GC with?

Based on developer comments in the forums a number of those items are or will be addressed in a patch. Have to check the patch release notes against your list/suggestions....


< Message edited by Tejszd -- 2/5/2011 7:13:40 PM >

(in reply to kojusoki1)
Post #: 2
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/5/2011 7:22:06 PM   
kojusoki1

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 1/6/2009
Status: offline 		Thank you Tejszd.

It was the newest version, BETA patch.
I know some were addressed - just wanted to sumarize them all together and show the impact on our campaign
Basically it was a really fun unless some annoying things (points system and Shrecks (First: in some Bgs there are 20 Shrecks, in other no shrecks at all... Second: unmoded they are useless)

(in reply to Tejszd)
Post #: 3
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/6/2011 3:44:11 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kojusoki1

Thank you Tejszd.

It was the newest version, BETA patch.
I know some were addressed - just wanted to sumarize them all together and show the impact on our campaign



Still love to have the feedback. Thanks for taking the time to post it! Very insightful and nicely detailed. Not really much new as we've heard most of your comments along the way so it's great to have the summary. The bit about the snipers seems new to me. Maybe I missed prior comments on this.

quote:

From one hand Germans are way weaker, but from another, they won. Dont you think its strange?:)


Not really. I think LSA is something of an enigma and much deeper than it may first appear to someone coming into it relatively recently. The allies have a LONG way to go and very few battle groups, as compared to the Germans who have the extra Bo. units to supplement their standard compliment, and therefore the allies don't really have enough resources to take all the objectives while maintaining supply lines. Some very realistic strategic challenges for the allies. The German tactical assets have to be balanced against the allied strategic disadvantage to give the allied player some inkling of hope. Hence the apparently unrealistic German weaknesses on the tactical level and a bit on the strategic level (FP's, points) and hesitancy to make them too much stronger.

The CC engine despite its detail is a fairly finite engine and only so many things you can do to simulate real life events while maintaining game play balance. Winds up making for some abstractions some folks can live with and some can't. It's a game with rules to simulate real life events just like any other game. I think as long as it's viewed in the context of what it is, all these years later since Microsoft's/Atomic's original releases, it's a pretty great game system. Steve did a great job balancing LSA gameplay in that context imo. I think the suggestions and subsequent tweaks that have been made are good and likely some more that can be made to improve gameplay balance without tipping the balance away from the intended design.

Again, thanks for the input.

< Message edited by RD_Oddball -- 2/6/2011 3:46:50 PM >

(in reply to kojusoki1)
Post #: 4
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/6/2011 11:22:18 PM   
kojusoki1

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 1/6/2009
Status: offline 		Its late so I just will say that I do agree with most what you have written here. And what is most important, I do know its a game and has its limitations. Dont get me wrong:  I find it as one of the best games I ever played (I play it since CCIV, each release), with a really good model - which just need some tweaks (famous mortars vs At guns etc)

My point of view is from a H2H game, a game that must give joy for both players. I understand your approach - I just find it strange that for example some BGs have 20 Shrecks while others have none, Snipers that are inacurate like hell etc.

Those are impressions from our game, from the side of a German commander - some games were simply boring as german player has nothing to play with.

So the intention was to make it even a better game :)

(in reply to RD Oddball)
Post #: 5
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/7/2011 1:28:25 AM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		Yes indeed. Awesome. Thanks again!

(in reply to kojusoki1)
Post #: 6
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/8/2011 1:56:37 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		from a historical stand point the germans did win the Campaign.....they held Arnhem and stopped the allies at Nijmegan. they had there hands tied somewhat with lack of equipment and lack of large formations of trained troops, among other things.

were trying to play some of the OP's and the Hell's Highway GC right now and were finding that for sure the germans have to be played on Recruit to get enough points to function / buy there tanks, and even on recruit some BG's dont get enough points to function in a playable manner.
were playing the allies on line and so far the allies seem ok but i could see in the GC that they may not have enough points on line to refit there BG's after a good mauling. so they may have to be played on Recruit also.

i totally agree on the shreak accuracie issue and lack of shreaks in some BG's and all your points Kojusoki1. great feed back.


Oddball....thanks for the insight and feedback. you make some good points, as always. do you think you guys might re address the point system?

< Message edited by STIENER -- 2/8/2011 2:08:18 AM >

(in reply to RD Oddball)
Post #: 7
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/8/2011 3:09:47 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		It's already in process of being addressed.

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RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/13/2011 3:18:31 PM   
Pzt_Serk


Posts: 92
Joined: 10/30/2008
Status: offline 		Hi Oddball,

I must say that I enjoy the new features in LSA(bridge demolition, bg stacking, etc) as they add a lot of depth to a gc. However, in my gc as germans, I made what I now consider a mistake by sending grabner at Nijmegen  bridge on turn one, absorbing the rather strong static bg there. Problem is, Grabner just does not have the points to buy the added team. The result is a lost static bg, cleared bridge for allies, and all that for no gain.

Si I'm asking, what are the reasons for the automatic merging of the static bgs when a regular bg move on their map. Is it engine limitation? Balance issue? Other? Is it moddable?

So far my oponent simply does not attack maps with static bgs that he knows will receive reinforcement later, like best bridge, because I'll wipe my own static bg at no cost for him.



Cheers,


(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 9
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 2/13/2011 10:00:38 PM   
kojusoki1

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 1/6/2009
Status: offline 		BTW we are playing the same campaign now but with switched sides and I founded out that PIATs work really good. They are not moded, and during night at 3lvl building at aroubd 50m i had 2 hits in 3 shots. Full command etc.
I would say it is becouse of the experience/morale but my FJ troops or SS had rised morale.
Seems Experience is a VERY importnat factor...

(in reply to Pzt_Serk)
Post #: 10
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/8/2011 10:14:54 PM   
Pantera

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		This is very useful information.
What kind of tool can I use to modify those .txt files. It sems that changing morale/experience is a lot of work!

(in reply to kojusoki1)
Post #: 11
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/9/2011 4:25:03 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

what are the reasons for the automatic merging of the static bg


There is no reason.... it is, just because it is.... this has been asked to be changed right from the very first pre-alpha test builds.


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RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/9/2011 10:50:57 AM   
kojusoki1

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 1/6/2009
Status: offline 		Pantera - use Excel. If you are familiar with this tool and you already have workbook (also in an excel file) it will take a few minutes and you are done.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 13
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/10/2011 1:55:56 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		Oddball....any chance the static BG issue is being looked at / considered?

(in reply to kojusoki1)
Post #: 14
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/10/2011 1:38:13 PM   
Pantera

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry, but I cannot find it!
I tried on http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/LSA/LSAmods.html
and
Error: 550 /pub/CloseCombatModernTactics/tools/LSA_Data_Workbook.zip: No such file or directory.


(in reply to kojusoki1)
Post #: 15
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/10/2011 3:22:58 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

Oddball....any chance the static BG issue is being looked at / considered?


It had been looked at when it was brought up before and it can be considered again, certainly.

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 16
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/10/2011 3:46:43 PM   
7A_Woulf

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 1/28/2010
Status: offline 		Would be really nice if the merging of Static BG were voluntarily, just like any regular BG's.

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Post #: 17
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/12/2011 9:10:13 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		Oddball
looks like the consensus is to change the automatic static BG merge... to merge optional like the rest of the Bg's. could matrix consider changing it

(in reply to 7A_Woulf)
Post #: 18
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/12/2011 2:56:06 PM   
7A_Woulf

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 1/28/2010
Status: offline 		I have a prime example of why to not automatic merge static BG:
I have started a few GC's against the German AI (at least one for every new patch) and every time Graebner moves his recon south to face 82nd AB; -in the process it becomes a kick-ass BG with troops from almost every branch of the Third Reich military, but the entire Nijmegen area is left without defenders...

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 19
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/12/2011 4:02:30 PM   
Manu

 

Posts: 186
Joined: 7/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 7A_Woulf

Would be really nice if the merging of Static BG were voluntarily, just like any regular BG's.


I second that!

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Post #: 20
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/12/2011 5:23:53 PM   
xe5

 

Posts: 783
Joined: 5/3/2009
Status: offline 		I'd settle for an automatic/voluntary merge switch in the Campaign.txt file. Making voluntary merge the default would mean that additional strategic layer AI programming would be needed to determine if the computer should merge.

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Post #: 21
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/13/2011 8:02:16 PM   
Cathartes

 

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

I'd settle for an automatic/voluntary merge switch in the Campaign.txt file. Making voluntary merge the default would mean that additional strategic layer AI programming would be needed to determine if the computer should merge.


What he said. If players have the choice, but the AI can't for practical programming reasons. I'm fine with that.

(in reply to xe5)
Post #: 22
RE: H2H Grand Campaign finished - thoughts - 4/13/2011 8:59:24 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		The Ai now makes the choice with mobile BG's... just needs to do it with all BG's not have an exception.

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