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First Tiger Tank Action? - 8/9/2002 12:37:29 PM   
Redleg


Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		The earliest reference to a Tiger battle I can find was in Don River Valley on January 7, 1943. According to Glantz, this was a "half-trained" battalion of Tigers. Result: 17 T34s and 20 Tigers out of action. Apparently a pre-mature use of a "super weapon".

Can anyone verify or add to this?
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- 8/9/2002 2:33:38 PM   
Resisti


Posts: 1351
Joined: 1/22/2001
From: Livorno, Italy
Status: offline 		John:

29 August 1942, it seems.

I remembered having read recently on Paul Carrel's "Scorched earth" that Tigers from sPzAbt 502 saw action in 1942 around Leningrad.
So, I've searched on Fabio Prado's site, and this is what I found:

"On 23 July 1942, Hitler had ordered the first company of Tigers to be formed quickly and sent to the front at Leningrad. The first unit to receive Henschel-Tigers was the 1. Kompanie of schwere Panzer Abteilung 502, four arriving on August 19 and 20. These Tigers, accompanied by four PzKpfw III Ausf N, arrived at the front and went into combat on 29 August 1942. Two of the four Tigers were still operational at the end of the day and the other two were recovered and repaired."

Hope Fabio wont ask me for royalties :D

I also remember there was a report of those first battles made by a Tigers Commander, on Fabio's site, but i don't find it anymore.

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Post #: 2
- 8/9/2002 3:53:21 PM   
OKW-73

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 9/1/2001
From: Cyberspace, Finland
Status: offline 		depends what you mean "Tiger battle", but regarding my sources there was at least 40 Tigers involved in battle of Kursk

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Post #: 3
I have the same information as Resisti.. - 8/9/2002 8:05:15 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		and Fabio...that a pre-mature action around Leningrad...in poor terrain for such vehicles...was the first time Tigers were thrown into combat due to Hitler's insistance to see how they performed.

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Post #: 4
- 8/9/2002 8:56:21 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
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From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Leningrad area was the starting point, but the Tigers did poorly. Most of them either bogged down or broke down. It was not an impressive beginning.

That would change. I'm remembering in my research of a battle, I believe in the Kharkov area in early 43 where Tigers surprised a flock of T-34s using their superior range and firepower to decimate a very shocked enemy.

It was in that battle that the phrase was adopted by German infantry, "Every time a T-34 sees a Tiger, it tips its hat" referrring to the turret of the Soviet tank being hurled into the air from a deadly 88mm round destroying it.

I'll have to do a little re-research to find that info, location and date of the battle.

Wild Bill

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Post #: 5
- 8/10/2002 1:11:24 AM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
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From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		It was near the town of Bogodukhov, NW of Kharkov, in the beginning of March, 1943. The 13 company of the Grossdeutschland Panzer Rgt attacked a group of T-34's of 3 Tank Army. The detail;s are in the "History of the GD, vol 2" , "Panzertruppen 2", and I believe "Scorched earth" but thi is only from memory so I may be off on the sources, but not the facts:D

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Post #: 6
- 8/10/2002 1:52:15 AM   
Redleg


Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		Interesting stuff. The Tiger fight Glantz describes (too briefly) involved -15 degree weather and sheets of ice. Perhaps that is why on 7 January 43, things did not go very well for the Tigers. The T34s were better suited for that type of weather/terrain.

Thanks for the inputs. I have it in my mind to create a scenario or two featuring early Tiger battles... information is relatively sparse in my small library.

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Post #: 7
Ok, here we go... - 8/10/2002 11:38:28 AM   
Fabio Prado

 

Posts: 503
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Status: offline 		The first Tiger tanks were sent to Heeres-Gruppe Nord in August 1942 to support the attempts to take Leningrad. Only a single platoon of four Tigers from the 1. Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abeilung 502 arrived on 29 August 1942. They weren't sent to action immediately as two of them had simply broken down mechanically. Another platoon of the 1.Kompanie with four PzKpfw III Ausf N with 7.5 cm KwK L/24 guns arrived at the front by 8 September.The Tiger's first actual engagement in combat ocurred in 7 October 1942, and took place south of Lake Ladoga, and the Tigers were impeded to advance by the swamps and other bad terrain.

The first attack was on 16 September (my birthday!) :) 1942, at the same region (south of Lake Ladoga), and the crews were impressed and enthusiastic with the performance of the 8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56 gun, and that no shot penetrated the armor, although all Tigers were damaged to some extent.

This is an excerpt of "Germany's Tiger Tanks - Tiger I & II: Combat Tactics" by Thomas L. Jentz, pp. 38 and 39.

About Kursk, from the same source: There were a total of 133 Tigers available at the start of the offensive - 45 serving with sPzAbt.503, 13 with 13 Kp.SSPzRgt1 (LSSAH), 14 with 8.Kp.SSPzRgt2 (Das Reich), 15 with s.Kp.SSPzRgt3 (Totenkopf), 15 with 13.Kp.PzRgtGD (Großdeutschland), and finally 31 with sPzAbt.505. A total of 19 Tigers arrived as replacements during Operation Zitadelle: 5 for 13.Kp.SSPzRgt1 (LSSAH), and 14 for sPzAbt. 505. From 5 July to 20 July 1943, 13 Tigers were lost (total writeoffs):
4 by sPzAbt.503, 1 by 13.Kp.SSPzRgt1 (LSSAH), 1 by 8.Kp.SSPzRgt2 (Das Reich), 1 by s.Kp.SSPzRgt3 (Totenkopf), and 6 by sPzAbt.505.

I guess this covers most doubts...

Fab knows his business...;)

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Post #: 8
Yessss! - 8/10/2002 11:58:38 AM   
Fabio Prado

 

Posts: 503
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wild Bill
[B] I'm remembering in my research of a battle, I believe in the Kharkov area in early 43 where Tigers surprised a flock of T-34s using their superior range and firepower to decimate a very shocked enemy.

It was in that battle that the phrase was adopted by German infantry, "Every time a T-34 sees a Tiger, it tips its hat" referrring to the turret of the Soviet tank being hurled into the air from a deadly 88mm round destroying it.

Wild Bill [/B][/QUOTE]

Now that was FUN! Tiger-fun, that is...;)
Goblin - Any comments?!?:D

Fab

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Post #: 9
- 8/10/2002 1:22:42 PM   
Redleg


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Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		Well, I have plenty of clues and facts to work from.

Enough that I will endeavor to do more research and design a battle around one or more of these.

Any specifics that are known about any and all of these actions will be greatly appreciated. Things like, exact places, descriptions of terrain, types of Soviet armor encountered, units, etc. Also, references. Our library here is really quite pathetic (not cheap to run, though) so but I will try to find out as much as possible.

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Post #: 10
- 8/11/2002 8:28:21 AM   
CCB


Posts: 4208
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Status: offline 		I thought I had read somewhere that of the early Tigers used at Leningrad in 1942, one had become bogged down in swampy terrain. During a local Russian counterattack, the crew abandoned it and it was subsequently captured by the Russians. Supposedly this tank is on display at a military museum in St. Petersburg.

Any truth to any of this?

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Post #: 11
- 8/11/2002 12:04:36 PM   
chief


Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		CCB I was looking for Tiger answers today and I did a search o "Tiger Tanks" and I came up with a few good sites and one of those (and I can't tell you which) had the same tank your talking about in Gorky Park with commisars looking it over. Wish I could be more precise but.....:) :o :cool:

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Post #: 12
Tigers and other beasts - 9/4/2002 7:10:26 PM   
MARKUSS

 

Posts: 220
Joined: 8/29/2002
From: Bolton, Lancashire, UK
Status: offline 		A query for all you techno-people who reprogramme Steel Panthers every so often.


Can anything be done to represent the different turret traverse rates of the tanks in the simulation, to better represent their real-life capabilities? Data can be supplied for this if you need it.

For example, the British and US tanks had the best traverse systems giving for the most part rapid traverse and the ability to fine-lay the gun under power. This was because British mechanisms from RAF bombers' power turrets were used to develop high-performance gear for tanks.

The Germans and Soviets had pretty bad sytems that could only point the gun in the general direction of the target under power and then needed fine adjustments by hand (in the case of PzKfw III - all by hand = no power). A Tiger I using fastest traverse took 60 minutes to get the turret through 360 degrees, compared to 15 seconds in the Sherman, M26 and M36, 10 in the Crusader, 12 in the Challenger, about 14 in the Cromwell, 20 in the Grant. Panthers and Tiger IIs (around 17-18 seconds) did better than Tiger I, but still without fine control. Ditto PzKfw IV (about 24 seconds).

In the game Tiger Is get away with an awful lot in this regard - shooting off in all directions at great speed.

Can this be rectified?

Regards


Charles

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Post #: 13
Re: Tigers and other beasts - 9/4/2002 8:31:06 PM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by MARKUSS
[B]A Tiger I using fastest traverse took 60 minutes to get the turret through 360 degrees...[/B][/QUOTE]

One hour!? Talk about slow going! :eek:

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Post #: 14
Re: Re: Tigers and other beasts - 9/12/2002 2:40:58 AM   
Fabio Prado

 

Posts: 503
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by wulfir
[B]

One hour!? Talk about slow going! :eek: [/B][/QUOTE]

No, no, no! "To quickly traverse onto a target, the Tiger I was outfitted with a hidraulic motor for the turret drive. The hydraulic drive traversed the turret at a maximum rate of 360 degrees in 60 SECONDS, dependent on the engine speed. An improved hydraulic traverse was introduced with the Tiger II in which the speed at which the turret was traversed under power was dependent on the engine speed and selection of low or high range by the gunner. In high range, the Tiger II turret could be traversed through 360 degrees in 19 seconds with an engine speed of 2000 rpm, 25 seconds at 1500 rpm, and 36 seconds at 1000 rpm..." Source: Germany's Tiger Tanks - Tiger I & Tiger II: Combat Tactics, by Thomas L. Jentz.

That was how slow the Tigers really were...;)

Fab

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Post #: 15
- 9/12/2002 8:16:03 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Listen to the man. No one knows the Tiger better than the "Tiger" ;)

Wild Bill

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Post #: 16
Tiger - 9/12/2002 7:09:01 PM   
MARKUSS

 

Posts: 220
Joined: 8/29/2002
From: Bolton, Lancashire, UK
Status: offline 		Sorry chaps!

For my "60 minutes [sic]" read "60 seconds". More haste, less speed methinks...


Charles

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Post #: 17
Tiger traverse - 9/12/2002 7:15:18 PM   
MARKUSS

 

Posts: 220
Joined: 8/29/2002
From: Bolton, Lancashire, UK
Status: offline 		Fab

You're missing the point, German traverse gear was jerky and slower than British and US gear, for a Tiger I to fire on different flanks meant turning the whole vehicle, which ruined accuracy.
I am aware of how German systems worked, depending on engine speed (as did some Allied systems - notably Challenger), but the point is that they shot slower because aiming adjustments had to be made by hand-cranking, and this applies for Panthers, Tiger II and PzKfw IV. In Steel Panthers the Tiger I turret turns as if Superman is powering it - not realistic.

Regards


Charles

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Post #: 18
Re: Tiger traverse - 9/14/2002 1:01:18 PM   
Fabio Prado

 

Posts: 503
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by MARKUSS
[B]Fab

You're missing the point, German traverse gear was jerky and slower than British and US gear, for a Tiger I to fire on different flanks meant turning the whole vehicle, which ruined accuracy.
I am aware of how German systems worked, depending on engine speed (as did some Allied systems - notably Challenger), but the point is that they shot slower because aiming adjustments had to be made by hand-cranking, and this applies for Panthers, Tiger II and PzKfw IV. In Steel Panthers the Tiger I turret turns as if Superman is powering it - not realistic.

Regards


Charles [/B][/QUOTE]

Yep. Tigers were slower to traverse than British and American tanks and I don't disagree with you at all. I just noted that typo and couldn't help myself from making some "roar"...It was more for the fun of saying "No, no, no! My kittens doesn't traverse in 60 minutes - they traverse in 60 seconds!" But of course everybody knows a Sherman can do a full traverse much faster...Remember "Kelly's Heroes"? :D

Anyway, if Tigers were used right, that is, firing from long range, I don't believe this didn't make any difference...But in Steel Panthers, Tigers are, in fact, always at a disadvantage, because the combat is always too close for the Tigers to be used to full advantage. What I know is that Tiger gunners ,being elite, generally could achieve greater killing hits than the average allied tank crews. Even if they had to do minor adjustments by hand.

Fab

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Post #: 19
Tiger, Tiger, burning bright! - 9/17/2002 7:02:40 PM   
MARKUSS

 

Posts: 220
Joined: 8/29/2002
From: Bolton, Lancashire, UK
Status: offline 		Agreed about the game ranges - just pisses me off when they quickly start shooting in all directions like a warship....


Thanks for the discussion

Regards



Charles

(in reply to Redleg)
Post #: 20
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