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RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22

 
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RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 11:49:31 AM   
alfonso

 

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From: Palma de Mallorca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

They're regular construction units, like the construction battalions.


Thanks for the information!

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RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 1:54:53 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		In general I rarely complain when players doing anything that the game engine allows; since this is a game, the concept of "gamey" almost never pops into my mind. However, several thoughts on these issues:

1. When in history did an army ever would immediately sack it's entire lower level officer corps - firing, replacing, executing 20 some odd generals on the first day of an invasion

2. Ditto about disbanding the physical HQs and returning all the staff and trucks to a national manpower pool, where they can show up in an infantry unit on the front line 2,000 miles away, in a week's time   

Yeah, it is brilliant game play , but, "come on, man." If Soviet Evacuation is now frozen for a move or 2, so should this gambit.



As for my air force, I know what the manual says, which is why I do what I do - upgrade my units asap as allowed. The concept of staging bases means the range of the units gets extended, though they can fly less missions; also - with with the new patch training missions casualties mount, and the way to avoid this is by...combat.

Marquo

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Post #: 62
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 2:29:44 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		I set up my HQ's for support unit transfer last night on turn 1.

I had STAVKA at 9 all the other HQ's at 0.

95% of support units are now at STAVKA. Western Front & Kiev M.D are the only holdouts with around 20 su's each.

Of course as per the manual the STAVKA RR brigades got distributed to some corps and the sappers too. Remember construction & engineers overide all support level settings apart from LOCKED.

Just thought I would confirm what the testers have said, as Ive just done it.

One thing, is it better to use the relocate unit function for a isolated HQ or allow the Axis to displace.

When I relocated I got a KIA message. Im using trial and error here, one day in a PBEM I will NEED to know.

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Post #: 63
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 3:22:48 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

1. When in history did an army ever would immediately sack it's entire lower level officer corps - firing, replacing, executing 20 some odd generals on the first day of an invasion

2. Ditto about disbanding the physical HQs and returning all the staff and trucks to a national manpower pool, where they can show up in an infantry unit on the front line 2,000 miles away, in a week's time   

Yeah, it is brilliant game play , but, "come on, man." If Soviet Evacuation is now frozen for a move or 2, so should this gambit.

Marquo


RE:

1. It may not have happen on the first day of the invasion, but it didn't take long after that. The Russians did execute a bunch of generals (baby purge). Pavlov (CG Western Front) was one of the most obvious victims. The Germans didn't quite execute anyone early, but as the Russian winter offensive took shape, some Generals were removed and stripped of rank and the right to wear the uniform. Later on in the war, they were shot as well after a "trial" by the flying courts martial unit set up by Hitler to ensure that the troops fought to the last man/round by making examples of certain officers who had failed to hold the line.

2. Point taken on the speed of reallocation of forces, although it could also be argued that it is a different set of guys going out while other guys are coming in. The Corps reorganization did take place fairly quickly tho. I am currently reading "Stalingrad" and the first part of the book is a review of what happen up to the time of the battle. The Russian Stavka realized pretty quickly the corps arrangement was unwieldy with the extra layer of command between Stavka and the fighting troops, so they got rid of that layer.

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Post #: 64
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 3:27:05 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
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Status: offline 		"One thing, is it better to use the relocate unit function for a isolated HQ or allow the Axis to displace."

These are the only 2 ways....the relocate function seems to kill leaders more than displace...but maybe this is a simple bias of observation. 


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Post #: 65
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 5:04:32 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
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From: Palma de Mallorca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"One thing, is it better to use the relocate unit function for a isolated HQ or allow the Axis to displace."

These are the only 2 ways....the relocate function seems to kill leaders more than displace...but maybe this is a simple bias of observation. 




Lol, same to me

I relocated just once, and the leader was killed, and then read the scary tale of Tullius Detritus killing Vasilevsky, if I remember it OK. I just stopped relocating...that's the origin of superstitions, isn't that?

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Post #: 66
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 8:18:09 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Replacing leaders costs APs, so changing out 20 of them on the first turn shouldn't be possible, at least for the Sovs.

There's plenty of abstraction that is done with the pool; everything, whether manpower or equipment, swooshes around from a city or annoymous location to a unit that could be thousands of miles away, in one turn.  If you want to feel that the HQ disbanded manpower shouldn't move so fast, it almost applies to everything.

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Post #: 67
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 8:21:25 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Relocating isolated HQs to deliberately kill crappy generals, OTOH, is a pretty slick move.

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Post #: 68
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 8:24:20 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		Ive been thinking... If you disband a corps HQ doncha just get a boatload of support squads going back to the pool? Instead of manpower?

I haven't checked so far... been busy plus the first turns are a time hog...

Another thing is those motorcycle regiments are such a vehicle hog, Im sure they took 100-200 vehicles.

They're on my MUST DISBAND list.

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Post #: 69
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 8:26:01 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Until the HQ displaces inside the pocket and attracts a good leader, who is then killed next turn.

I'd rather have the Axis displace my isolated HQ's, as there's more or less a guarantee they'll move out of the pocket, unlike when you relocate HQ's on the turn they're isolated.

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Post #: 70
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 8:51:45 PM   
bloomstombs2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

I keep trying to evacuate that brigade, using both the naval transport and amphibious transport modes; neither works.


I dont think you can evacuate them till the turn finns become active(during which they will kill those guys anyway);.

I think people are talking about moving out the attachments.

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Post #: 71
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 9:24:25 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
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From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		the brigade will auto ROUT from the port, the forts will surrender

The forts have a tank su attached I'll be reassigning that in the first few turns

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Post #: 72
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/13/2011 11:19:51 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		The units at Hanko activate before the Finns activate in that area. The Finns are frozen for 4 turns, the Soviets just for 3.

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Post #: 73
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/14/2011 12:57:13 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		I figured out my problem with the brigade in Finland, it was how the hexes light up when in naval transport mode.

Support squads are occasionaly converted to rifle squads, so the corps HQ disbandments don't help immediately.

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Post #: 74
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/15/2011 9:13:24 PM   
PsB


Posts: 7
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From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		good stuff

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Post #: 75
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/15/2011 10:21:32 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Please note; this "PsB" is not PzB and has been reported for impersonating.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PsB

good stuff



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"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
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Post #: 76
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/20/2011 4:23:13 AM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		What do you guys think about garrisoning Odessa with 2 strong rifle divisions and a commanding Airborne Corps HQ with 4 arty su's and 3 RR brigades.

I dont wanna waste an Army HQ on this mission.

This is against the AI on HARD.

I realise that when they are defeated they will rout from the port to somewhere else.

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Post #: 77
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/20/2011 5:42:38 AM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		I have not tried it on hard and perhaps this helps the Rumanian forces a lot, but you can do a lot better than 2 rifle divisions in Odessa. With a little work and time, you can fortify the whole area around Odessa and it can pay off IMO.

The screen shot shown is turn 7 and the basic defense I plan on is in place. The Axis advance is slowed considerably by my screening force. If the 11th Army does not make a beeline for Odessa (or 1st PG doesn't come south to help), you should be able to get this into place. I gave the Coastal army a good commander and some good support units including some rail engineers and then basically dug in with a full army (24 points worth) of troops. Trying to dig Russians out of level 4 forts with 2 hex attacks can be time consuming and brutal. The Rumanians can't get any place against this type of Odessa defense. (In fact, I attacked them a couple of times with success). I eventually lost the hex NE of Odessa, but that was the one I could afford to lose. The AI tried several attacks, but my guys managed to hold. Eventually, the front moved on and I had Odessa isolated in the rear, but with a good sized garrison like this, I raised hell with the troops left in the area. Eventually, I brought in a cav unit to help make things more annoying. You don't want to know what happen during winter.

At any rate, there are several pluses to doing this. The first thing is that if the German does not react to it quickly, you are going to be well dug in and it will take most of 11th army several turns to clean it up. Even if your units get knocked out, they will simply route, even if you are cut off. This causes a big delay for the Germans trying to get 11th army to the Crimea, not to mention causing 11th army a good amount of losses, hopefully wearing them down where they are not quite as effective trying to get across the Dnepr and then they get to deal with trying to break into the Crimea. Should the Germans choose to ignore it, they really can't mask it off that well. You have a lot of troops and can do an active defense to make a German see the error of their ways. You also mess with rail line repairs in the area and they have to go further north with the rail repair unit when they may have had plans to go through Odessa.

This does use a fair number of troops, but I think the risks are worth it to have a really early big road bump the Germans really can't surround and they simply can't anchor their line in the south until Odessa is taken.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 78
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/20/2011 6:05:35 AM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		I do have forts like that around Odessa. But I am struggling to prevent the panzers from breaking out. They turned south after they saw Kievs defensive value. I am delaying them till the Dnepr. I am struggling for manpower though. My manpower pool is empty every turn.

I dont like the idea of 70,000 men around Odessa though.

I have Leningrad blocked off with 4 full armies.

Moscow has lots of troops too. I would love to stop the cavalry getting manpower there not on refit and toe is turned down to 50%. I need anything which can hold a gun in my rifle divisions. Its still early though around turn 7.

Coastal army is at the entrances to the Crimea. With 7 Divisions and 3 forts. All been there since turn 2.

I simply dont have the manpower for your kind of defence.

Moscow comes first. Leningrad second. Then protection of southern industry.

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Post #: 79
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/20/2011 7:06:44 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Two divisions defending Odessa on normal should be plenty good; I don't know about on hard.



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Post #: 80
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/20/2011 3:01:25 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
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Status: offline 		That is one of the things nice about this game; more than one way to do things. I also put in a strong defense for Leningrad (AI stopped at the Luga River), but did not do a huge build up for Moscow until a bit later. (Figure Odessa is on the door step, Leningrad is a favorite target and closer, and Moscow is the farthest away and easiest to get troops to, etc). I find Odessa to be an interesting gambit to play around with and while I think it can be worthwhile, I am sure there are counters to it, etc. 

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Post #: 81
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/21/2011 6:48:29 PM   
GFelz

 

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From: Canada
Status: offline 		Regarding Corp HQs, I have chosen to park them in the rear till the auto disband. It cleans up the important parts of the map and saves APs.

My question now is, how do you build RR Brigades? I can seem to find it. I will be doing T3 shortly.

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Post #: 82
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/21/2011 7:11:22 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
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From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GFelz

Regarding Corp HQs, I have chosen to park them in the rear till the auto disband. It cleans up the important parts of the map and saves APs.

My question now is, how do you build RR Brigades? I can seem to find it. I will be doing T3 shortly.

Disbanding Corps is around 80 AP's. I would rather keep them they have mostly disbanded on turn 6 for me.

To build support unit.

Open HQ window

Click assign form

Click build new checkbox for new unit, select su to pull from higher HQ

Click on support unit to build or to assign

I am moving my mountain divisions to garrison duties such as the Crimea entrance. Because Ive had two SHATTER and they dont come back.

They are better there rebuilding than on the front line.

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Post #: 83
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/21/2011 7:32:17 PM   
GFelz

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Cookie, I'll look for it and try it out.

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Post #: 84
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/21/2011 8:14:18 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		Hmm, I didn't realize mountain divisions might not come back, that would be rather annoying, about half of them are more or less doomed or at best start in a risky location.

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Post #: 85
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/21/2011 8:21:02 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"One thing, is it better to use the relocate unit function for a isolated HQ or allow the Axis to displace."

These are the only 2 ways....the relocate function seems to kill leaders more than displace...but maybe this is a simple bias of observation. 




Lol, same to me

I relocated just once, and the leader was killed, and then read the scary tale of Tullius Detritus killing Vasilevsky, if I remember it OK. I just stopped relocating...that's the origin of superstitions, isn't that?


Yes, you are correct. I did assassinate Vassilevski on Turn 1 The good thing is that I don't think I'll need him to massacre my PBEM opponent

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a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

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Post #: 86
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/21/2011 8:58:42 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		Hey PzB, right, a clown is impersonating you

For those who don't know PzB, he is one of the BEST and OLD WitP PBEM players

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Post #: 87
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/27/2011 2:37:31 AM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		Enough of the brown-nosing let's get back on topic.

What do you guys do with the Anti-Tank brigades?

I used most for speed bumps which promptly SHATTERED. Which I now regret.

I'm now running outta MANPOWER every turn so I have begun to DISBAND the 3 remaining brigades. The devices go back to the pool, it's the manpower I crave.

Notice the tooltip when you hover over DISBAND UNIT? Its now fairly obvious. That manpower is seperate from devices and the two are put together on deployment.

I am also wondering whether to DISBAND the AA units, yes I will need them in the future, but surely the manpower can be put to better use, in making guns,BIG GUNS and lots of them!

I'm also PISSED that my Mountain Divisions SHATTERED they aren't auto replaced unlike the other units. I now have them busy fortifying the Crimea. A secondary role for them, so they may be preserved.

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Post #: 88
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/27/2011 3:11:21 AM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		If a sub unit has a larger version, I disband the smaller units. (IE, since there are sapper regiments, I disband the sapper battalions). Motorcycle regiments go away as well. I didn't do a lot with the AT units to start with, but I have been disbanding them to get those 85MM AT guns back into the pool as sub units. 

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Post #: 89
RE: How to organize Red Army on Jun 22 - 2/27/2011 3:20:53 AM   
randallw

 

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Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		They are not 85 mm AT guns, they are 85 mm AA guns. 85 mm AT guns show up in the 2nd half of 1943 ( or later ).

AT brigades are semi-pitiful; they get clobbered in the early part of a battle, since they have no howitzer type equipment, and there are no sappers, so they dig in verrrrry slowly.  The 45 mm AT guns are decent but the amount is not great.  Pre-war planning, the brigades were supposed to be big, with over 100 AT guns but apparently they failed to build enough.


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Post #: 90
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