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Question of good taste - 12/20/2000 7:03:00 PM

frank1970

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From: Bayern
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I am from Germany. I live there. My parents taught me to be nice to persons of other peoples. This seams not to be the fact for some of you guys out there! I read a lot of postings in this forum, it is great, a lot of nice persons out there, much knowledge. But one point disgusts me: Why do you think you have to call the Germans Nazis? Has that to be that way? Don�t we have a nationality? It is ok to say Jerries, it is acceptable to say krauts, it is NOT acceptable to say Nazi. I speak of Allies, of GIs, maybe Tommies. I do not say beefs or chewinggums. I do not at all say apartheiters. Would it be possible, gentlemen to speak in a cultivated way about people from other parts of the world? Even when there was a war between our nations? This name NAZIS is not only hurting to everybody who had relatives in the Wehrmacht (Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, Belgians, ...), it is also simply not true! The NSDAP had not 80 million members in 1945, it had about 10 million. Officers in the Kriegsmarine were not allowed to be member of any party. The tradition of German military is that the soldier has to be unpolitical. Most officers were educated this way. Even in the Luftwaffe were only very little numbers of Nazis. The German name for German soldiers was "Landser". This word means "person who fights for his country". So friends be so good as to think about what you write in your posts. This would be very nice. Merry Xmas Frank

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- 12/20/2000 7:31:00 PM

Huffy

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point well taken...all germans are not nazi's...I don't think anyone in here will mind taking care of your simple request. Take care ,...and Merry Christmas to you also... Huffy

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Post #: 2

- 12/20/2000 10:10:00 PM

Charles22

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Frank's concern can be a little bit complicated, for if a Russian would make the same objection to Russian forces being called Soviet, it's not quite so easy. Though there can always be nasty people, as I see it, calling Russian forces, Soviet, is not the same thing. You recall that Russia and many other nations were calling themselves the "USSR" for the longest, and of course it was the USSR during WWII. The name of the territory was political by nature (the first 's' in USSR means 'Soviet'). Look on the maps of the world at the period and you will see this was so. OTOH, Germany though it had a national party in the Nazis in WWII, they did not call their 'nation' Nazi. Again, maps of the period would prove this out. BTW, when Germany was split, West Germany was simply called that, while the communist comtrolled sector of East Germany again assumed a national name of political nature, though in their case you might've often found maps that called it East Germany instead (the Olympics would show otherwise). So, for what it's worth, that may be sometimes why people refer to German WWII forces as 'nazi', because there was a legitimate reason for calling what we generally regard as Russians, to be called Soviet. Also, there's more secondary reasons such as the German forces displaying swasticas so prominently on their units back then.

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- 12/20/2000 10:27:00 PM

AmmoSgt

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The "german" military regardless of political affiliation took a personal oath of alegiance to hitler as i understand it .. all very uncomfortable for folks these days i would assume ..but i spent 12 years in germany in the U S Army and from time to time you would still run into Bundeswher units that claimed they were still whermacht and said whatever his faults hitler was a good man ... of course they only hated the communists not the americans or british i dunno this is a WW2 game the germans have swasticas on the their equipment if they are marked historically got a SS trooper on the main game page if there is some shame in that then maybe these remarks are better directed to those that would glorify the nazi's rather than those who talk more in a game dialect when talking about the dreaded Hun and the bloodthirsty Ami's

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- 12/20/2000 10:41:00 PM

Warrior

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Frank, I'm sure no one in this Forum means any disrespect to the German people in general. WWII ended more than 50 years ago, and while it has become politically incorrect to call Russians "Reds," Japanese "Japs", or Germans "Nazi's", we are talking about events of long ago. Get over it, we like you. [This message has been edited by REMF (edited December 20, 2000).]

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Post #: 5

- 12/20/2000 11:16:00 PM

Akmatov

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While on the subject of good taste, did this wonderfully developed and engrossing simulation have to showcase a recruiting poster image of an SS-mann on its logo? In the last year I've been doing work which involved some research into the Nazi period of German history and there is nothing admirable about the SS in any of its various forms. Some apologists claim that the Waffen-SS was a purely military organization, however this is not really true and there was a great deal of personnel movement between the various portions of Himmler's empire. This is not a big deal, but by glamorizing the SS, we as gamers, are contributing to a misrepresentation of a very nasty historical reality. Reference the issue of Nazi and Soviet. The word Nazi is a reference to a political party and really isn't an accurate way to refer to a people or a country. Under the political control of the Nazi party, the country remained Deutschland, or Germany. However, during the period when Russia was controled by the Communist Party, the name of that country was changed from Russia to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, or USSR. Therefore refering to the people of the USSR as Soviets, from the Russian word for Union, is correct, just as the people of Germany were called Germans. During that period the term Soviet was in common use by the Russians themselves as a term for all the members of the USSR, many of whom were not ethnically Russian. If one insists on calling Germans during the Nazi period Nazis, then one logically must call citizens of the USSR Communists not Soviets. Maybe I'm being pedantic, but words, and images, do matter as they shape our view of the world and our history. Well, my panzer has warmed up on this cold morning so I'll climb down out of my ivory tower and roar off in search of Godless Commie Soviets to blast.

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Post #: 6

- 12/21/2000 12:36:00 AM

Peregrine Falcon

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It think that this SPWAW "logo" or title screen is just plain BAD (hell, entire intro video is!) - from design point of view - not because it is simply WWII-era SS-recruit poster. If I could get a chance to redesign it, I would do it. Currently is has some sort of ugly "WWII-comics"-look. (And yes. I hate personally when some people like still to call germans as -nazis-)

quote:

Originally posted by Akmatov: [B]While on the subject of good taste, did this wonderfully developed and engrossing simulation have to showcase a recruiting poster image of an SS-mann on its logo? [B]

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Post #: 7

- 12/21/2000 2:29:00 AM

Flashfyre

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quote:

but by glamorizing the SS, we as gamers, are contributing to a misrepresentation of a very nasty historical reality.

To say that this game, or it's designers, are glamorizing the SS, or any other specific unit of WWII, is an injustice. To glamorize is to cover the loathesome with loveliness. I do not feel that has been done. The SS, in their ideals, were misguided by a few mentally imbalanced leaders. They responded, in many cases, as a military man should; they followed orders. That these orders were heinous is a matter of fact; that the men did not refuse to follow them is a tragedy. When we, in this enlightened, politically-correct time, deem it necessary to change or cover up history, we do a disservice to our forebears, and to our children. To remember is to learn; to forget, an invitation to repeat. I agree, the use of the term "Nazi" is abhorrent, in the main because it represents the idealogy of a madman. As has been pointed out, not everyone in Germany was a member of the Nazi Party; but those few who were perpetrated the most crimes against humanity. I do not agree, however, that we should censor the images presented. If they offend, then they are doing the job they should; reminding you of what has been before, that it may never be again. To remove them from the collective consciousness will, inevitably, cause them to return, stronger, and with less chance of being deemed anathema to the public good. Tamper with the memories of the past, and you are doomed to repeat them. ------------------ The Motor Pool http://www.geocities.com/aurion_eq/index.html?976419304550 [email]kmcferren@cvn.net[/email]

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Post #: 8

- 12/21/2000 3:39:00 AM

Warhorse

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Gentlemen/Ladies, please let's keep this a peaceful forum for what it is, the support of SPWAW! Please leave politics and religion out of it, as these subjects will undoubtedly always rile someone up

I'm a member of the Matrix team, and I assure you we are not neo-nazi's, nor was the logo supposed to imply anything like that! We could be looked at as murderers here in the U.S. for using the Atomic Bomb, but that was 50+ years ago, a different time, they didn't have our hindsight, **** happened, and now it's time to move on, can't we all get along??! Happy holidays ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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Post #: 9

- 12/21/2000 5:52:00 AM

Panzer Capta

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We always have craved realism in our wargames. And although the double lightning bolts and swastikas are symbolic of a terrible evil, the fact remains that they did exsit and, i for one, am glad they are portrayed. For those truely offended, the option to remove the swastikas were graciously provided by the designers.

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- 12/21/2000 6:07:00 AM

AmmoSgt

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Panzer don't get me wrong my whole point was i think folks lapse into game lingo and use terms that were historically used to dehumanize their oponents .. not in fact meaning to open old wounds ..I do not think ANY nation is exempt from the attrocities that their history encompasses ... If we "take sides" in support of either the technology or the honorable heroics of our favorite game side i think thats fine ..but the "other" side is going to "say things" that could offend... I say take it ALL in the spirit of the game the good the bad the glory and the horror

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- 12/21/2000 6:53:00 AM

Panzer Capta

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Point well taken AmmoSgt.

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Post #: 12

- 12/21/2000 7:05:00 AM

Captn_Jack

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From the coversations in the posts that I have seen here, I don't feel anything derogatory is nature is intended for any "people" here. It is all within the context of the "game" which I hope stays as historically accurate as possible. This includes the insignias, uniforms, whatever else is involved. It is so much better than having a Red team vs a Blue team. Should certain images offend somebody, they have the right not to look at them. Those who are not offended should also have the right to see them as they really were, and know what they stood for. I for one, have been fortunate never have had to go to war for anything. Many others in my family were not as lucky. There were good and bad people from all countries in all the wars. I watched a program on History channel the other night, that showed newsreel and video of fighting and conditions in WWII. Letters written to wives, mothers and familes were being read by the narrator while the scenes were shown. One talked of the killing of Russian prisoners by the Germans. In 6 months, 600,000 prisoners were killed by the Germans. In a German soldiers letter home to his mother, he told of how a young soldier, a friend of his did not understand why they were killing the prisoners, and ended up killing himself, leaving behind a wife and 2 kids because he could not come to terms with what they were doing. My father in law was captured and held in a German POW camp for 2 years. He tells many stories, of both cruel and compassionate Germans at the camp. He said one guard that would take them to town for work details, always would sneak them into a local pub where they were given extra food and drink, sometimes even being allowed time with some of the girls there. He said every time he saw Sgt. Shultz on Hogans Heroes, it reminded him off this guard, because he looked so much like him. But in the same camp, was the guard who cut off 3 of his fingers, for no reason other than that he could do it. My father was shot in WWII, almost lost his arm. A cousin had lost most of his insides in Vietnam. He was shot, and laying in a ditch. The person who shot him, walked up and kindly put 7 more slugs from an AK47 right into his stomach. My cousin lived, and he to this day can describe the guy who shot him down to the last detail, including the smile on his face as he pulled the trigger. My uncle was captured in the Korean war and held for several years. He weighed 80lbs when they got him out. There was no compassion there for him. The few times I have heard him talk of his time there, were short, brutal and heavily tainted by a veil of alcohol. So just keep in mind, whatever is said, is said within the context of the game, and that is all it is, a game, but with a lot of history behind it. CJ

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Post #: 13

- 12/21/2000 8:47:00 AM

GrinningDwarf

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First, let me say that I believe historical accuracy must be preserved. SS runes and swastikas have their place in historical games (and scale models), and trying to 'clean a game up' by removing them is wrong. Having said that, I've sometimes wondered why game companies, with such a wide choice of cover topics to choose from, seem to emphasise SS runes and swastikas. Off the top of my head, we've got the guy with the SS helmet runes on SP:W@W, the guy with the prominent SS collar runes on Up Front, and the guy with the skull and crossbones on his collar on Squad Leader. Could the same thing (advertising a game and making it attractive to buyers) have been accomplished using regular Wermacht Landser's? Just something I've thought about on occaision. [This message has been edited by GrinningDwarf (edited December 20, 2000).]

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- 12/21/2000 11:13:00 PM

Akmatov

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I hope my thoughts were not taken to suggest we shouldn't portray events historically, it is silly to airbrush out authentic 'offensive' symbols. One of the things I like about the vast majority of the wargaming community is their focus on the reality of events, not the myth. We must attempt to remember the past as it was, not as we might prefer it to have been. Flashfyre, I certainly do not think we should ever censor facts or images. Sometimes I just wonder about our choices. Both my father, USA Infantry, and my father-in-law, German Landser, lost a limb in WW2, either glamorizing or 'prettifying' that past would be an injustice. I think Grinning Dwarf expressed my thoughts better than I did. Why is it that a popular choice of imagry is that of the SS? I certainly hope no one, i.e. Warhorse, thought I was suggesting anything negitive about the guys who have worked so hard to give us this great game.

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- 12/21/2000 11:35:00 PM

JTGEN

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Good point Calling Germans Nazis could offend them. Calling Soviets Russians maybe offends those Tshetchens who fought against Germans and other minorities who did the same. Afterall we do not call Americans indian killers or slavers or other such things. I think all countries did their share in war crimes, the ones commited by those who won just are not talked about. Main point is that even if calling Germans Nazi's is somewhat understandable mistake we should remember that it can be really offending. Other thing is signes. If you see a swastika and automatically think nazi's it is in your head. It is an ancient symbol widely used in history. For example Finnish airforce marking of blue swastika on white had nothing to do with nazi's. It was used when hitler was still in WW 1 ditchess and the nazi parti did not even exist.

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- 12/21/2000 11:50:00 PM

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quote:

Originally posted by Akmatov: I think Grinning Dwarf expressed my thoughts better than I did. Why is it that a popular choice of imagry is that of the SS? I certainly hope no one, i.e. Warhorse, thought I was suggesting anything negitive about the guys who have worked so hard to give us this great game.

Remember that Germanys war was very much the nazi partys war. The war against USSR did not make much sense other than under Nazi ideology, and if you belived in Nazi ideology, the war did not make much sense without the atack on USSR. A lot of atrocity atrocities that happened did not make muck sense if not under nazi race ideology. Whether the average German soldier were Nazi or not, nazi ideolgy and symbols are a natural part of anything relating to Germany during WW II. The emphasising on Waffen SS forces might be a bit excessive, but the swastika is almost unavoidable if you do not want to prettify.

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- 12/22/2000 12:38:00 AM

Warhorse

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quote:

I think Grinning Dwarf expressed my thoughts better than I did. Why is it that a popular choice of imagry is that of the SS? I certainly hope no one, i.e. Warhorse, thought I was suggesting anything negitive about the guys who have worked so hard to give us this great game. [/B]

Akmatov, no, didn't take it to mean that at all

It's real hard to portray feelings meant when writing, no offense taken pal!! Take care ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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Post #: 18

- 12/22/2000 1:28:00 AM

Wild Bill

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"Name calling" is always a problem. The association of a name to a life style or a way of thinking is a problem all over the world. Even in the USA, some of us who live in the south have a problem being called "yankees" (from a war that took place nearly 150 years ago). Then we have the infamous "n" word that is so offensive to people of the black community and is still used in some circles. Nazi, Jap, Polack, Gook, Chink, Cracker, mick, Spook, Nip, Kraut, Jerry, Fritz, Limey, Frog, Ami, Dogface, Doughfoot, etc, etc. These are all "nick-names" used sometimes in a derogatory and sometimes with no real intention of demeaning another culture, race, or country. We are living in a politically correct age and we should try to use caution. At the same time, we are referring at least in the context of this game to an event when countries that are now cordial to a degree, were intent on conquering, killing and overpowering one another. In a life and death struggle, with "no holds barred," name calling was common. Often those terms are used to refer to the past. Thus a little understanding and less sensitivity is needed today. Now if I write a German friend (I have a large number of them via the net) and call him a "Nazi" he would be very offended...and rightfully so. So please consider such references in the context of WW2 and not today. No one here in our Matrix Group and I am sure no one on the forum has an ax to grind with any country now with what transpired 60 years ago. Frank, I think I speak for all of us. If you or anyone one else of the Germanic culture has been offended by unintentional names, we do apologize and will try to be more circumspect about the use of identifying terms in the future. ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games [This message has been edited by Wild Bill (edited December 21, 2000).]

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Post #: 19

- 12/22/2000 5:48:00 AM

Fabs

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I have often wondered myself about the endless fascination with the Waffen SS that permeates our hobby. Ultimately, I think it is about their "louche" reputation as the Hells Angels of the battlefield. They are mythologized and apologized for, because in many people's minds they epitomize what is soldierly more than any other group of soldiers. I am no fan, but I can see the point. Right or wrong? I suspect different people will give different answers. ------------------ Fabs

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Post #: 20

- 12/22/2000 7:59:00 AM

MindSpy

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank: [B]I am from Germany. I live there. But one point disgusts me: Why do you think you have to call the Germans Nazis? MindSpy I`d say that many things that are used as symbols by any authority often tend to carry the association, and that as time passes the notoriety of the authority will eventually cause a triggered response to the symbols, as a result of learning. I don`t recall learning in school or in proper literature and apropriate learning materials that the Germans were NAZI`s. I don`t even recall being told by any proper source that the symbols and units were permanent. More importantly units that were MORE loyal to the Party would of course have the greatest appeal and glamour from their roles and accomplishments. That is of course the whole point behind political armed forces vs National armed forces. But it would be foolish to think that the politically inclined armed forces would behave similarly to regular armed forces which are known to have restraint problems of their own. If you take offense to reading NAZI Germany then I can understand you would point it out. If you take offense to a Republican or Monarchy designation it would also be something you would point out! However it is not incorrect to call Germany: NAZI Germany. Suffice it to say, no loyalty test would be applied to take offense to NAZI termination today. HOWEVER, ... and of course WAW is not a modern game MindSpy

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Post #: 21

- 12/22/2000 11:36:00 AM

Flashfyre

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As to the use of the SS symbology in wargaming, I believe it comes down to a subconscious desire to choose the most recognizable symbol to market an item. And who would disagree that the SS branch collar device, or the Death's Head (Totenkopf) Division's unit patch, are the most recognizable of Germany's armed forces? They are recognized because they are associated with some of the most heinous atrocities committed in history. These symbols were repeatedly shown to the Allies, both military and civilian, to engender a hatred so great that nothing less than unconditional defeat would satisfy them. Right or wrong, the use of symbols to present a product/idea is the heart of marketing. And, unfortunately, due to a lack of education, many of the younger generations lack the first-hand knowledge of what these symbols actually represented. And on the subject of the swastika....it is true that the symbol, in various incarnations, has been in use for centuries. Hitler chose to alter it a bit and use it for his own purpose. However, it is still only a political symbol. The German armed services never used it in their unit markings....the Iron Cross was the symbol used. Just as the US used a single white star, not the stars-and-bars, the swastika was the national flag, and only appeared as such. True, many German vehicles draped a flag over their vehicles, but only for ID purposes for Luftwaffe pilots. ------------------ The Motor Pool http://www.geocities.com/aurion_eq/index.html?976419304550 [email]kmcferren@cvn.net[/email]

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Post #: 22

- 12/22/2000 12:26:00 PM

GrinningDwarf

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quote:

Originally posted by Flashfyre: As to the use of the SS symbology in wargaming, I believe it comes down to a subconscious desire to choose the most recognizable symbol to market an item. And who would disagree that the SS branch collar device, or the Death's Head (Totenkopf) Division's unit patch, are the most recognizable of Germany's armed forces?

This is what I think, too. I think it's the most obvious emblem of WW2. An American soldier might not stand out to non-grognards or non-history buffs as neccesarily portraying WW2, and I don't think most of the American public would recognize a British, Canadian, or Soviet soldier at all.

quote:

And on the subject of the swastika....The German armed services never used it in their unit markings....the Iron Cross was the symbol used. Just as the US used a single white star, not the stars-and-bars, the swastika was the national flag, and only appeared as such. True, many German vehicles draped a flag over their vehicles, but only for ID purposes for Luftwaffe pilots.

True in most cases, but the swastika was used on Luftwaffe aircraft rudders.

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Post #: 23

- 12/22/2000 2:51:00 PM

JNL

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I'm an American citizen currently living in Germany. I have a number of German friends and acquaintances. I would no more call them a "Nazi" than I would call my afro-American friends the infamous "N" word. It is stupid to characterize any individual based upon their appearance, ethnicity, or country of birth. My father is Italian - my mother is Hispanic. There is a couple of different names you can call me to get me riled up. I believe the original post was not centered around whether the SS should/shouldn't be used or modeled in the game. It was intended to request that during posting - that we not refer to the German Army or the German people as whole - as Nazis. Reasonable request - I intend to honor it.

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Post #: 24

- 12/22/2000 3:45:00 PM

AmmoSgt

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JNL yeah but ya see thats the part i don't understand ... we shouldn't call folks that ...but it's ok to depict that in the logo and for some to take the upside of the SS myths and the whole german WW2 superiority thingy and thats OK ?? I would think if hearing germans called Nazi's was bothersome then they wouldn't get past the guy in the recruiting poster ?

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Post #: 25

- 12/22/2000 3:57:00 PM

Fuerte2

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To me the Nazi thing is some kind of joke today. When we are playing SPWAW with my friend, the other of us is a "Nazi pig" and the other one is a "communist pig" or something. Of course I wouldn't call any German citizen a Nazi today (except those that really are), and I don't believe that anyone here has done it either.

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Post #: 26

- 12/22/2000 4:02:00 PM

frank1970

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You can find pictures in every German history school book showing the swatiska or some SS runes. We have to learn from our history, so we have to know what happend and how we could prevent it happening again. The usage or glorification of NS symbols is forbidden in Germany. Even the words "I am proud to be German" let look you like a criminal/neonazi (buttons with this words on it are banned by law). [This message has been edited by Frank (edited December 22, 2000).]

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(in reply to frank1970)

Post #: 27

- 12/22/2000 10:51:00 PM

Charles22

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline

Flashfyre: Please forgive me at this point if someone else has already pointed this out, as I haven't read the entire thread, but you said

quote:

The German armed services never used it in their unit markings....the Iron Cross was the symbol used. Just as the US used a single white star, not the stars-and-bars, the swastika was the national flag, and only appeared as such. True, many German vehicles draped a flag over their vehicles, but only for ID purposes for Luftwaffe pilots.

That's not true. Have you ever seen 'both sides' of the German soldier's helmet? The Waffen-SS had the SS runes one either both sides, or SS runes on one side with an eagle holding a swastika on the other (not the Luftwaffe eagle). On the other hand, the regular Wehrmacht soldier has a tri-colored shield on one side, while it has the eagle holding the swastika on the other. Also, look at the German planes, swastikas on the tails. Look at the German Naval Ensign of the period, swastika there also. The swastika and runes (occult stuff you know), were painted all over the entire society, so naturally the armed services had it too. This didn't make individuals Nazis, but it sure put out for all the world to see, who was in charge of that nation, so indeed, it's not entirely untrue to refer to the Germans of the period as 'Nazis', because the Nazis not only were in charge, but had their plumage everywhere.

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Post #: 28

- 12/22/2000 11:25:00 PM

Flashfyre

Posts: 330
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: Waynesboro, PA, USA
Status: offline

You are correct, Charles22. The eagle/swastika was worn on uniforms, helmets, and painted on airplanes; much like the US star-and-bars was worn as a patch by all US military personnel. As a rule, all military units were required to display national symbols for identification. As for the naval ensign, that was a flag, so of course it was the national symbol (as I stated). My point was that the swastika was not used as vehicle markings. In the main, the Iron Cross was the recognized unit marking. To refer to every German man and woman of the time as a Nazi is incorrect. Less than half the population were card-carrying members of the party. That would be akin to saying that every American in '41 was a Democrat, because that was the political party in power at the time. I, for one, choose not to use the term 'Nazi' in reference to anyone, without proof that they are, indeed, a member of that ideology. ------------------ The Motor Pool http://www.geocities.com/aurion_eq/index.html?976419304550 [email]kmcferren@cvn.net[/email]

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The Motor Pool http://www.geocities.com/aurion_eq/index.html?976419304550 [email]kmcferren@onemain.com[/email]

(in reply to frank1970)

Post #: 29

- 12/23/2000 9:44:00 AM

MECH ENGINEER

Posts: 37
Joined: 11/5/2000
From: Canandaigua, NY, USA
Status: offline

Frank, sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me. Want to know why? Because I'm a man and can hack it. Yes, it is me you,ve whining about. I used the term "Nazi" because the old soldier discussing American tactics was former SS, thus old Nazi. I'm sick of all this political correctness ****. Tell it to me like it is. I spent 19 months sitting in the Fulda Gap with H Co 2/11 ACR and once not did any GERMAN ever thank me. No. Do I whine? No. Did the GERMAN thugs who beat the **** out of me for dare going in their gasthaus. Did they ever say,"sorry". No. Do I whine? No. Do I bear grudges? No. When I used to overhear the old GERMANS males refer to me and my fellow soldiers as "Americanish schiess" or however write out american **** in german. Did they hurt my feelings? No. Do I bear any grudges? No. Are we not men here, can we take it. Or if I post a message do I have to worry about hurting somebodys feelings when I tell it like it is. If I want to offend you, I won't stop at one word. Frank, go to Napster, artist Dennis Leary, song, The Asshole Song. You'll see where I'm coming from.

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(in reply to frank1970)

Post #: 30