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Changes in the Game - 2/10/2011 6:25:23 PM

Schanilec

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Been playing several scenarios and I noticed a couple of things. Overrruns aren't as automatic against disrupted units as they used to be in the original series.

Also I find firing star shells is impossible during night time scenarios. I cannot seems to find units with the star shell symbol for the capabilty of firing strar shells like in the old series. What am I missing?

Could someone enlighten me on the star shell issue. No pun intended but it happened.

And what other functions have been modified, changed and/or enhanced from the original game?

Thanks in advance.

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/10/2011 7:29:57 PM

Jason Petho

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Good day, Schanilec.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

Been playing several scenarios and I noticed a couple of things. Overrruns aren't as automatic against disrupted units as they used to be in the original series.

That is correct, with the optional Extreme Assault rule on, overruns are not a walk in the park as they used to be. Morale is now taken into account as part of the formula for the defenders. If you haven't reduced the morale of the defending unit, odds are good you won't be successful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

Also I find firing star shells is impossible during night time scenarios. I cannot seems to find units with the star shell symbol for the capabilty of firing strar shells like in the old series. What am I missing?

Could someone enlighten me on the star shell issue. No pun intended but it happened.

Most units can fire a starshell so a special symbol isn't required.

quote:

Star Shells: In some night scenarios, Star Shells may be available to one or both sides. If available, they will be listed blow in the Unit Display below Smoke or in the Status Bar at the bottom of the screen. The Star Shell will illuminate its hex and the adjacent six hexes. Any unit with an assault value greater than 0 and at least 20 Action Points remaining can attempt to fire a Star Shell. You can fire a Star Shell by selecting a unit, depress ALT + SHIFT and right click on the target hex while if Fire Mode. Each attempt has a 40% chance of success, unless the unit is accompanied by the units Leader. If a Leader is present, the based chance is increased by a number 5 times the Leaders Command Rating. If the Star Shell attack is successful, there is a 40% chance it will land in the target hex; otherwise it will land in one of the bounding six hexes. The range a unit can fire a Star Shell is two hexes, unless being fired from an indirect fire unit, in which case it equals half of the units maximum range (Fractions Rounded Up).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec
And what other functions have been modified, changed and/or enhanced from the original game?

Indirect Fire will have a higher chance (4%, I believe) of disabling armour.

AT guns smaller than 50mm may remain hidden after the first shot.

Some engineers can "upgade" improved positions to trenches.

Some engineers can build hexside, medium bridges.

Most combat engineers can build a hexside, foot bridge

Hope that helps
Jason Petho

< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 2/10/2011 7:30:56 PM >

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/10/2011 8:06:04 PM

Schanilec

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That's right I did notice the hidden gun after first shot in the Hellzapoppin' scenario & one of the Market Garden scenarios.

And that bunkers are not as impregnable as they used to be. That is nice. I hated spending almost an entire scenario trying to knockout a single bunker. Still very tough though.

I'll have to try another night scenario for that star shell issue.

Good to know the indirect fire enhancement.

And the engineers. Can't wait to get home and try out those new functions. How big of a river can they bridge?

Thanks for helping me out Jason.

Hope you have a great day.

BTW: you may call me Marc or as almost everyone around here does; Schani.

I think I'll bust out of here now and head home. Turn the heat on in the garage and hopefully get the snowblower running,

then go in and play.

Again thanks.

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/11/2011 5:13:14 PM

Jason Petho

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Not a problem at all, Marc.

Regarding Engineers, they can only build bridges across hexsides and not all engineers have these abilities.

I would recommend playing the new Bootcamp scenarios and use the MCS BOOTCAMP document to see some of the new features in action.

Most of the MCS Bootcamp scenarios are in East Front, but there is one in West Front (pits the US vs Soviets)

Any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Take care and good luck,

Jason Petho

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/11/2011 8:55:03 PM

Schanilec

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Never thought of Boot Camp. Thank you. I guess I figured they were the same as the original. Hopefully there is one for night. Still couldn't get star shells to fire yesterday. The only effect I got was that sometimes it would act as move company. I had the old maual right next to me. Shift + alt. Somewhat similar to smoke. Right.

Thanks again,

I'll be back monday.

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/11/2011 9:08:50 PM

Jason Petho

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No worries, Marc!

You can find the MCS Bootcamp document in the Manuals folder.

A quick read will explain some of the new features.

Hope you enjoy them!

Jason Petho

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/11/2011 11:16:17 PM

berto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

Some engineers can "upgrade" improved positions to trenches.

Some engineers can build hexside, medium bridges.

Most combat engineers can build a hexside, foot bridge

How long, on average (if the time required randomly varies), does it take for engineer units to achieve each result?

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/14/2011 7:08:19 PM

Schanilec

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I think I got all the cobwebs out. Figured out the starshells. Next i'll try the bridging engineers.

Thanks for all the help and ideas.

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/20/2011 6:55:56 AM

Geomitrak

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Just for information, in my PBEM games the Extreme Assault option is turned off as can lead to some peculiar results. A disrupted German 120mm mortar platoon repeatedly repulsed assaults by two full strength US infantry platoons.

Regards

Paul

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/20/2011 7:48:59 PM

Crossroads

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Just for information, in my PBEM games the Extreme Assault option is turned off as can lead to some peculiar results. A disrupted German 120mm mortar platoon repeatedly repulsed assaults by two full strength US infantry platoons.

EA requires some different tactics. Assaulting repeatedly with slightly better than 1:1 odds might be the way forward, instead of a one massive assault. Remember to get some kills / disruptions before the assault as well (which you had done, as you mentioned).

It is a different beast. But not an impossible one. Once you become familiar with it you might actually like it. :)

< Message edited by Crossroads -- 2/20/2011 7:51:04 PM >

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/20/2011 7:52:49 PM

Geomitrak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Just for information, in my PBEM games the Extreme Assault option is turned off as can lead to some peculiar results. A disrupted German 120mm mortar platoon repeatedly repulsed assaults by two full strength US infantry platoons.

EA requires some different tactics. Assaulting repeatedly with slightly better than 1:1 odds might be the way forward, instead of a one massive assault. Remember to get some kills / disruptions before the assault as well (which you had done, as you mentioned).

It is a different beast. But not an impossible one. Once you become familiar with it you might actually like it.

I doubt I will like a disrupted mortar platoon ( on its own ) repelling assaults from 2 fresh full-strength US infantry platoons. Thats not Extreme Assault...that's extreme silliness.

Regards

Paul

< Message edited by Geomitrak -- 2/20/2011 7:54:57 PM >

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/20/2011 8:34:04 PM

Crossroads

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak
I doubt I will like a disrupted mortar platoon ( on its own ) repelling assaults from 2 fresh full-strength US infantry platoons. Thats not Extreme Assault...that's extreme silliness.

Regards

Paul

Maybe they had Tom Hank's German cousin, making sticky bombs out of the shells? :)

This could be a case in point though. With two friendly infantry platoons, and with the defenders already disrupted, you could have waged four assaults by single platoons. I doubt they would have lived that? Or maybe you tried that?

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/20/2011 9:50:19 PM

Huib

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Just for information, in my PBEM games the Extreme Assault option is turned off as can lead to some peculiar results. A disrupted German 120mm mortar platoon repeatedly repulsed assaults by two full strength US infantry platoons.

Regards

Paul

Depends how many sp the mortar platoon was. If it was 4 sp, there would have been at least 16 armed German soldiers with probably at least one LMG. Not something to just run over, especially not if they were in an urban or fortified area. Just a matter of wrong tactics chosen by the allied player.
Many players are still used to just running over artillery units, beause it always used to be extremely easy. In fact without EA the ability of artillery crews to defend themselves is way to weak.

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 6:04:02 AM

Geomitrak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak
I doubt I will like a disrupted mortar platoon ( on its own ) repelling assaults from 2 fresh full-strength US infantry platoons. Thats not Extreme Assault...that's extreme silliness.

Regards

Paul

Maybe they had Tom Hank's German cousin, making sticky bombs out of the shells? :)

This could be a case in point though. With two friendly infantry platoons, and with the defenders already disrupted, you could have waged four assaults by single platoons. I doubt they would have lived that? Or maybe you tried that?

Sorry Crossroads, maybe I'm not expressing myself very well. My point is that the disrupted mortar platoon should never have survived the first assault. Two fresh full-strength infantry platoons should have rolled over it easily, at the first attempt. With those odds, the notion that multiple assaults are required is unrealistic to say the least.

Huib, yes, the ability of artillery crews to defend themselves was always disregarded, or at least underestimated. But in this instance, I think the odds were unarguable.

By the way, I was the German playey. My 'American' opponent queried the outcome and I agreed. I withdrew the mortar platoon and it took no further part in an otherwise enjoyable scenario.

Regards

Paul

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 10:59:00 AM

MrRoadrunner

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I've seen this and more when using EA.
Regardless of the hoops the "team" wishes us to jump through to swallow EA, using Extreme Assault is as gamey as the fire-disrupt-overrun in the original CS system.
Your mortar platoon displays the weakness of EA. I've seen disrupted trucks repulse scout cars. Which I am sure can be explained away by saying the drivers were armed with carbines and handguns?
I've seen a German Mg platoon hold out for many turns while being shot, disrupted, and assaulted each turn, (many times each turn), the last half surrounded and out of supply, and hold two battalions of infantry back for the better part of ten turns. (And, yes I could have isolated it and moved on but the mg was recovering from morale and blasting my soft units, three at a time, each turn. Getting rid of it and testing out EA became the purpose over the ten turns.)

EA has me devolved into using superior firepower to simply shoot and eliminate selected enemy units.
The intentional slow down of play caused by EA was not well thought out. While some believe it adds "realism" to the simulation, others are less enamored with it and find it adds a sense of "unreality".
I find I will only play with EA on in scenarios that were designed for it.

I admire that you withdrew the mortars. Most players would not have done that.

RR

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 12:19:24 PM

Crossroads

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Good thing it is an optional rule�

I have to check the BoB episode where Dick Winters took the Jerry arty positions... Did they manage to do it in six minutes?

� They just might have done that, despite of the well positioned trench system the guns were protected with.

The engine allows for a level of abstraction, for half empty and half full glasses, and to play with like minded opposition and to have fun is the key thing, eh?

< Message edited by Crossroads -- 2/22/2011 12:54:58 PM >

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 2:33:33 PM

Jason Petho

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At a range of 1 hex, shooting the mortar would have been a wiser option, no?

Being a 120mm, it was nice of your opponent to allow you to drive up and haul it out!

Additionally, what scenario was it, I would like to check it out. Or, if you have the files can you mail them to me, I would love to see them.

Thanks!!

Jason Petho

< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 2/22/2011 3:51:12 PM >

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 4:30:29 PM

Jason Petho

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

I've seen this and more when using EA.

I believe he was not using EA.

Jason Petho

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 8:01:21 PM

MrRoadrunner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

I've seen this and more when using EA.

I believe he was not using EA.

Jason Petho

My bad.

I misread his message.

I've never seen a disrupted unit, except one in a built up hex versus armored units, where they repulsed an assault unless EA was turned on.
Let alone an artillery piece.

I did see a disrupted one strength point Brit 2pdr do it, with EA on, against German infantry.

I must be EA gun shy ... or blinked?

RR

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 8:06:54 PM

Jason Petho

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

My bad.
I misread his message.

No worries.

I am curious if it was in a bunker or pillbox or something that might skew the results? It shouldn't, but without EA on that should have been a quick overrun.

Jason Petho

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 9:40:08 PM

Geomitrak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

At a range of 1 hex, shooting the mortar would have been a wiser option, no?

Being a 120mm, it was nice of your opponent to allow you to drive up and haul it out!

Additionally, what scenario was it, I would like to check it out. Or, if you have the files can you mail them to me, I would love to see them.

Thanks!!

Jason Petho

The scenario was Get Off The Beach. Extreme Assault was on ( hence my remarks about it ). The disrupted 120 mm mortar was the fixed one in trench hex 23,9 and it was, by that time, the only unit in there. The US infantry assaulted from trench hex 24,9.

And yes, Jason it would have been nice for my opponent to allow me to drive up and offload the mortar right in front of them. Why you even think that happened, however, is beyond me. I never said anything of the kind.

Regards
Paul

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 9:58:03 PM

Jason Petho

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Hi Paul

My misunderstanding, I thought this:

quote:

Just for information, in my PBEM games the Extreme Assault option is turned off as can lead to some peculiar results. A disrupted German 120mm mortar platoon repeatedly repulsed assaults by two full strength US infantry platoons.

...meant you had it turned off. I misread, so I apologize.

I also understood this:

quote:

I withdrew the mortar platoon and it took no further part in an otherwise enjoyable scenario.

... to mean you were able to transport the mortar platoon out of the hex. Being a 120mm mortar, it would need a vehicle to do so. Hence my comment.

English is clearly not my forte.

So, I apologize in advance for the Modern Wars manual.

Jason Petho

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 10:00:00 PM

Jason Petho

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner
My bad.
I misread his message.

Nope, my mistake.

You were right.

Apologies.

Jason Petho

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 10:26:27 PM

MrRoadrunner

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No worries.

We are both just separated by a common language? And, an uncommon one?

The trench would surely become a factor? And, I can envision the two mortarmen scrambling to throw their tubes at the attackers to scare them off. Or maybe they watched "Saving Private Ryan" too?
Smack them shells against the base plate and toss 'em!

RR

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/22/2011 11:35:05 PM

V22 Osprey

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I'm honestly confused by this thread.

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/23/2011 6:42:50 AM

Crossroads

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner
Smack them shells against the base plate and toss 'em!

That's the obvious way to go, isn't it! As a 120mm mortar cannot fire into an adjacent hex...

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/26/2011 1:50:57 AM

Nebfer

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Well a German 120mm Mortar platoon as of May 1st 1944 -part of KsTN 151n (heavy company Neu Art of a infantry battalion Neu Art)

Platoon Troop
-Platoon Commander x1
-Arming circle NCO x1
-Arming circle operator x1
-Rangefinder operator x1
-Messenger x1
-Radio operators x3 (Feldfunk-Sprecher b -AKA Feldfu b)
-Armorer x1
-Motorcycle messenger x2
-Driver x1
-1x 4 person car
------
Field phone troop
- Telephone NCO x1
- Telephone operators x3
- Driver x1
- 1x RSO tracked truck
---------
Mortar group
-Section Commander x1
-Mortar Squad leaders x4
-Mortar Crewmen x20 (5 per mortar)
-Drivers x5
-120mm Mortars x4
-Light Machineguns x2
-RSO Tracked Trucks x4
-lt Truck x1

Over all
1x Officer
7x NCOs
39x Enlisted
5x RSOs
1x Car
1x lt Truck
2x Motorcycles
4x 120mm Mortars
2x lt Machineguns (operated by the mortar crew)
34x Rifles
7x SMGs
7x Pistols

A small but potent armament.

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RE: Changes in the Game - 2/26/2011 11:39:10 AM

Crossroads

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That's a good post Nebfer. It would be nice if the mortar unit would actually have some firepower available towards the adjacent hex, to reflect the armament they have in place for self defence.

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Post #: 28