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Spain - 2/27/2011 9:33:11 PM   
Boores

 

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I think that the best name for Iberian Peninsula is Hispania, a punic name, instead of Spain, that is the modern name. For greek settlers and phoenician, the name was Iberia, but in the time of Hannibal was Hispania, more accurate. Is it possible change it?

Cheers
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RE: Spain - 2/27/2011 11:41:34 PM   
mercenarius


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Well, it's possible but let me point out that "Spain" is merely the English version of a derived form of Hispania.

Roughly speaking: Hispania (Latin) -> Espayne (Anglo-French) -> Spain.

I had considered using a number of forms like Hispania, Sicilia, etc., in the game but I settled mostly on the English names since the game is in English.

If I did change it, "Iberia" might actually be a better choice as the name as that makes it more clear that we are talking about the entire peninsula, and not the modern nation of Spain.

_____________________________

James Warshawsky
Forced March Games, LLC

(in reply to Boores)
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RE: Spain - 2/28/2011 10:45:40 AM   
Boores

 

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania


Iīve studied Hispanic Filology. I had to studied a subject "History of the Spanish Language". Rafael Lapesa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Lapesa, a great Linguist, on History of the Spanish Language, speaks about the punic meaning of Hispania. The romans copy that name. Iberia, is older and, on Hannibalīs time, is a name of a land proportion where lives the Iberians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians, think that Galia= land of Gauls, Iberia= land of Iberians, Gallaecia= Land of Gallaecii.....and much more.
I vote for Hispania

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RE: Spain - 2/28/2011 10:48:04 AM   
Boores

 

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Like you tell, Spain or Espaņa, are a progression over time of Hispania. Many fonetic changes over history. But the time of the game, is very back over those changes.

Sorry if my English is bad

< Message edited by Boores -- 2/28/2011 10:51:19 AM >

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RE: Spain - 2/28/2011 11:00:24 AM   
Boores

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mercenarius

Well, it's possible but let me point out that "Spain" is merely the English version of a derived form of Hispania.

Roughly speaking: Hispania (Latin) -> Espayne (Anglo-French) -> Spain.



On the Hannibalīs time, Britain werenīt the land where Anglos, Jutes and Saxons mixed their german language with the older britons and their latin, wich was different of the oficcial form that people wrote, as the Hispanic Latin, Gallia Latin..... When Roma fall, those Latins will walk on time and will be French, Rumanian, Spanish, Italian....Romanic Languages, the English will be a Germanic Language because the invasion of the germanic people change the Grammatic enterely. Well, bla bla bla, , derived form itīs a long process on time, and when itīs a standard form the Roman Empire had fallen time ago.

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RE: Spain - 2/28/2011 6:00:13 PM   
nalivayko

 

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I too wanted to comment on the naming of provinces in game, but decided to keep my mouth shut after some heavy thinking.

If we start with Spain (which was also the province that drew my attention first) and call it Hispania, where do we stop? Italy should become Italia, Rome - Roma, etc, etc, etc. Is it a bad thing? Not necessarily, but then why should be use Latin alone and not Phoenician? Carthage should become Qart Hadasht, Africans should become Lybians, New Carthage... well, Qart Qart Hadasht? :) Something, something...

I don't need mercenarius to answer this question: the majority of the buyers will not be familiar with these names and using English names makes it easier to sell the game. Also, one does not have to make difficult decisions about native names for both nations.

Then, of course, there is Gaul. Calling it France would be completely ahistorical, Franks would not show up there for centuries. Spain is a different matter. Why call it Iberia if it is pooulated with Celts, Celtiberians and Iberians. Spaniard infantry is a better collective terms than Iberian infantry, as it can be used to describe all three different groups.

And thus, I also came to turns with African infantry vs Lybian infantry - may be confusing to an average modern gamer.

Now, since this is never going to satisfy the purists, the better solution would be to make text editable and have the game support multiple languages, which, a reasonable person will conclude, is too late to implement for this game.

Boores, if you still insist on Hispania, I will have to start looking for a Phoenician name of the peninsula :D Btw, does anybody know what it is?

(in reply to Boores)
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RE: Spain - 2/28/2011 6:38:24 PM   
Boores

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nalivayko

I too wanted to comment on the naming of provinces in game, but decided to keep my mouth shut after some heavy thinking.

If we start with Spain (which was also the province that drew my attention first) and call it Hispania, where do we stop? Italy should become Italia, Rome - Roma, etc, etc, etc. Is it a bad thing? Not necessarily, but then why should be use Latin alone and not Phoenician? Carthage should become Qart Hadasht, Africans should become Lybians, New Carthage... well, Qart Qart Hadasht? :) Something, something...

I don't need mercenarius to answer this question: the majority of the buyers will not be familiar with these names and using English names makes it easier to sell the game. Also, one does not have to make difficult decisions about native names for both nations.

Then, of course, there is Gaul. Calling it France would be completely ahistorical, Franks would not show up there for centuries. Spain is a different matter. Why call it Iberia if it is pooulated with Celts, Celtiberians and Iberians. Spaniard infantry is a better collective terms than Iberian infantry, as it can be used to describe all three different groups.

And thus, I also came to turns with African infantry vs Lybian infantry - may be confusing to an average modern gamer.

Now, since this is never going to satisfy the purists, the better solution would be to make text editable and have the game support multiple languages, which, a reasonable person will conclude, is too late to implement for this game.

Boores, if you still insist on Hispania, I will have to start looking for a Phoenician name of the peninsula :D Btw, does anybody know what it is?



If you read my post, you might read that Hispania is the phoenician name, not latin. Romans copy the name. And People who likes this games
usually likes history and donīt be confusing

Spain is moder name like France or Deustchland, itīs the same my friend

(in reply to nalivayko)
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RE: Spain - 2/28/2011 10:38:18 PM   
nalivayko

 

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Pardon me :D I was under impression that Punic origin of the word Hispana is still disputed. Spain, being a derivative of Hispana, is not really modern name like France, which is in no way a derivative of Gaul (for example's sake). Now, Germany would be both modern and ancient and so would be Italy.

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RE: Spain - 3/1/2011 9:04:15 AM   
Boores

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nalivayko

Pardon me :D I was under impression that Punic origin of the word Hispana is still disputed. Spain, being a derivative of Hispana, is not really modern name like France, which is in no way a derivative of Gaul (for example's sake). Now, Germany would be both modern and ancient and so would be Italy.


Derivative is a cronologic process, since Ancient Times to Modern Ages where the name is estabilized. The name: Spain, is a late concept, when Castillia and Aragon unified. Before that Spain didnīt exist like country.

Hispania suffers a fonetic development through ages: The H that sound like H on English, is mute by celt influence, the Ispania, the vocals open one degree and Espania; The consonactic group ni= palatal nasal=ņ; njod process. Espaņa On English Spain. But since Hispania to Espaņa has a long process.
Gallia on latin, itīs the land of Gauls, and Francia on latin Itīs the land of Franks,for the late invasion on S.V A.C.

Since Hannibal's Time to S.V A.C has many time in middle. And on Visigothic Time the name is Hispania Vandalorum, S. V A.C.

Cheers

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RE: Spain - 3/1/2011 2:43:52 PM   
nalivayko

 

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Boores, my favorite historian Dodge uses the word Spain in "Hannibal" (I have the book in front of me, but no URL). The English translations of Polybius (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/10*.html) also use the word Spain. The same goes for Livy's translations (googled couple of results). I am sure they don't mean "the Kingdom of Spain", but Hispania and that's the way it works in English. This is not a matter of terminology, but translation. Imo.

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RE: Spain - 3/1/2011 5:21:18 PM   
Boores

 

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Dodge...etc writes on English, for that reason uses Spain, Hannibal, Scipio etc didnīt speak English. How we donīt use phoenician alphabet, best use Hispania with latin alphabet, Hispania.

Name: The origin of the word Hispania is much disputed and the evidence for the various speculations are based merely upon what are at best mere resemblances, likely to be accidental, and suspect supporting evidence. One theory holds it to be of Punic derivation, from the Phoenician language of colonizing Carthage. It may derive from the Canaanite Hebrew אי-שפניא (i-shfania) meaning "Island of the Hyrax" or "island of the hare" or "island of the rabbit". Another theory, proposed by the etymologist Eric Partridge in his work Origins, is that it is of Iberian derivation and that it is to be found in the pre-Roman name for Seville, Hispalis, which strongly hints at an ancient name for the country of *Hispa, an Iberian or Celtic root whose meaning is now lost. It may alternatively derive from Heliopolis (Greek for "city of the sun"). Occasionally it was called Hesperia, the western land, by Roman writers, or Hesperia ultima.
Another theory holds that the name derives from Ezpanna, the Basque word for "border" or "edge", thus meaning the farthest area or place. Isidore of Sevilla considered Hispania derived from Hispalis.
Substituting "Spanish" for Hispanicus or "Hispanic", or "Spain" for Hispania, though sometimes done by historians in the more general context of common peninsular history, is anachronistic and can be misleading, since the borders of modern Spain do not coincide with those of the Roman province of Hispania, or of the Visigothic Kingdom which succeeded it, and have always shifted, not even including Portugal at present. Although the Latin term Hispania was often used during Antiquity and the High Middle Ages as a geographical name for the Iberian Peninsula, its cognates "Spain" and "Spanish" have become increasingly associated with the Kingdom of Spain alone, after the merging of the central peninsular Kingdom of Castile and the eastern one of Aragon in the 15th century under the Catholic Monarchs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania


Etymology: The true origins of the name Espaņa and its cognates "Spain" and "Spanish" are disputed. The ancient Roman name for Iberia, Hispania, may derive from poetic use of the term Hesperia to refer to Spain, reflecting the Greek perception of Italy as a "western land" or "land of the setting sun" (Hesperia, Εσπερία in greek) and Spain, being still further west, as Hesperia ultima.[6]

It may also be a derivation of the Punic Ispanihad, meaning "land of rabbits" or "edge", a reference to Spain's location at the end of the Mediterranean; Roman coins struck in the region from the reign of Hadrian show a female figure with a coney at her feet.There are also claims that Espaņa derives from the Basque word Ezpanna meaning "edge" or "border", another reference to the fact that the Iberian peninsula constitutes the southwest of the European continent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain


Youīll never fin a text from a roman or greek historian that uses the word Spain; the only case is that a english historian translate that terms to English.

The humanist Antonio de Nebrija proposed that the word Hispania evolved from the Iberian word Hispalis, meaning "city of the western world". According to new research by Jesús Luis Cunchillos published in 2000 with the name of Gramática fenicia elemental (Basic Phoenician grammar), the root of the term span is spy, meaning "to forge metals". Therefore i-spn-ya would mean "the land where metals are forged".

If the spanish people use Hispania for Roman Spain, and Espaņa for Modern Spain, why use Spain for both meanings????


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RE: Spain - 3/1/2011 5:37:20 PM   
nalivayko

 

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Boores, I do know how to use (and mistrust) wikipedia. Yes, Dodge writes in English and the game is in English as well. Translations of Greek or Roman historians will use the word Spain, when using English. Even if "anachronistic and misleading" from Spanish point of view, this is a common practice among English speakers. Thus, Spain.

I really don't know what else to add. If I was in your place, I could argue that the use of the word 'Russia' in many games is incorrect, it shoud be either 'Rossiya' (modern use) or 'Rus' (medieval use). I hardly ever get into this though, because in my experience the debates like this are fruitless, meaningless and highly emotional for people who's country of origin and/or language are involved.

Come to think of it, I am suprised and disappointed at myself for writing this post, since this debate is also fruitless (neither of us are developers of the game), meaningless (we both stand little chance of convincing each other of our own point of view) and somewhat emotional. I am ending my participation while we are still ahead. If you manage to convince mercenarius that you are right, I would be just as happy with Hispania as I was with Spain.

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RE: Spain - 3/1/2011 6:10:13 PM   
Boores

 

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Sorry, If I have made angry you, but i only expose my point of view.

Cheers

(in reply to nalivayko)
Post #: 13
RE: Spain - 3/1/2011 6:25:05 PM   
nalivayko

 

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Not angry at all, just puzzled at myself for leaving the middle ground :)

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RE: Spain - 3/1/2011 9:51:32 PM   
Boores

 

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My Idea:






Iberian for Infantry and cavalry, because many different people on Hannibal's Time: Celts, Celtiberians, Iberians... and those contain many others tribes: Vascones, Vettones, Turdetanians, Vacceos,Callaecii..........and many more.....Hannibal recruited Iberian Infantry, and Romans too. Iberians but from differents tribes.

Only an Idea, the game is very good I like it very much

< Message edited by Boores -- 3/1/2011 9:53:24 PM >

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RE: Spain - 3/2/2011 12:02:41 AM   
mercenarius


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At some point I plan to revise the PDF manual. When I do that, I'll consider renaming this and also changing a few things like "Pontian" Aid which is admittedly anachronistic as it stands. Right now I am going to leave things as they are in part to avoid confusion between the PDF manual and the game.

I do see that this naming convention is very important to some people.

_____________________________

James Warshawsky
Forced March Games, LLC

(in reply to Boores)
Post #: 16
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