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New Tiller Game Panzer Battles - 10/26/2010 5:06:17 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Sorry if this has been brought up before

http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles.html

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 8/3/2013 6:17:39 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: New Tiller Game - 10/27/2010 9:47:12 PM   
markw

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/11/2008
Status: offline 		I've been enjoying his Spanish Civil War squad battles, not nearly as good as the Campaign Series but fun in its own right.

This will be interesting to see how this game plays out. Hopefully he'll be designing in something other than Windows 98 forms.

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Post #: 2
RE: New Tiller Game - 10/28/2010 2:09:21 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		I suspect this will be the same as Squad Battles and Panzer Campaigns but on platoon level units.
It will model each weapon and person instead of 'steps' like JTCS. 
Since it says that it will focus on tank battles, it will probably be like Steel Panthers 3...

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RE: New Tiller Game - 10/28/2010 2:18:11 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		The only way a game should focus on armour battles is single units on the screen. Telling me a platoon is facing a certain way is one stretch, telling me a company or battalion or more is all facing the same is silly.

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RE: New Tiller Game - 12/3/2010 2:57:32 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Big news today. JT is self publishing. He has a store with DD. There is a small shot of Panzer Battles. It looks like JTCS with the Panzer Campaigns interface.

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with compared to the team here. I'll bet that Jason and team are more open to our suggestions.


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RE: New Tiller Game - 12/3/2010 4:17:54 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
I'll bet that Jason and team are more open to our suggestions.



Thank you, junk.

That is appreciated.

Jason Petho



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RE: New Tiller Game - 12/3/2010 9:40:25 PM   
berto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Big news today. JT is self publishing. He has a store with DD. There is a small shot of Panzer Battles. It looks like JTCS with the Panzer Campaigns interface.

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with compared to the team here. I'll bet that Jason and team are more open to our suggestions.


From the hostile response (and essential non-response from Jason) I got here recently to some of my suggestions, I kinda doubt it. What a turnoff!

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RE: New Tiller Game - 12/3/2010 9:51:30 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto
From the hostile response (and essential non-response from Jason) I got here recently to some of my suggestions, I kinda doubt it. What a turnoff!


Huh?

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RE: New Tiller Game - 12/3/2010 11:26:35 PM   
berto


Posts: 20708
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto
From the hostile response (and essential non-response from Jason) I got here recently to some of my suggestions, I kinda doubt it. What a turnoff!


Huh?

Jason Petho


I refer to the wishlist thread, where I suggested

  • an explicit hot-seat solitaire (with extreme FOW) option [no response AFAIK]
  • games ending in an unpredictable, variable number of turns [no response AFAIK]
  • at game's formal end, having the option to play on [response: edit the save game file. huh? i have to delve into the mysteries of the save game file in order to enable this? when it would be so much easier simply not to abruptly terminate the game at that point?]

John Tiller's more recent HPS games have the first two options, and may or may not have the third (I would have to check).

Those suggestions (for optional rules!) were not well received within the community, to say the least.

Not to mention another forumite's suggestions to overlay more realistic command control onto the game and add to the game's realism. And the subsequent hostile, juvenile response of a few people around here (excepting you, Jason; you are always respectful and polite; but I don't recall your responding to his suggestions either).

The impression I get here is that the CS game community is happy to freeze the game more or less as it's always been, to heck with innovation and offering reasonable new optional rules.

Again, what a turnoff!

The Campaign Series of games used to be high up on my list of played, must-buy games. No more.

Their new DRM policy aside (it sucks), John Tiller Software's imminent new Panzer Battles series (akin to his earlier Campaign Series) is beginning to look like a much more attractive alternative.

Choice is good. Nice to have so many other alternatives. Nice to be able to walk away from this forum and take my business elsewhere...

[Please excuse my grumpiness. JT Software's new DRM policy has left me in an especially foul mood today. Where's our cat so I can go kick her too? ]

< Message edited by berto -- 12/4/2010 12:00:44 AM >

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RE: New Tiller Game - 12/4/2010 12:44:26 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto
I refer to the wishlist thread, where I suggested

  • an explicit hot-seat solitaire (with extreme FOW) option [no response AFAIK]


    • There is a hot-seat option where you can turn on extreme FOW, so I don't understand what you are asking for. Can you clarify?

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

  • games ending in an unpredictable, variable number of turns [no response AFAIK]


    • An interesting idea and one that has been floating around since the Talonsoft days. As a temporary alternative, you can edit to the BTE to extend the game if you wish to play a little longer. No, it isn't the same thing, but does provide some options.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

  • at game's formal end, having the option to play on [response: edit the save game file. huh? i have to delve into the mysteries of the save game file in order to enable this? when it would be so much easier simply not to abruptly terminate the game at that point?]


    • Yes, it would be much easier to have the option to continue or not. Manually editing the BTE is a temporary alternate solution until something like that could be implemented. If you would like to know how to do so, I can tell you offline.

    It is simple suggestions like that that are taken note of and added to the Master Wishlist. Reasonably, just because it makes it onto the Master Wishlist doesn't mean it will be implemented anytime soon.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    John Tiller's more recent HPS games have the first two options, and may or may not have the third (I would have to check).

    Those suggestions (for optional rules!) were not well received within the community, to say the least.


    Not many liked the idea that the Earth was round when it was first proposed, but the idea was presented anyway. That is the primary purpose of the "wishlist" thread, for people to bring forth their ideas, no matter how off the wall or bizarre they may be. There are a lot of gems out there and that's what I'm looking for.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    Not to mention another forumite's suggestions to overlay more realistic command control onto the game and add to the game's realism. And the subsequent hostile, juvenile response of a few people around here (excepting you, Jason; you are always respectful and polite; but I don't recall your responding to his suggestions either).



    Two significant changes on my wishlist (yes, I have one too) are an improved command and control structure and improved artillery model. Does everyone like that idea? Nope and I understand the reasons why not. Being a moderator has taught me to let a lot of the hostility and juvenile behavoir wash over, it just isn't worth it to become embroiled in the arguements.

    Thank you for the kind words.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    The impression I get here is that the CS game community is happy to freeze the game more or less as it's always been, to heck with innovation and offering reasonable new optional rules.


    Not everyone is open to change, no. On the brightside, many others are open to change and are embracing the new optional rules that have been released so far. Additionally, not everyone uses the game the same as everyone else.

    May there be other optional rules in the future? Quite possibly, yes. What will they be? Who knows... there isn't anything on the drawing boards right now for new optional rules due to the primary focus being on Modern Wars: Volume I. I am so excited about this release!

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    Again, what a turnoff!

    The Campaign Series of games used to be high up on my list of played, must-buy games. No more.


    Due to the nature of how some of the threads have played out, yes, I can see how it can be a turn off. I apologize to you for letting things get out of hand.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    Their new DRM policy aside (it sucks), John Tiller Software's imminent new Panzer Battles series (akin to his earlier Campaign Series) is beginning to look like a much more attractive alternative.


    Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the new DRM policy? Whose policy?

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    Choice is good. Nice to have so many other alternatives. Nice to be able to walk away from this forum and take my business elsewhere...


    Yes, choice is good. Variety is the spice of life. It would be unfortunate to see you go, of course.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    [Please excuse my grumpiness. JT Software's new DRM policy has left me in an especially foul mood today. Where's our cat so I can go kick her too? ]


    No worries, berto.

    Jason Petho



    < Message edited by Jason Petho -- 12/4/2010 12:45:14 AM >

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 12/4/2010 1:00:19 AM   
    V22 Osprey


    Posts: 1593
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    Status: offline     		Jason, John Tiller himself is now splitting off from HPS and publishing his own games. However, the games now have a DRM where you can only install on one computer with online activation. Pretty sad to say the least.

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 12/4/2010 2:45:41 AM   
    dudalb_slith

     

    Posts: 168
    Joined: 6/20/2002
    Status: offline     		Yeah, the DRM is a deal breaker for me.
    I would love to know what happened between Tiller and HPS that lead to this.

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    Post #: 12
    RE: New Tiller Game - 12/4/2010 2:20:12 PM   
    berto


    Posts: 20708
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    I refer to the wishlist thread, where I suggested

  • an explicit hot-seat solitaire (with extreme FOW) option [no response AFAIK]


    • There is a hot-seat option where you can turn on extreme FOW, so I don't understand what you are asking for. Can you clarify?

    Duh, you are right. Wish (already) fulfilled!

    The Campaign Series is one of those set aside for a couple of years but always come back to games. I forget details.

    Thank you for your patient and respectful response. Happy holidays!

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    Post #: 13
    RE: New Tiller Game - 12/4/2010 4:28:18 PM   
    sabre1


    Posts: 1928
    Joined: 8/15/2001
    From: CA
    Status: offline     		Thanks Jason for keeping such a wonderful game alive without the stupid DRM restrictions of other companies. Have a very Merry Christmas!

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    Post #: 14
    RE: New Tiller Game - 12/4/2010 11:28:10 PM   
    junk2drive


    Posts: 12907
    Joined: 6/27/2002
    From: Arizona West Coast
    Status: offline     		Having spent much time in the various places where JT's store policy is being discussed so to speak, it occurred to me that the new CS, I mean PC, will probably consist of one map with a bunch of scenarios covering a section of a war. So instead of getting the value of JTCS and the Modern series here, you can buy release after release after release...

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 1/29/2011 4:24:31 PM   
    berto


    Posts: 20708
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    I refer to the wishlist thread, where I suggested

  • an explicit hot-seat solitaire (with extreme FOW) option [no response AFAIK]

    • There is a hot-seat option where you can turn on extreme FOW, so I don't understand what you are asking for. Can you clarify?

    I tried verifying this. In Rising Sun, I load any scenario, choose Manual/Manual (hot-seat solitaire) for A/I Selection, then check Extreme Fog-of-War under Optional Rules. Yet on game start, and from turn to turn, I can view all forces on both sides. Where is the FOW?

    What I want is to play one side, then the other; but to partially view the opposing side as if I were playing against the "Computer with FOW"--i.e., where most of "my opponent's" forces are hidden.

    Are you sure this is working as intended? (Can you verify correct operation yourself?) Or where am I mistaken?

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 1/29/2011 7:37:52 PM   
    Jason Petho


    Posts: 15009
    Joined: 6/22/2004
    From: Terrace, BC, Canada
    Status: offline     		Hi berto

    Try this:

    Open the game

    Start Scenario

    Hot Seat

    Choose a scenario

    Choose your optional rules

    It should start as the first side: "Ready for Axis Player" or "Ready for Allied Player"

    Jason Petho


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    RE: New Tiller Game - 1/29/2011 8:22:46 PM   
    berto


    Posts: 20708
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    Hi berto

    Try this:

    Open the game

    Start Scenario

    Hot Seat

    Choose a scenario

    Choose your optional rules

    It should start as the first side: "Ready for Axis Player" or "Ready for Allied Player"

    Jason Petho
    .

    Got it. I'm so used to playing Tiller's other HPS titles where this option is now presented somewhat differently. I have to reopen my eyes to his earlier way of doing things. Sorry to trouble you (again).

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 1/29/2011 8:28:01 PM   
    Jason Petho


    Posts: 15009
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    Status: offline     		Not a bother at all, berto!

    Glad it is figured out!

    Jason Petho

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 2/28/2011 8:16:55 PM   
    markw

     

    Posts: 22
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: junk2drive

    Big news today. JT is self publishing. He has a store with DD. There is a small shot of Panzer Battles. It looks like JTCS with the Panzer Campaigns interface.

    It will be interesting to see what he comes up with compared to the team here. I'll bet that Jason and team are more open to our suggestions.



    Curious, where can I see this screenshot?

    thanks.

    -mark

    < Message edited by markw -- 2/28/2011 8:17:43 PM >

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 2/28/2011 8:18:31 PM   
    junk2drive


    Posts: 12907
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    Status: offline     		DD means digital download.

    Edit, you mean PB. Click the store, click wargames

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 2/28/2011 8:18:55 PM   
    markw

     

    Posts: 22
    Joined: 10/11/2008
    Status: offline     		Nevermind, found it, sorry for the confusion.

    < Message edited by markw -- 2/28/2011 8:21:19 PM >

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 6/1/2011 8:41:09 PM   
    general_solomon

     

    Posts: 253
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    Status: offline     		hello, is there anymore news on this title? nothing on the website except a small screenshot.

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    Post #: 23
    RE: New Tiller Game - 8/3/2013 6:06:59 AM   
    junk2drive


    Posts: 12907
    Joined: 6/27/2002
    From: Arizona West Coast
    Status: offline     		Because I am on call and bored at the moment, I thought I'd drag up this oldie but goodie.

    Hey look above, there is berto!

    Meanwhile...

    January at the wargamer someone asks about PB

    http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=585574

    A reply in April by Strela

    quote:

    The Panzer Battles series is definitely being worked on. It is between Squad Battles and Panzer Campaigns and uses some of the best features of both. Expect some very positive things in the graphics department....

    The dev team have made a lot of progress recently after a long hiatus.... Be patient, it will be worth it.


    Then a post at the blitz by Strela July 29

    http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=64679&pid=378990#pid378990

    quote:

    I am involved with JTS (not HPS) and am here on almost a daily basis. If you have any specific questions I will assist where I can.

    What I will say is that we do monitor the various forums and have our spies out who let us know if we have missed anything :) We do follow all the threads and changes have been made to the code to reflect players suggestions and wishes.

    As far as letting you know what's coming next - it's a very deliberate decision not to do that. Why, you ask? Because every publically released game is done by a part time developer. The only games John Tiller does himself are usually classified and released to the military. All the games you see that are supported by these forums are done by part time hobbyists. These hobbyists have real lives, real jobs and a limited amount of time they can allocate to game design. Ultimately that means games can take anywhere from 18 months to 10 years to release! By not announcing what we are working on prevents the hype getting out of control.

    John Tiller had one experience where he 'pre-announced' a new series (Panzer Battles) back in 2009 by putting it up on his website. The game was almost complete and just needed maybe 3 - 6 months more work and it was expected to be released pretty quickly. Post the announcement the designer went on sabbatical and shelved the game due to a lack of time. As a result of the pre-announcement, John and Rich field almost daily requests for Panzer Battles. Now lets be clear, that title (and series) is not dead, but it requires either the original designer to return or another to pick the project up (and subsequently delay whatever they were working on).

    What I will say is that there are a heap of titles being worked on covering every game series John has released - what we don't have is a clear schedule (or demand) of dates to release titles on.

    Finally, I think many people have missed a very significant development of late. John Tiller has released Modern Air Power (MAP) for tablets including Android, iPad and Kindle. John has a very robust engine that works across all his game series - if he can do it for MAP, I expect we will see it for some if not the whole range of his game series. For more info go to the official John Tiller Software site.

    So JTS is not dead, just driven by folks who put all their time into creating games for you guys (and not enough time playing them!!!).

    David


    Which someone posted a link to in the wargamer thread. Which received this reply by Strela

    quote:

    Please reread my note posted in the thread here. Panzer Battles is being worked on currently.

    As I was the one who posted in the other thread, I used the comment about sabbaticals as an example of the challenges with official release cycles. Please do not infer that it means there is not work ongoing on Panzer Battles. We are fortunate that there is more than one designer available for the series.

    David


    So which are we going to see first, berto's improved JTCS or Strela's JTPB?

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    Post #: 24
    RE: New Tiller Game - 8/3/2013 12:01:24 PM   
    berto


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: junk2drive

    So which are we going to see first, berto's improved JTCS or Strela's JTPB?

    Please remember that JTCS is a team effort, and that I am just one member of Jason's team. I code; they don't. They develop OOBs, maps, scenarios, artwork, documentation, etc.; I don't. Code and data -- it wouldn't be a game without both.

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 8/3/2013 12:30:50 PM   
    LoneWulf63


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    Status: offline     		Since I am making new maps for JTCS, my vote would be JTCS.

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    RE: New Tiller Game - 8/3/2013 2:31:40 PM   
    junk2drive


    Posts: 12907
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    From: Arizona West Coast
    Status: offline     		Yes berto I know what you are saying. I appreciate what the team does.

    However the work on MW and 1.05 (and some games that I have worked on) came to a stop when the team lost its coder. I frequently see posts at other websites from dreamers that want to make a game. All they need is someone that can write the code.

    The orchestra needs a conductor. It needs musicians. But without the composer to write the music it is noise.

    Reminds me of the joke about the brain and heart fighting about who is the boss. Then the a hole steps in and wins.

    I am pleased with what I see you do and propose. I hope it gets out the door first.

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    Post #: 27
    RE: New Tiller Game - 8/3/2013 5:10:41 PM   
    berto


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: junk2drive

    The orchestra needs a conductor. It needs musicians. But without the composer to write the music it is noise.

    In all humility, I'm more like a song writer attempting to reorchestrate Wagner's Ring Cycle. My meager efforts (so far) tweaking the Campaign Series pale in comparison to what John Tiller had accomplished. (Although my Open Source project, PIKT -- see the second line of my sig -- is no mean achievement.)

    But, yes, your Everyday Joe (Programmer) can't do this. I always laugh when I read uninformed forum opinion like:

  • "You don't like it? Write your own game."
  • "Maybe I can help with the coding?"
  • "How hard can it be for a replacement coder to pick up where the other left off?"

    To which I think:

  • You have no idea of the difficulty.
  • Um, maybe not. (Too many cooks spoil the soup.)
  • Very hard.

    Thanks for the kind words. Back to work...

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    • Post #: 28
    RE: New Tiller Game - 8/3/2013 5:48:21 PM   
    LoneWulf63


    Posts: 905
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    Status: offline     		Berto. I agree with you 100%. I wouldn't even think of asking to help with the coding of JTCS, even if I knew how. So, I will continue making the maps for this fine simulation of World War II platoon level operations. In time, I will also get into making both historical and some hypothetical ORGs and scenarios. But back to you. Without you, whether you consider yourself as the songwriter or the composer, the rest of us would not be able to do what we do and this game would fade away. Many thanks from an old war-gamer to you. Chris.

    _____________________________

    In loving memory of my wife, Rebecca. 5/2/52 to 7/13/2014. I miss you sweetheart.

    (in reply to berto)
    Post #: 29
    RE: New Tiller Game - 8/3/2013 10:30:06 PM   
    junk2drive


    Posts: 12907
    Joined: 6/27/2002
    From: Arizona West Coast
    Status: offline     		I reread the whole thread last night. My imagination visualized Jason reading Robert's posts and thinking "if you think it is so easy, why don't you code these things". Time will tell if he does.

    (in reply to LoneWulf63)
    Post #: 30
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