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Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/14/2011 2:34:09 PM   
gianluca74_ai

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/14/2011
Status: offline 		Hello everyone,
I think it is time to add capabilities that exist today for Elmer adding an eternal software layer that manages the strategic aspect of the simulated conflict by TOAW.
As you know Elmer today can be considered a good tactician (especially after the excellent work done by Ralph Trickey) but still completely lacks a broader view of things.
It 's true, there is the Event Engine to add depth, but the programming of Elmer will always be limited by the Track to be assigned to each formation, which inevitably are predetermined and fixed regardless of the situation.

My problem to date has always been that it was not possible to interact with Elmer in an automated way (using other software to speak) during the course of a game.
With the introduction of the new patch, things have changed, because now you can get a file "in game" (by pressing the X button) it is recorded in XML current states of the IA for each Formation (Human and PO ), but more importantly is that varying the information contained in it is possible to change the targets.

E 'therefore now possible, based on the analysis of the situation at a given moment, change orders on formations, thus having an AI capable of reacting to stimuli not only tactical (as now) but also to the strategic (as some can do now with the events, but with the limitations described above).

After this huge preamble set before you my problem, hoping someone can help me:
I can give orders to the IA when I want, but to establish the nature of these orders I need to be formalized within a program (which will be developed in ABAP, and then retranslated into Java) algorithms analysis of the strategic situation. To develop these algorithms I need some data that currently can not get, which specifically are:
The position data to the units controlled by Elmer, the position data relating to enemy units that Elmer can see.
For my needs I need this data at every turn.
Does anyone have any idea if this information is somehow available?
I know there are different type of log avalaible (always thank to Ralph, your effort in this way is very appreciated), but i dont find one with the information that i need.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me.

Ps.
I hope the post is comprensible, actually my english is not very good then i translate my idea (written in italian) with google translate.

< Message edited by gianluca74_ai -- 2/14/2011 3:18:01 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/14/2011 2:50:02 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I am not sure if there's still a similar engine available. Your post reminds me of the complex strategic scripting at a CoSim called "Crisis", back in the mid-90s, by Dutch Owen. Courtesy to waybackmachine.com, here's the info and this might give you some tips for TOAW and strategic scripting as well. Dutch Owen called it CCL (CRISIS Command Language). I attached the document for your convenience.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060108125313/http://museum.sysun.com/crisis/index.html

Might be helpful. I guess RT is the only one who might answer you about some codes or scripting lines... I am nor a programmer. *Uncle* Larry (larryfulkerson) and Andy Edmiston (parmenio) seem to be the programming experts.

Hope that helped a tad.

kLiNk, Oberst

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 2/14/2011 2:52:35 PM >

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Post #: 2
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/14/2011 3:20:45 PM   
gianluca74_ai

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/14/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

I am not sure if there's still a similar engine available. Your post reminds me of the complex strategic scripting at a CoSim called "Crisis", back in the mid-90s, by Dutch Owen. Courtesy to waybackmachine.com, here's the info and this might give you some tips for TOAW and strategic scripting as well. Dutch Owen called it CCL (CRISIS Command Language). I attached the document for your convenience.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060108125313/http://museum.sysun.com/crisis/index.html

Might be helpful. I guess RT is the only one who might answer you about some codes or scripting lines... I am nor a programmer. *Uncle* Larry (larryfulkerson) and Andy Edmiston (parmenio) seem to be the programming experts.

Hope that helped a tad.

kLiNk, Oberst

Thanks for your answer,
the document is very interesting.

Gianluca

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 3
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/14/2011 3:41:51 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I thought so... Il mio alleato italiano... :)

Again, ask Uncle Larry or Andy about the programing stuff. If you're able to get hold of Ralph, that's even better *no offence Larry/Andy*.

kLiNk, Oberst



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Post #: 4
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/14/2011 7:03:19 PM   
larryfulkerson


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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
....Uncle Larry or Andy....

Um.......I'm not aware of any log file that contains the information you're probably looking for but I'm proficient in Java and I'd love to help you with this. Just lemme know what you need and I'll see what I can do. That new way of getting the AI tracks ( keystroke 'x' ) is really helpful and I've used it to try to get a handle on the tracks already existing. I've even modified a few tracks already. I hope it's not too much trouble to try to automate something along these lines. I'd like to try to work on something with you. Gimme an email explaining what you have in mind. I'm at fulkersonlarry60 (at) gmail (dot ) com.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
*no offence Larry/Andy*.

no problemo




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Post #: 5
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/14/2011 7:29:32 PM   
parmenio

 

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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

If you're able to get hold of Ralph, that's even better *no offence Larry/Andy*.



Hey, I resemble that remark!

Definitely talking to Ralph will, in the end, be the optimum solution - it's talking to the Horse's Mouth versus the Horse's....
....well you get the idea

A StratAI layer for TOAW is definitely an interesting idea - making Elmer situationly aware. One of *top* additions for me in 3.4 was the ability to off-load some of the work to Elmer in the larger scenarios - particularly movement.

At the end of the day, *anything* is possible. I had no proper access to the full scenario data until Ralph helped out with that one.

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Post #: 6
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/14/2011 7:51:10 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Hey, I am canvassing for you and Larry! :P I'm still waiting for RT's .XML definition list to decipher some of the description bits within the .GAM / .OOB file...

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Post #: 7
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/16/2011 10:18:24 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
Hey, I am canvassing for you and Larry! :P I'm still waiting for RT's .XML definition list to decipher some of the description bits within the .GAM / .OOB file...

Anybody know what kinds of XML files can be obtained from the editor? I've heard of an OOB XML file and a map XML file but I'm not aware of any others. Maybe we can use the XML files from the editor for the data we need to do the strategic layer program. ???

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Post #: 8
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/17/2011 1:09:50 AM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6685
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
Hey, I am canvassing for you and Larry! :P I'm still waiting for RT's .XML definition list to decipher some of the description bits within the .GAM / .OOB file...

Anybody know what kinds of XML files can be obtained from the editor? I've heard of an OOB XML file and a map XML file but I'm not aware of any others. Maybe we can use the XML files from the editor for the data we need to do the strategic layer program. ???

Larry,
You can dump the entire SCE file into XML and create a new scenario and reload it. It should be 100% from the editor standpoint. I want to eventually switch to using compressed XML for the scenario files, so this was a start of that.

I've also provided a .Net interface for things like the scenario viewer that will allow someone to open a sce file and get that same XML dump. The easiest place to get those would be from downloading the scenario viewer.

I'm pretty sure that it will also open SAL (single player) files, although I don't think I allow you to modify or save them. I don't think I provide the scenario variables like the turn number.

If the project gets that far, adding in the hook to save parts of the XML file (or all of it) into the SAL file should be fairly simple.

What I'm saying is that I think that all the pieces (except for saving the path and possibly formation changes) back into a save file are there.

Ralph


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Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
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Post #: 9
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/17/2011 1:08:48 PM   
gianluca74_ai

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/14/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

I'm pretty sure that it will also open SAL (single player) files, although I don't think I allow you to modify or save them. I don't think I provide the scenario variables like the turn number.


Hi Ralph,
this mean that i can open a SAL file in the editor (or scenario viewer?) and get an XML dump of the actual turn of the game?
Thanks

P.s.
I tried for curiosity to run a game computer vs computer (scenario Red Thunder), the work you did with Elmer is very impressive.

(in reply to ralphtricky)
Post #: 10
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 2/22/2011 10:47:33 AM   
gianluca74_ai

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/14/2011
Status: offline 		Hello everyone,
an update on the status of my project:
Indeed, all, or nearly so, the information that i was seeking for are available.
I did not realize that the SAL file is equivalent to an SCE file.
Meanwhile, I would specify the initial aim of the project:
1) Automate the management of Elmer, in other words a scenario with no Elmer's management will be played against the PO.

2) To make Elmer sensitive to changes in the game situation, and make it more dynamic, but not to tactical level, only to a strategic level, a sort of High Command responsible of all Formations.

The project is ambitious and undoubtedly difficult, but being my hobby I have no problem of time.
As already mentioned all of the code will initially be developed in ABAP, the programming language that I use daily for my work.
In the second stage will be the translation into Java, in order to deliver you all the code.
In any case, the ABAP syntax is similar to that of Java, so anyone familiar with Java will be able to re-translate the code.

For the moment it is all good day.

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Post #: 11
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 3/1/2011 10:28:17 AM   
Anthony_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Melbourne, Vic, Australia
Status: offline 		Howdy

I have tried opening SAL files in Andy's editor and my prototype editor with no luck - it fails in the ReadScenario() method of the .Net class.  Tried loading a scenario save file, both as a .SAL file and renamed as .SCE - in both cases the file did not load.

Has anyone else had any luck loading saved games ?

Anthony




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Post #: 12
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 3/1/2011 12:47:53 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Tried the same, BUT... that would open the door for all kinds of cheats, being able to see what's up in a saved game, no?

kLiNk, Oberst

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Post #: 13
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 3/1/2011 1:42:57 PM   
gianluca74_ai

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/14/2011
Status: offline 		Reading the data from the .SAL file is the prerequisite for my project.
I'm proceeding in this way :

1) Rename .SAL in .SCE

2) Open .SCE in TOAW editor

3) Dump .SCE in xml

Now i can read all the information that i need from another software, parsing the XML obtained.

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Post #: 14
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 3/1/2011 2:07:23 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		let's hope not too many will take an advantage out of it to have a theatre recon option of 100% tsk tsk ;)

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Post #: 15
RE: Strategic Layer for Elmer - 3/1/2011 5:05:15 PM   
gianluca74_ai

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/14/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

let's hope not too many will take an advantage out of it to have a theatre recon option of 100% tsk tsk ;)


I think (or at least i hope) that PBEM file are different from a normal .SAL file, the trick should not work.

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Post #: 16
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