Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I didn't know it was your first PBEM Senno, really you were projecting an image of someone looking for trouble, trying to pick a fight LOL

quote:

ORIGINAL: Senno

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: Senno
Sorry, but that's what i see.

Only a fool won't change his mind when faced with some good arguments.

I agree with the reasonable you.

And I find BA's, ComradeP's findings along with the other testers believable and their arguments good. IE: Winter = survivable and no supermen. I suspect that since the math is hidden (how they arrive at final CV and odds) people will continue to call both sides supermen until it is revealed. And that might be a good thing, if only to quiet an ongoing source of controversy. I know many people like the hidden math, as they feel it gives them an advantage after they do the work and uncover the arcane formula.

At least until we have the results of current games. And games that are quit before resolution don't really count. So we are still waiting on BA and Speedy. Then fix away if they can demonstrate a problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Senno

oleg, I suspect ComradeP would be a more fun game for you and a better test overall. But I shall play you (either side, your choice) if desired. I can commit to a turn a day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Senno

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


Senno how about you play German and try to survive the blizzard vs me? I don't know how good ("competent", Pieter would say) you are....

I'm not. But I shall do my best for posterity.

Or do you want to play germans and run over me? I'm equally bad, so your choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Well - I take this all on board.

Cant say anything even in this thread has made me feel better about the game as there seems to be a consensus even from different sides of the fence it is in fact broken - at least as far as the GC goes - which is in fact all I am interested in. The seeming lack of any official input into the argument doesnt augur well for it being fixed anytime soon either.

Still, had a couple of friends who were going to buy but I told them to hold off - at least I know I can tell them to wait a couple of years for the field marshal edition and keep them as friends!

I will repeat what I wrote previously in one other similar thread - there is great 1942-1945 campaign if anyone feels / thinks that Barbarossa (i.e. 1st winter) rules are currently too adverse!

WitE is great fun to play and enjoy with plethora of scenarios (big and small)!


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: JW
I don't want my wife to eviscerate me

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves
Mmmm.. yes I know my history thankyou very much ... however what you are doing is equating open terrain on the WITE map with the open terrain the article talks about ... even in a clear terrain hex on the WITE map there would have been hundreds not if not thousands of hamlets villages, etc ... I am well aware of the hedgehog nature of the german defence in winter 41 and the absolutely vital nature of housing in that defence. the point is the game doesnt take any of this into account ... A single dot on the WITE map - for which there is some limited benefit in game does not an argument make. The point is the effects on this scale are too severe - the effects of villages, hamlets etc are tactical and I think should be simulated at a more abstract level than in the game. I am struggling somewhat to see your point other than it reinforcing those who are arguing the effects are too severe - indeed your last point serves only to illustrate this in that there appears to be no benefit in being fortified in game as far as the first winter effects goes when your quote illustrates that in reality - even a simple dug out had a massive impact.

Sorry - but leaving your somewhat insulting critisism of my knowledge aside I really think you have entirely failed to make any kined of valid point that they have it anywhere near right - indeed - quite the contrary.

I didn't mean to insult anyone here.

I agree with you that protective properties of towns should be extended to neighboring hexes to better reflect WiTE scale and leaders Admin rating should have a role in the damage units take from blizzard. I also think that there's something missing - as a limiting factor - regarding logistics in the concept of offensive combat readiness (see my "over analyzing" posts regarding including Supply into the Ready/Unready equation).

You mention "simple entrechments". They weren't that simple, it seems, because if not I wonder why the units on the flanks of the 6. PzDiv didn't do the same thing. Obviously, it wasn't something common.

You know your history? You should cite it then, as I do.

My point is very clear: WiTE designers did their homework - just take a look at the Suggested Reading chapter on the manual - and put forward reasonable rules for simulating weather conditions. That these rules need balancing, yes, indeed. That's something already acknowledged by 2by3, as cookie monster has pointed out.

It took me half an hour to answer your post. You felt insulted and you took a mere five minutes on trying to portrait me as trolling you.

Perhaps should be better than you avoid these forums after all: the quality of the discussion would improve substantially.

Oh, and have a nice day.

Quite how you know how long it took me to answer you is beyond me. The quality of argument on these boards would improve substantially if people just made their points - without feeling the need to impune others knowledge as a preamble simply because they think they know more than others. If you look at your original post that is what you did. You could have made your point without suggesting "I read my History". Really - if thats what trolling is - then thats precisley what you did.

I have read more than enough history on this war - but I make the assumption in posting that others have too. I certainly dont arrogantly suggest they havent as my opening gambit. For reference its whats called good manners.

quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Well - I take this all on board.

Cant say anything even in this thread has made me feel better about the game as there seems to be a consensus even from different sides of the fence it is in fact broken - at least as far as the GC goes - which is in fact all I am interested in. The seeming lack of any official input into the argument doesnt augur well for it being fixed anytime soon either.

Still, had a couple of friends who were going to buy but I told them to hold off - at least I know I can tell them to wait a couple of years for the field marshal edition and keep them as friends!

I will repeat what I wrote previously in one other similar thread - there is great 1942-1945 campaign if anyone feels / thinks that Barbarossa (i.e. 1st winter) rules are currently too adverse!

WitE is great fun to play and enjoy with plethora of scenarios (big and small)!

Have you ever played a PBEM of the 42 start date? Have you ever WON as the German in that game? it is not the same
thing to me. Your Idea has merit but not for me. I bought this game because i want fight the whole East Front.

Madgamer2

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Because that is how it went historically - the Germans (and Japan) simply didn't have chance....

For me the German "victory" in WitE (same as Japanese victory in WitP / WitP-AE) would only be overall defeat but being better than history!

In other words when game ends in WitE I would consider victory if I would be able to hold Soviets 10 HEXes east of Berlin (although this is practical defeat)...


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Because that is how it went historically - the Germans (and Japan) simply didn't have chance....

For me the German "victory" in WitE (same as Japanese victory in WitP / WitP-AE) would only be overall defeat but being better than history!

In other words when game ends in WitE I would consider victory if I would be able to hold Soviets 10 HEXes east of Berlin (although this is practical defeat)...


Leo "Apollo11"

Hi,

here we have one statement - that cause big problems for me.
Why?
Cause the russian rush to berlin isn´t as clear as it seems.
If the only chance for german side is to reach such a result (and i doubt that even this could be possible in the moment, cause the mechanismen prefer "overhelming attacks") you describe, there is no fun for playing both sides in a gc. (nothing against some interesting scenarios)

The winterproblem suits perfect and is no problem but wad.
At last with your comment about the war.

Could you explain why a competent german player never could have the chance of deliver much better results? (i do not say "crushing victories in 43 oder 44, just a better situation with a frontline in russia?

the russians bled white in their offensive operations, that is a historical fact. And that is with all the mistakes the germans (not only hitler) did after Kursk.

I can´t see a lot mistakes by the russians after kursk (beside beeing to generous with the loss of life of the own troops)

I really like to read some points that explain such opinion like yours. (no pun intend)

japan in witp? yes, you are right. after midway even the brits had beaten the japanese alone (with support of australia, canada and new zealand), but in the eastern front?
Everything i learned about ww2-eastern front tells something different. And we talk about gc, not a game starting right after kursk (here i agree completly)

Greetings

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso
EDIT: in addition, I don't understand why fighting around Kursk in 1945 is funnier than fighting around Berlin in 1945.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso
EDIT: in addition, I don't understand why fighting around Kursk in 1945 is funnier than fighting around Berlin in 1945.

They simply don't want to see the FACTS. After the catastrophic blizzard the Germans only managed to perform a LIMITED offensive in the south. And to do so they had to literally scrap the barrel: minor Axis Allies covering the flanks of the advancing German armies (which of course led to the 6th Army disaster), men from the AGN and AGC were needed... And we are talking about the 1942 year If this does NOT prove this war was too much for the Germans then boy... Only a German fanboyism may explain it!

It has already been said ad nauseam. A German "victory" is the Soviets at let's say 10 hexes of Berlin at the end of the scenario or something like that (Berlin not captured that is). Oh well...

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

They simply don't want to see the FACTS. After the catastrophic blizzard the Germans only managed to perform a LIMITED offensive in the south. And to do so they had to literally scrap the barrel: minor Axis Allies covering the flanks of the advancing German armies (which of course led to the 6th Army disaster), men from the AGN and AGC were needed... And we are talking about the 1942 year If this does NOT prove this war was too much for the Germans then boy... Only a German fanboyism may explain it!

It has already been said ad nauseam. A German "victory" is the Soviets at let's say 10 hexes of Berlin at the end of the scenario or something like that (Berlin not captured that is). Oh well...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I honestly don't know why would anyone accept playing 42 GC vs human, it's like taking over a football/soccer game when you're 0:2 down at halftime.

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Because if at the end you lose "only" 0:4 you "win".

Well, I guess you don't like the 44 campaign either...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

They simply don't want to see the FACTS. After the catastrophic blizzard the Germans only managed to perform a LIMITED offensive in the south. And to do so they had to literally scrap the barrel: minor Axis Allies covering the flanks of the advancing German armies (which of course led to the 6th Army disaster), men from the AGN and AGC were needed... And we are talking about the 1942 year If this does NOT prove this war was too much for the Germans then boy... Only a German fanboyism may explain it!

It has already been said ad nauseam. A German "victory" is the Soviets at let's say 10 hexes of Berlin at the end of the scenario or something like that (Berlin not captured that is). Oh well...

Generally speaking I perfectly agree with your reasoning....

Incidentally, that's why I say that 42 campaign and Op Blau scenarios that some people suggest playing, will end in tears. It just puts Axis is *disastrous* situation right from the start (as it should be, it's not game's fault). 42 AARs written so far prove me right. I honestly don't know why would anyone accept playing 42 GC vs human, it's like taking over a football/soccer game when you're 0:2 down at halftime.

So, the main reason to play 41 GC as Germans is probably not to win outright, but to get better than historic positions for 42 and beyond!

However, that's the problem - current winter mess simply prevents them from EVER getting "better than history" lines in 42! That's why I named my AAR "In search for spring miracle" because that's the current goal of this game and community, to find the formula for playable spring 42, for games that start in 41.

quote:

it's like taking over a football/soccer game when you're 0:2 down at halftime.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Senno, don't worry about the Finns. They are basically irrelevant on this story as long as the Germans do not capture Leningrad, link with them. The Soviet player has to block the frontier line though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

However, the war did NOT end in 1942. It didnt end in 1943. In fact after losing an entire army,
Manstein still fought them to a draw in the spring of 1943.

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

However, the war did NOT end in 1942. It didnt end in 1943. In fact after losing an entire army,
Manstein still fought them to a draw in the spring of 1943.

To a draw? Do you mean that in the spring of 1943 things were 50%/50%?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

However, the war did NOT end in 1942. It didnt end in 1943. In fact after losing an entire army,
Manstein still fought them to a draw in the spring of 1943.

To a draw? Do you mean that in the spring of 1943 things were 50%/50%?

Without defining what 50%/50% means, that is hard to answer.
Between April and June of 1943 I see no significant Red Army drives.

In terms of Grand Strategy, things were still bad for the Germans.

It would be an interesting scenario to postulate a Soviet offensive in the teeth of a
full strength German panzer force.

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

However, the war did NOT end in 1942. It didnt end in 1943. In fact after losing an entire army,
Manstein still fought them to a draw in the spring of 1943.

To a draw? Do you mean that in the spring of 1943 things were 50%/50%?

Without defining what 50%/50% means, that is hard to answer.
Between April and June of 1943 I see no significant Red Army drives.

In terms of Grand Strategy, things were still bad for the Germans.

It would be an interesting scenario to postulate a Soviet offensive in the teeth of a
full strength German panzer force.

My definition of 50%/50% is as follows:

Germany (and allied nations) had A% of probabilities of winning the war.
The Soviet Union (and allied nations) had B% of probabilities of winning the war.

and then, A=B

There could be a draw, defined by C%=100-A-B

(But perhaps when you mentioned a draw, you were referring to a "temporary" draw...?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"However, that's the problem - current winter mess simply prevents them from EVER getting "better than history" lines in 42! "

Oleg,

No offense, but having read this unfounded psychorigid chorus one too many times, one must conclude that your manifold failures to acheive this goal simply means that you are simply less able than the original Feldmarschals. That you can't should not impugne other's abilities.

I, too, beleive that a German victory in the game is decided on the last turn, on the outskirts of Berlin. And this is how the Axis player should conduct the campaign.

Marquo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo
No offense, but having read this unfounded psychorigid chorus one too many times, one must conclude that your manifold failures to acheive this goal simply means that you are simply less able than the original Feldmarschals. That you can't should not impugne other's abilities.