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PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 3/14/2011 8:24:06 PM   
Firebri


Posts: 291
Joined: 3/9/2011
From: Bristol
Status: offline 		They are both going to be out very soon. What a good time for this type of game.
Post #: 1
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 3/14/2011 9:12:02 PM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		The age old problem........

Two fronts to fight on and not enough time to play

But I will give it a fighting try !!!

Who needs sleep

But not starting anything, by CMSF is 110% deleted the day/ night I get my download link


< Message edited by Richie61 -- 3/14/2011 10:28:44 PM >

_____________________________

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




(in reply to Firebri)
Post #: 2
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 3/14/2011 9:39:12 PM   
Firebri


Posts: 291
Joined: 3/9/2011
From: Bristol
Status: offline 		Not enought time ! tell me about it. Have you seen how many battles there are in Ostfront ! lol

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Post #: 3
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 3/15/2011 2:21:56 PM   
diablo1

 

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerbri

Not enought time ! tell me about it. Have you seen how many battles there are in Ostfront ! lol


Actually no they won't release it so we can all see.

_____________________________

X3:Universe of games rules them all!! Xtra coming soon X3:REBIRTH 4th qtr 2011 YAY!

(in reply to Firebri)
Post #: 4
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 3/16/2011 1:33:31 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I show 78 scenarios on my hard drive. Some of those are scenarios that are my own Works in Progress and at least some of those won't make it into the release. Which is okay, they can be made available after the release...

Then there are 11 campaigns in the game at the moment of which at least 1 of mine is not included so that should be 12.

Maybe that'll give you a better idea of what to expect with PCO.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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Post #: 5
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 3/16/2011 1:51:04 AM   
tide1527


Posts: 24
Joined: 3/6/2009
Status: offline 		MR that's a motherload of playing time. What can a person say

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RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 3/16/2011 2:18:39 AM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tide1527

MR that's a motherload of playing time. What can a person say


and of course, if you get tired of playing those scenarios and campaigns, you can always play some Random battles, or even pick from 15 different Random campaigns that run from as few as 4 battles up to 120 battles.

Rick

(in reply to tide1527)
Post #: 7
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 3/16/2011 2:22:51 AM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tide1527

MR that's a motherload of playing time. What can a person say


We've tried to stay busy while all the kinks get worked out of the code. It also explains why when we tell you changes have to be playtested that can take a bit of time. We don't just have 10 scenarios here.

Anyone that's ever made a campaign can appreciate all the work that goes into those as well.

Add to that the weather conditions, differing map sizes,lighting,random settings, play balance, etc. and you begin to see all the work a single change to the code can bring to those of us that have scenarios in the update.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 3/16/2011 2:26:03 AM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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Post #: 8
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/10/2011 5:42:12 PM   
Firebri


Posts: 291
Joined: 3/9/2011
From: Bristol
Status: offline 		Any news, is good news. What's the word on the demo ?

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RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/10/2011 6:17:36 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		It's out of the modder's and modeller's hands now. Final polish is being applied.

I'm kind of thinking of things ahead. But once it is released I'm sure people will have ideas of future things that we haven't even contemplated.

No way to compare it to CMBN as that's not out yet either. I did notice some ppl. thought CMBN to have invented relative spotting.

(in reply to Firebri)
Post #: 10
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/10/2011 6:32:47 PM   
Yoozername

 

Posts: 1121
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline 		I say the race between them should be 'The Bulge'.  Who gets there first.  I especially like this website for KT info:

http://www.ss501panzer.com/research_sources_for_schwere_ss.htm

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Post #: 11
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/10/2011 9:46:12 PM   
Mad Russian


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

I say the race between them should be 'The Bulge'.  Who gets there first. 


Going strictly by the stated policies of both companies there won't really be a head to head race to the Bulge.

CM had gone to a modular form of release for their game series and PC is moving towards more of a theater form for it's series. So, while you should get a bulge gamette from BFC, you more than likely won't be getting one for PC4. What you will more likely getting with PC4 will be the entire Western Front; with the Bulge just being one of the battles/campaigns/operations included in the whole.

At some point, and I figure that to be after the release of PCO and CMBN, the two game systems will be seen by the gaming public to not be in the same category.

Much like apples and oranges, while both are fruit - they aren't really comparable, hence the admonition "like comparing apples to oranges". PC4 and any CMx2 module won't really be comparable except as covering part of the same time period. I expect there to be some who will prefer each and many that will play both.

What hopefully will happen is the some of the better features of each game system will get put into both systems. Then we all win, no matter which scale you prefer.

The real question for me is where does PC go after NWE? The Pacific? Another time period? 1940? The Med?

Because realistically once the theater has been done...it's been done. No need to keep hanging another set of clothes on it and redoing it over and over. Time to set some gaming precedent and move a tactical game series out of JUST the Eastern Front and NWE! PC is just the series to be able to do that with the open code where modders can add all the content that we may not give you with the original game. Or even different models/maps/weapons of what we do give you.

So, I think it's time to start thinking in terms of where you would like to see PC evolve to. Not just the Battle of the Bulge, which we will surely give you, but beyond that. We all know that PC4 will be NWE. We also have a really good idea that PC4 will take the series to a place where it will deliver in all combat modes infantry/armor/artillery/air with equally detailed combat models. IMO, and IMO only, all that's left is to get gamer input on the features you would like to see in PC4 and where you would like to see the series go after that.

If you think about it, PCO was made by gamers just like you. All of us were volunteers. We made the changes to the system we wanted to see. After PCO is released, and you see where we've taken it, then it will be your turn to comment, not only on what we've done so far, but what YOU the CUSTOMER would like to see in future games of the series.

Good Hunting.

MR




< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/10/2011 9:50:40 PM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Yoozername)
Post #: 12
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/10/2011 11:43:41 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		Or both could converge at Arnhem Bridge. I built that bridge once before for miniatures. I still have the photos.

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Post #: 13
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/10/2011 11:55:16 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		How hard would it be to recreate the bridge in PC4 using the Map Maker editor? Should we expect to see 'THE' Arnhem Bridge in PC4?

Or the village of St. Mere Eglise?

Or other historical sites in detail?

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mobius)
Post #: 14
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 3:23:34 AM   
BigAlMoho1

 

Posts: 1
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

How hard would it be to recreate the bridge in PC4 using the Map Maker editor? Should we expect to see 'THE' Arnhem Bridge in PC4?

Or the village of St. Mere Eglise?

Or other historical sites in detail?

Good Hunting.

MR



Now, you've got my attention! Just keep on moving in that direction, please...

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 15
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 3:37:45 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		All we need is a budget.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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Post #: 16
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 4:56:13 AM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
How hard would it be to recreate the bridge in PC4 using the Map Maker editor? Should we expect to see 'THE' Arnhem Bridge in PC4?
You don't need a MM to build the bridge itself. The land around it yes. There is one sticking point. The bridge and ramp have underpasses. You have to either ignore them or have a way for things to have two levels for land movement. So maybe PC4 will have tunnels, maybe not.

PC4 may not be on just on one theater. Contributors are like cats, they are pretty hard to herd. So battles may be all over the place if PC4 is guided by modder's interest.

I have lots of photos of the Stalingrad grain elevator. But, I don't currently want to spend 3 months on one map like I did with the Stalingrad railroad station.


< Message edited by Mobius -- 4/11/2011 4:57:56 AM >

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 17
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 6:00:22 AM   
Ratzki

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 8/18/2008
From: Chilliwack, British Columbia
Status: offline 		I liike the toolkit idea for PC4. Give us a good system, them turn out a module that adds features and units to the system, not just for a single battle or theatre, but were ever we want to go. That way we get to fight all over the globe and with forces that would not warrant a game unto itself. Spanish civil war, WW1, all could be in one giant toolkit of a game that keeps on expanding.

(in reply to Mobius)
Post #: 18
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 7:11:59 AM   
Joseph_Nevsky


Posts: 46
Joined: 7/28/2009
From: Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richie61

...The age old problem........

Two fronts to fight on and not enough time to play

But I will give it a fighting try !!! ...



+1

I´ll give a try to both: PCO and CM:BN



But if you, Matrix Games, want to win with your PCO, here you are a suggestion: add a new layer to the game. An operational layer, for instance.

Which one...?

Exactly!!: "Panzer Command Campaigns", an operational wargame where you command forces up to a Division in size during the WWII. Working in tandem with Panzer Command game engine, Panzer Command Campaigns will allow to command the troops at the operational level and then play out the resulting battles at the tactical level.

Yes, a wargamer´s dream.

And you´ll win for sure "in your battle vs. Battlefront" if you work on this!!

_____________________________


(in reply to Richie61)
Post #: 19
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 8:31:21 AM   
spellir74


Posts: 2065
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseph_Nevsky


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richie61

...The age old problem........

Two fronts to fight on and not enough time to play

But I will give it a fighting try !!! ...



+1

I´ll give a try to both: PCO and CM:BN



But if you, Matrix Games, want to win with your PCO, here you are a suggestion: add a new layer to the game. An operational layer, for instance.

Which one...?

Exactly!!: "Panzer Command Campaigns", an operational wargame where you command forces up to a Division in size during the WWII. Working in tandem with Panzer Command game engine, Panzer Command Campaigns will allow to command the troops at the operational level and then play out the resulting battles at the tactical level.

Yes, a wargamer´s dream.

And you´ll win for sure "in your battle vs. Battlefront" if you work on this!!



ahem...


(in reply to Joseph_Nevsky)
Post #: 20
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 5:43:38 PM   
Enigma6584

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

CM had gone to a modular form of release for their game series and PC is moving towards more of a theater form for it's series. So, while you should get a bulge gamette from BFC, you more than likely won't be getting one for PC4. What you will more likely getting with PC4 will be the entire Western Front; with the Bulge just being one of the battles/campaigns/operations included in the whole.

At some point, and I figure that to be after the release of PCO and CMBN, the two game systems will be seen by the gaming public to not be in the same category.




But we are not getting the entire theater with PCO. Correct? If I'm not mistaken, there are no Italian, Romanian, Hungarian or Finnish units in PCO. Will Matrix games include these in and upgrade or patch? Perhaps call it a module?

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 21
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 5:55:43 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Correct. You're not getting the entire theater with regards to any of the Axis Minors. They are the one missing piece of the theater. Those can be added with xml files by anyone. There are a few vehicles, etc. that aren't coming yet either. But it does cover 1941 through 1945 now with 99% of the equipment used during that time period.

We figured that it was better to release the update NOW than wait another 3 or 4 months adding the Axis Minors.

I'm not sure it's been decided on about the time scale for PC4. If it's to be June 44 and later or September 1939 and later.

I do know it's to be in Western Europe and will cover no less than NWE.

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/11/2011 5:56:42 PM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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Post #: 22
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 6:03:17 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseph_Nevsky

And you´ll win for sure "in your battle vs. Battlefront" if you work on this!!


The only real battle we're in is the one with the P/L chart attached.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Joseph_Nevsky)
Post #: 23
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 6:50:46 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedCharlie65
If I'm not mistaken, there are no Italian, Romanian, Hungarian or Finnish units in PCO. Will Matrix games include these in and upgrade or patch? Perhaps call it a module?

A few years ago I made some data tables for light weapons and infantry of Romanian, Italian, Finnish and Hungarian. So if anyone wants to make the models they can be included.

You don't need to wait for Matrix to make the modules. Using the included tools and with the open system you are welcome to build these yourself.

For example: 
<gun caliber="8" type="Schwarzlose 07/31M">
  <ammunition destruction="9" stun="16" type="AP">
  	<tohits>
  		<tohit number="1" range="0"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="1" range="100"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="2" range="200"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="3" range="250"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="4" range="300"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="5" range="400"></tohit>
  	</tohits>
  	<penetrations>
  		<penetration number="0.5" range="100"></penetration>
  		<penetration number="0.4" range="200"></penetration>
  		<penetration number="0.3" range="300"></penetration>
  		<penetration number="0.2" range="400"></penetration>
  	</penetrations>
  </ammunition>


< Message edited by Mobius -- 4/11/2011 6:54:44 PM >

(in reply to Enigma6584)
Post #: 24
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 7:39:36 PM   
Ratzki

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 8/18/2008
From: Chilliwack, British Columbia
Status: offline 		Will Matrix be releasing some data .PDF's or whatever, to keep the stats consistent that everyones games will use as the visual MODs are created? It is one thing to build the graphics and another to make sure that the weapons being built are consistant with their historical conterparts.

(in reply to Mobius)
Post #: 25
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/11/2011 10:46:16 PM   
Enigma6584

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedCharlie65
If I'm not mistaken, there are no Italian, Romanian, Hungarian or Finnish units in PCO. Will Matrix games include these in and upgrade or patch? Perhaps call it a module?

A few years ago I made some data tables for light weapons and infantry of Romanian, Italian, Finnish and Hungarian. So if anyone wants to make the models they can be included.

You don't need to wait for Matrix to make the modules. Using the included tools and with the open system you are welcome to build these yourself.

For example: 
<gun caliber="8" type="Schwarzlose 07/31M">
  <ammunition destruction="9" stun="16" type="AP">
  	<tohits>
  		<tohit number="1" range="0"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="1" range="100"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="2" range="200"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="3" range="250"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="4" range="300"></tohit>
  		<tohit number="5" range="400"></tohit>
  	</tohits>
  	<penetrations>
  		<penetration number="0.5" range="100"></penetration>
  		<penetration number="0.4" range="200"></penetration>
  		<penetration number="0.3" range="300"></penetration>
  		<penetration number="0.2" range="400"></penetration>
  	</penetrations>
  </ammunition>



I only hope Matrix puts out official modules for the Axis minors. I would rather pay money for an official module/upgrade than rely on an "unofficial" modification. I've always enjoyed playing the Axis minors in CMBB. There was one mission I remember which was a blast. It involved an Italian Infantry battalion taking two bridges from the Russians. Never knew too much about it, starting reading what-ever I could about Italians in Russia. It was a lot of fun. Of course playing Finish was a blast, Hungarian TO&Es were interesting to play with. You guys have got to include at some point in time Axis minor modules.

(in reply to Mobius)
Post #: 26
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/12/2011 1:44:27 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		If you give us enough time we'll do it for you. But somebody will more than likely want them before we get around to doing them.

The good news is that the game won't play H2H unless all the data for the game matches. So your opponent has to have the same data that you're using.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Enigma6584)
Post #: 27
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/12/2011 2:22:30 AM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedCharlie65
There was one mission I remember which was a blast. It involved an Italian Infantry battalion taking two bridges from the Russians. Never knew too much about it, starting reading what-ever I could about Italians in Russia.

Italian squads are really hard to do in platoons. They actually have very large squads of about 14-20 men. To work in PC they would have to be broken into two different 7-10 man sections. One that contain both LMGs and the other just rifles.

For example the Bersaglieri squad would be composed of two sections or groups: 

<infantry month="1" morale="+1.9.2" points="5" side="Italian" type="Bersaglieri Fucilieri" year="40" movetype="0">
 <guns>
   <gun gunid="Rifle M91 Gruppo/41" rof="8"></gun>
 </guns>

 
<infantry month="1" morale="+1.9.2" points="9" side="German" type="Bersaglieri Mitraglieri" year="40" movetype="0">
 <guns>
  <gun gunid="Rifle w/2LMG Gruppo/41" rof="11"></gun>
 </guns>



< Message edited by Mobius -- 4/12/2011 2:23:16 AM >

(in reply to Enigma6584)
Post #: 28
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/12/2011 4:44:53 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I don't see that as a problem. We have vehicle platoons that can 20 vehicles in them. I see no reason that an infantry squad couldn't have more or less than 10 men.

The FS/FJ squads are big too and there are going to be lots of them in PC4.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mobius)
Post #: 29
RE: PC: Ostfront Vs CM: Normandy - 4/14/2011 4:38:29 PM   
diablo1

 

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		What I don't understand is why the move away from random maps generated by the computer? As much power as computers have today I don't see why this isn't a standard feature anymore. You got random battles and random campaigns and you can't make random maps? At least this one has random campaigns over CM:NM which doesn't have any random campaigns. BF wants you to buy every single idea they have now with that module system and I'm just not going to buy into it unless Paradox picks up the line and sells it for $4 like they did CMSF. I don't like BF's elicense DRM either. Just more hoops to jump through to buy, install and play a damn game.

_____________________________

X3:Universe of games rules them all!! Xtra coming soon X3:REBIRTH 4th qtr 2011 YAY!

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 30
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