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RE: More Dispatches from OKH: Q-ball (A) v Von Beanie (R) Rnd 2

 
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RE: More Dispatches from OKH: Q-ball (A) v Von Beanie ... - 3/9/2011 4:56:08 PM   
Reconvet

 

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Top AAR by the way, thanks for sharing this. Has to be pretty nerve-wrecking for the SU player to deal with what you serve him here.

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RE: More Dispatches from OKH: Q-ball (A) v Von Beanie ... - 3/9/2011 5:05:34 PM   
Reconvet

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko



I was being somewhat ironic.... but now that you mentioned it, why do you think units gain strength faster if attached to non Stavka armies (ie, front armies?).

My own strategy, when forming a shock armies who I need to perform better than others, is to leave them in white counters, ie attached directly to Stavka. Regular run of the mill, stop-the-Germans-at-all-costs armies get attached to Fronts. Is this wrong and if so why?



This should probably be discussed somewhere else. I'm not quite comfortable with hijacking AAR's.

STAVKA can't be 5 hexes near all new shell arrivals. 5 hexes are supply range, so these units fill up quicker near their direct HQ (admin leader roll). I place STAVKA armies in digging positions where I park shells until they are ready for front duty. Costs me 1 admin point per such a unit buildup (and subsequent transfer to a front army), but I get them fit for the front 1 or 2 turns sooner than if they fill up from a railhead.




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Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 4:19:49 AM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		Anyway, back to the actual subject of the thread....

Turn 7 Dispatches from OKH:

I was away from the game a couple days, and it's late, not alot of time to sum-up. But I will.

In the NORTH, I made good progress around Leningrad, using HQ BUILDUP for one corps to make good progress, while the other Panzers had pretty good fuel. The Railhead is only a few hexes away, so supplies are not as much of a problem as elsewhere. See the map for progress, but I think it looks good so far...

In the CENTER, my parsimonious allocation of Panzers is showing itself; only 3 Panzer Corps here total, between them the 2 Panzer Armies actually have fewer AFVs than either wing. I really just want to push close to Moscow for a winter line.

In the SOUTH, VB pulled off the Dnepr between Kiev and Cherkassy. We are crossing most of the 6th Army over, and are moving into the Ukraine. Other forces are approaching Kirovgrad. All the Factories in the bend are gone already, though.

OBSERVATION: 18th army starts with some of the best Infantry Divisions in the Wehrmacht, along with alot of artillery and Pioneers. This has been helpful!





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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 2:07:57 PM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		Nice job around Leningrad. Too bad you could not get one more hex with the motorized troops from the standpoint of view that he will be able to rail in fresh troops to Leningrad if he has them. He is in big trouble there as fortifications around the city are almost nil and you should have no issues pushing him behind the Volkhov. Those guys on the hills will still be tough to kick out of there with level 3 forts in the rough, but after they are gone, that should free some space up. 

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Post #: 64
RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 2:16:10 PM   
Aussiematto

 

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Status: offline 		Nice work --- or. to some extent, less than perfect defence. I am having to close down the supply ports in my game - no chance of getting into Leningrad itself. fortunately, the strength of infantry in the city has meant the river was easily breached. Interestingly, the AI garrisons Leningrad and the Volkhov Line intensely -- perhaps reflecting GG's contention that Leningrad is the key objective? 

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 2:58:15 PM   
EntropyAvatar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Too bad you could not get one more hex with the motorized troops from the standpoint of view that he will be able to rail in fresh troops to Leningrad if he has them.  


I didn't think you could rail troops through a hex in the enemy ZOC.

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 3:12:03 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EntropyAvatar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Too bad you could not get one more hex with the motorized troops from the standpoint of view that he will be able to rail in fresh troops to Leningrad if he has them.  


I didn't think you could rail troops through a hex in the enemy ZOC.


You can't, but there is another rail line going into Leningrad to the east that the Russians can use to get into Leningrad proper.

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 4:05:59 PM   
EntropyAvatar

 

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Status: offline 		Ah, my apologies.

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 5:01:56 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		I really think you didn't need Panzers for what you're doing near LG... You could have borrowed ligh blue INF corps from AGM, and leave them Panzers they BADLY need. Panzers should be used to make encirclements, not to bulldoze the way forward.

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 6:14:57 PM   
Mynok


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IIRC, 2nd Army (light blue) is not nearly as experienced as the other German units. He would be better off shipping a veteran corps from 4th army and replacing it in the line with the 2nd Army. You need quality troops to take Leningrad.


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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 6:23:35 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
IIRC, 2nd Army (light blue) is not nearly as experienced as the other German units. He would be better off shipping a veteran corps from 4th army and replacing it in the line with the 2nd Army. You need quality troops to take Leningrad.


That's probably even better thing to do. However light blue units (an army? I thought it's a corps) are unlocked on turn 2 or 3, so are easily railed to AGN area, while 4th Army veterans are by that time already commited in AGM sector.

Anyhow, my point (and yours probably too) is that he doesn't need that many panzers up there. Infantry, maybe, even though for what he did in this game maybe he didn't even need the additional infantry neither. You need additional units if you're doing right hook over Volkhov river.... Q-Ball did left hook or direct approach.

My point being, great that he will most probably take LG, but it appears he will pay a heavy price in other sectors....

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 7:20:17 PM   
Mynok


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I agree it's probably time to send 4th panzer down to give 16th army some punch.

As far as 4th army goes, you'd want to plan from the start to get a corps up there of course. Easiest ones would be two small ones (4 divs, same as 2nd army) that start behind the line that I use to take Brest-Litovsk. They'll be right on the rail then and can move north immediately.

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/10/2011 9:00:36 PM   
Altaris

 

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Status: offline 		18th Army does indeed start off very nice. In particular, I Corps is in good shape if you put a top-notch leader in the Corps (I like Model for this one personally). I've thought about putting II Corps in 18th Army as well (18th is a little better than the II Corps native 16th Army), as it has a really nice punch to it too. Having I and II Corps as your hard hitters in AGN seems a good way to go for relatively cheap AP investment. The rest of 18th Army could provide an ideal "second string" for a really hard hitting army. I did something similar in my PBEM and manage to swing all the way around Lake Ilmen to the east and link up to the Finns, with I and II Corps leading the way and punching some really nice holes in the enemy lines.

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/11/2011 12:21:20 AM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		Actually, I think it worked out that he committed that type of panzer force to get to Leningrad because he got there fast enough that if he pulls them out now and refits for a turn, it is still early enough in the campaign he can send them someplace else and still have enough time to achieve some pretty decisive results. By getting stuff to Leningrad this fast, he actually cuts down on a lot of casualties and slogging through fortified Russians. What defenses the Russians have there won't last long against a 18th army that has not really been ground down fighting through the outlying fortifications. 

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/11/2011 1:20:21 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


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Status: offline 		My own 2 cents.  Too often the Panzers become untouchable, used only for deep exploitation.  Looking at the German successes, they drove the Panzers just as hard as any other units (look at the active AFV totals by late Sept 1941).  The 1941 campaign is an all out, caution to the wind, drive hard even with panzers type of campaign.

They can rest and regroup in the cities/urban areas in the Blizzard...

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/11/2011 1:33:43 AM   
Aussiematto

 

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Status: offline 		In operational terms the panzers committed to the assault on leningrad are not there to hammer fortified swampy infantry but to drive past them. I open holes in the defences, use the big movement values for the panzers to go through ZOCs and exploit a couple of hexed into the Russian defences. if you can get the supply right, you eventually get a chance to dash some panzers into the Ladoga ports. As elsewhere, avoid combat with panzers, and use them to manoeuvre the enemy into untenable positions.

On the 2nd Army question - the problem with 2nd Army (which can be just XXXVth Corps or one of the OKH reserve corps as well) is not just experience but, IMO, the lack of support units. In one AI game, I got 2nd Army stuck into some heavy fighting and had to burn APs to transfer support units from other corps. I now try to use 2nd Army as a screening force between AGN and AGC. If you do want to give 2nd Army some grunt (artillery and pioneers) raid the support units from the RHG headquarters -eg rail the RHG command from AGS (which has around 4 artillery units) until it's close to XXXVth corps HQ and point and click the support units across. Then disband the command to eke out a few thousand more men. Another option is to offload one of 9th Army to 2nd Army, picking a corps with lots of support, and the redistribute them between the 2 corps.

What I love about this game is that you have to think ahead -- you can shunt stuff around between areas and armies but it has to be done on a realistic timetable.

matt

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/11/2011 2:55:30 AM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		I would point out the Germans did pull out PG 2 and PG 3 for an approximately 2 week rest. I think above all the Germans have to be smart about the use of their panzer forces and this includes the range of knowing when to push it and when to rest em. Tired panzer troops just don't have the punch and are that much more vulnerable to a Russian counter move. My point is that the panzers have basically done their job up around Leningrad (paved the way to get the infantry there as quickly as possible). Pushing the Russians behind the Volkhov and wiping out Leningrad can be pretty much accomplished with the infantry at hand. The Volkhov line becomes totally unhinged once the Finns are officially in unless the Russians just want to lose more troops for no real purpose. The panzers there can either go back to AGC to help with the push there or to AGS to lay the hammer in good tank country. 

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/11/2011 3:06:59 AM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		OKH Dispatches, Turn 8:

A good debate on use of Panzers around Leningrad; this turn, I kept them all committed, because you can't clear 2-3 rows of hexes without Panzers, and I needed to cut the land connection to the city. Which we did.

Von Beanie, though, has prepared a very strong line along the Neva. With those troops there, and all the RR capacity he has used moving forts, he can't have much along the Vokhov. I think we need to push that way, and fast.

I appreciate that the terrain up there is not ideal for Panzers. At some point I will have to move them. But I really feel you need to push as hard and fast as possible to have a shot at Leningrad, and reaching Lake Ladoga on Turn 8 is pretty fast.

AGC: The drive on Bryansk stalled for lack of fuel. See shot below.

3rd Panzer Group (really, just one 4-division Panzer Corps plus infantry), is pushing on Vyazma. The objective here is just to create space toward Moscow.

AGS: 6th and 4th Armies are entirely across the Dnepr, and moving toward Sumy and Poltava.

We are pushing toward Krivoi Rog, which still has factories, but I expect those to be gone next turn. I hope I can get to D-Town or Z-Town in time to threaten those factories, but resistance has been tough down here.




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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/11/2011 3:13:25 AM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		Yeah, not getting one hex further east hurt from the standpoint of how much he was able to stuff into Leningrad. Oh well, more to capture later. :D

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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/11/2011 5:06:25 AM   
Aussiematto

 

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Status: offline 		Nice, very nice... do you think you can crack the city directly, without putting it out of supply? I am wary - my current PBEM has focused on getting to the ports and I've got many more infantry trapped inside Leningrad if I do. Be careful not to crush your infantry in the brutality of street - fighting. I think the design of WITE is really influenced by the Stalingrad situation - where apparently overwhelming odds (eg 100,000 men + with multiple artillery, support tanks, pioneers - what you get from 6 divisions, 2 corps) can be held up by troops in fort 4 cities.



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RE: Take this thread to Cuba - 3/12/2011 3:38:05 AM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		Turn 9, OKH Dispatches:

This turn is more of the same; my Landsers are trudging forward in the Russian Summer heat, while Army Group North slugs through the swamps and woods south of Leningrad. Russians are dying, but the Red Army lives to fight another day.

LOSSES TO DATE: So far, the Russians have lost 1.7 mil men, including 1.12 mil POWs. I am behind the pace of my last game, primarily, I think, due to Von Beanie's improved defense.

Gone are the stacks with gaps, replaced by Red Carpet. I pretty much can't fault his defense now, other than he is very willing to surrender ground, and trade space for saving the Red Army. Of those 1.1 mil POWs, probably 800K were isolated on Turn 1. Outside of that, I really haven't bagged anything other than a unit here and there.

AGN:
I planned to start pulling Panzers here but.....Sooooo tempting to whack more Soviet units, particularly when we see opportunities to ROUT a whole army. Which we basically did, including the displacement of the HQ.

We will push across the Volkhov in hopes of reaching the Finns along the Svir, which would "Finnish" Lenningrad..

Remember the guys in the last screenshot that I labelled: "If they stay here next turn, they will be routed"? Guess what: They stayed. And they were routed, part of the 15 unit refugees...

AGC:
We have surrounded Vyazma, including a unit inside. Otherwise, I am just threatening enough to force him to do a Von Beanie pullback.

AGS:
He is moving factories JUST ahead of me




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< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 3/12/2011 3:49:18 AM >

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Leningrad was Petrograd was St. Petersburg - 3/12/2011 11:15:06 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		Turn 10 Dispatches: Northern Fronts

I think we are going to take Leningrad; with 7 more turns of clear weather, we secured a key hex. He has a decision to make on whether to evacuate as many units as possible, or attempt to make a stand. I just couldn't clear the Port Hex itself, but otherwise, a great turn!!

Von Beanie attacked a single Panzer Regt. in Kolpino his turn. I left only Regts. to face Leningrad, to provide max effort toward the Volkhov. His Tank Div did nail my Panzers, but at a high price; he pulled a unit off the "Backdoor" hex, weakening it just enough for us to take it. 6 Infantry Divisions on Deliberate attack with lots of Heavy Guns (I moved most of them to 18th Army) and Pioneers cleared the hex. I moved Panzers in to secure it.

I also secured a bridgehead over the Volkhov, but I think I'll abandon that effort.

Happy days!




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RE: Leningrad was Petrograd was St. Petersburg - 3/13/2011 1:07:27 AM   
Mynok


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Status: offline 		Man, you have a good chance of isolating Leningrad there. Get those 18th army inf up there in place of your 4th panzer stuff and you are good.

EDIT: This was supposed to be in Senno's thread.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 3/15/2011 5:54:15 PM >

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RE: Leningrad was Petrograd was St. Petersburg - 3/13/2011 1:12:12 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Even with all those attachments, it still sounds like a very lucky roll. 40 offensive CV, divided by ~3 because of the major river would leave you with initial odds of 13 to 30 (unless he didn't make his rolls, which would reduce it to 15). You probably didn't get 100% command modifier either. I guess the pioniere got extremely favourable fort reduction rolls, as the Soviet defensive CV is mostly just forts.

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RE: Leningrad was Petrograd was St. Petersburg - 3/13/2011 6:49:51 PM   
Senno

 

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Status: offline 		Impressive as usual, Q-Ball.


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RE: Leningrad was Petrograd was St. Petersburg - 3/15/2011 3:58:58 AM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		Turn 12 Dispatches from OKH

I didn't post after turn 11 (busy), but not alot happened; mostly me either repositioning forces, or getting stopped.

I spent the turn around Leningrad sending my best Infantry across the Neva. It worked; this turn, we cleared Ostinovets, that port.

Leningrad:

See the shot below; Ostinovets has fallen, which mean Leningrad is toast, along with the 9 Rifle Divisions still there. It will take a couple turns to clean-up, but this was objective #1 of our Summer campaign. With a few turns left in the Summer, I will have some time to re-position forces.

First, I need to clear Leningrad and free the Finns; once I do that, I can relieve the troops along the Volkhov line. The Volkhov is proving too tough to crack, so we're going to send some Panzers to Novgorod, and hook back north to clear some space between this area and Leningrad.

I also plan to send Panzers to AGC, where I am behind...because I sent resources north. I also need to transfer some infantry to the south.

Bryansk Pocket: See shot; this is the pocket that won't die. We have spent 2 turns screwing around with it, but finally we have it closed for good, which will net 8 divisions. I will actually destroy some units next turn, first in a while.

What would you guys do with those 2 extra Panzer Corps for a few turns?





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< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 3/15/2011 4:10:30 AM >

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RE: Leningrad was Petrograd was St. Petersburg - 3/15/2011 4:09:05 AM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		Turn 12, Southern Front:

I am not real happy with the progress down here. Von Beanie is fighting hard for towns with factories, and the Red Carpet is frustrating; you need alot of Panzers to get through it.

He is pulling back his units just enough to keep my infantry mostly marching and not fighting much. His defense has been very good down here, so my progress isn't great.

V-B has remarked how much weaker my units seem than last game. I told him 3 reasons for that:

1. His defense is good
2. MORALE changes; no more 99-morale super Germans (or 70-morale Romanians). This does have an impact on the Wehrmacht. Gaining morale is very tough, and losing it easy, if you're over the National Morale. Over time, the Infantry trends toward the National Morale. I'm OK with that, because it also means no more 70-Morale Rifle Divisions either.
3. ARMAMENTS: I have 118K in the German pool, and climbing.

Love-Hate Relationship with Romanaian Troops

On the one hand, the Romanian Generals are terrible, and the troops pretty much stink.

On the other hand, you need all the boots you can get, and at least the Romanians manned-up and got into the fight, rather than stay behind "No Move" lines, or sending just a small Mobile Corps.

I can foresee in this game having to rely more and more on the Axis Allied troops to man the line, which is dangerous.




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RE: Leningrad was Petrograd was St. Petersburg - 3/15/2011 4:10:41 AM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		Good question on PG 4. I don't know why he is stacked up so heavily on the Volkhov. The whole line is crap once the Finns come in and blow across the Svir line unless he isn't thinking about them.

If he wants to stay stacked up on the line like that, I would have to consider a right hook with PG 4 under the lake to meet with the Finns coming across the Svir. Panzers don't have to run as far north and will have support from the Finns. Additional Finns will come blowing out of Leningrad to help clean up the mess on the river. Presto, lots of captured Russians and pretty much wipes out any ideas he may be entertaining on trying to get Leningrad back during the winter.

If you try to get them too far (like say sending them to AGS) I don't know that you have enough time to get them there, get them refueled, then have them accomplish anything meaningful before winter sets in. The other consideration is if you decide to launch a snow offensive or not. Certainly, they could come in handy for that.

Overall, since he seems tied to the Volkhov line, I would see about trying to go for a big pocket there perhaps, meeting up with the Finns from the Svir river line. You should still have plenty of time to get them withdrawn and rehabbed for the winter.



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RE: Leningrad was Petrograd was St. Petersburg - 3/15/2011 2:41:59 PM   
Schmauser

 

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Status: offline 		You have the makings of a decent pocket around Ztown if he slips a little.

You had commented previously about casulaties. In my current test game I am seeing fewer Soviet casualties even though I am enjoying more success. My sense is that the overall casualties are reduced by

1) The lower manpower numbers after patching.


2) Manpower that is retained in the pool due to an insufficiecy of weapons.


Time will tell if this haunts you or not as manpower in the pools is not gaining experience and will take some time to reach the units. My expectation is that this will slow his winter counter offensive as his striking power and movement is reduced.

FWIW, my understanding is that the Russians frequently put soldiers into the field without rifles even in 1942. The logic of course being that rifles become available once the shooting starts.


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Post #: 89
RE: Leningrad was Petrograd was St. Petersburg - 3/15/2011 2:55:32 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		OK, Q-Ball, this might be a good time to share your plans as to what you actually want to achieve in the center and the south. I can't really deduce a plan from the screenshot showing the lower half of AGC and AGS.

If I may suggest something: before planning on withdrawing the Panzers from the Volkhov, wait until you've seen his defenses when you receive the next turn. Specifically: if he's moving anything else into that hex with the 2=9 division north of your mobile units. He actually moved a unit out of that hex on his previous turn. A deliberate attack against it will probably remove it now that swamps are not fortresses anymore. If you remove it, you can get infantry across the Volkhov. When that happens, he's screwed and you can safely move the Panzers out.

I'd also encourage you to post/think about what you want to achieve with 4th Panzer Group now that Leningrad is doomed. As I see it, there's a vast wilderness east of Leningrad where no kind of advance is a real threat to the Soviet strategic situation. As such, if I were in your position, I'd simply move the entirety of 4th Panzer Group to AGC after the bridgehead across the Volkhov has been widened (preferably in that hex currently held by the 2=9 Rifle division)

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