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OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 3:58:44 AM

aprezto

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Hi Guys;

Just picked this up in a bargain bin. Surprised it was there actually as I thought this was a relatively new game. This was at an electronic's boutique shop, that generally cater to the twitch gamers, but I'd like the opinion of any of those out there about whether I was a fool and it was in the bargain bin for a reason, or whether I've just struck a gem.

I've looked on the Paradox site, and owned and played EU1 and EU2, so paradox titles aren't new to me. But it looks quite involved - ha! coming from an AE player - but maybe that is the point. When you're playing AE there is little time left for other games. So if you have time the can you recommend I put aside time, or not?

Thanks in advance

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 4:16:56 AM

YankeeAirRat

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I have played HOI and HOI2. If you think the AI "cheats" here in WiTP or WiTP-AE, then HOI will have you throwing full cups of coffee across room.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 5:00:35 AM

topeverest

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If you are an HOI fan, then 3 and its expansions will be enjoyable. Obviously a very different type of game. hard to compare to AE. Very good game system in its own right.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 5:01:22 AM

Mistmatz

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I'm not sure I'd call it a gem, but if I had to write down a list of the best computer games (say max 3 years old) it would be in the top 10.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 6:12:58 AM

Terminus

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HoI3 blows. Put it away.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 6:59:11 AM

CaptBeefheart

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I happen to think HOI3 is OK, but would say it's not perfect yet. I played another game of it recently after a long AE-inspired hiatus.

You need to play a smallish country or take a larger one with self-imposed rules to make it challenging. The naval aspects are also not great, which is disappointing for an old Pac War and its descendants player. That said, it's fun to build stuff, design your own divisions and do technology.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 7:10:49 AM

Dobey455

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The entire HOI trilogy can be enjoyable. I think of it as afun version of "RISK".
Not even remotely realistic. Conquering the world in a couple of years as a minor like Canada is a piece of pie.
In HOI2 world conquest as NZ was even fairly easy.
But a good beer and pretzels game.

< Message edited by Dobey -- 3/21/2011 7:11:17 AM >

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 7:13:46 AM

aprezto

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What sort of learning curve? Looks to be plenty in it upon loading it up, expecially for a beer and pretzals game..

< Message edited by aprezto -- 3/21/2011 7:14:49 AM >

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 8:11:41 AM

jonreb31

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From: Santa Cruz, California
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HOI3 really only satisfies me when you've got a fully loaded MP game going with a mix of mods and houserules thrown in-- obviously these are hard to set up unless you have some reliable buddies.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 9:56:00 AM

Dobey455

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aprezto

What sort of learning curve? Looks to be plenty in it upon loading it up, expecially for a beer and pretzals game..

Hmmm, well there are quite a few different features to play around with, thats for sure, but also you very quickly see where the game lacks depth in some basic features.

The Generic-ness of the units really killed immersion for me. The fact that all military units of the same "Level" are considered to be of identical quality. For example a "Level 3 tank" might be the called "Sherman" in the US and "Panther" and Germany, but the attack and defense values are identical.
Italian Infantry is of exactly the same quality as German infantry etc etc etc.
I actually haven't played the game for ages as I don't have the time these days so I might have missed some of the changes they made in version 3, but from memory the above is still true, except that they have added a "Brigade" system where by you can mix and match the composition of your forces to add a little variety.

Overall the "Strategy" is overwhelmingly simple. Attack a country weaker than you on Monday, crush it under boot, annex it and overthrow its government. Come Tuesday morning it's population is lining up to join your army and its industry is producing weapons for you making you that much stronger.
Rinse and repeat until you rule the world.

Basically much like "RISK" or even the early "Civilization".

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Post #: 10

RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 2:01:58 PM

morganbj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

HoI3 blows. Put it away.

So tell us Termie, what do you really think?

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 2:14:07 PM

Itdepends

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I enjoyed HOI1, HOI2 was good but I missed the tech tree complexity. HOI3 is mind numbingly large in size and wasn't as good (when I put it away) as HOI2.
Multiplayer in WITPAE is much more interesting- the FOW in particular and the need for sighting and logistics makes for higher level of nail biting tension.

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Post #: 12

RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 2:54:13 PM

pacificbetta

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I believe HOI series differs largely from the WitP games. Whichever is better is rather subjective imho. But there is one part of HOI that blows WitP away, that is the user interface. Yeah, I know the interface in WitP is old, but really, it takes some getting use to :P

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Post #: 13

RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 4:19:30 PM

EUBanana

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I do like the Paradox games, but HoI3 was a big disappointment to me, with it forcing you to use AI for much of your now vast and unmanageable armies. It was better when it was smaller. I just couldn't play it, it was too frustrating for me.

Victoria 2 wasnt as bad but still in the same vein compared to Victoria 1 (which was my fave Paradox game) - more of the AI doing things for you, usually incompetently and annoyingly, but with a much bigger game meaning that turning the AI off and doing it yourself, while possible, is not enjoyable.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 4:21:45 PM

Ossian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aprezto

Hi Guys;

Just picked this up in a bargain bin. Surprised it was there actually as I thought this was a relatively new game. This was at an electronic's boutique shop, that generally cater to the twitch gamers, but I'd like the opinion of any of those out there about whether I was a fool and it was in the bargain bin for a reason, or whether I've just struck a gem.

I've looked on the Paradox site, and owned and played EU1 and EU2, so paradox titles aren't new to me. But it looks quite involved - ha! coming from an AE player - but maybe that is the point. When you're playing AE there is little time left for other games. So if you have time the can you recommend I put aside time, or not?

Thanks in advance

The HOI games are fun enough but are universes apart from something like WiTP. They're empire building games and should be played as such. The fun in them comes from painting the world the colour of your country.

Despite what it might say on the box, the WW2 setting is really little more than flavour in HOI3 and I always got the feeling Paradox would rather you just forget about that part of it altogether. In previous games there were lots of events that pushed you towards a historical aproach but in HOI3 they kind of decided to throw that out the window, but then got scared and added a few of these events back in, which led to a slightly confused not-quite-feeform enough setting.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 4:29:33 PM

Journier

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even the HOI 2 and 3 interface can use improvement, WITP, man.... i feel like im playing a game from 1995.

The simple addition of making army groups and having some kind of hotkey selection for them would make the land combat so much easier in WITP. Same with multiple air groups.

WITP is detailed and has alot to it, but a better User Interface would make it actually not that hard of a game.

The almost need of using a 3rd party program to understand the industry needed/ used/ supply levels is one of the area's that is amusing.

I really enjoyed HOI 2, HOI 3 before expansion really was terrible, expansion made it much better, now i sorta enjoy HOI 3, and enjoy the complexities of naval warfare in WITP.
To call HOI 3 a beer and pretzels game isnt... really proper, they are both complex, however if in HOI 2/3 you had to use a 3rd party program to balance your economies income of resources/ oil/ plane parts, I think youd be going "oh wow yea HOI 3 is incredibly complex and deep".

Different games, much different UI that is modernized.

Both good games in their own aspect.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 5:55:19 PM

jeffk3510

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I have never played HOI series. I do like Paradox games however. I really like the EU series...I could play it for hours.

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Post #: 17

RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 6:58:04 PM

PresterJohn001

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Really liked HoI2, very dissapointed by HoI3. Naval/Amphib war was bad, not so good as i wanted to play Japan. If you're more inteerested in the Land War i think its better. Bargain Bins about right.

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Post #: 18

RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 7:18:20 PM

JocMeister

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HoI 3 is a descent enough game. Mods like DiDays make it alot more fun! Sadly as someone said the naval aspect of the game is horrible. I played through two or three campaigns without using the AI. Even with 300 divisions on map its still fairly manageble. As long as you remember that its not a simulation but a game you can have alot of fun with it!

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/21/2011 8:11:28 PM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

I have played HOI and HOI2. If you think the AI "cheats" here in WiTP or WiTP-AE, then HOI will have you throwing full cups of coffee across room.

Guess I would agree, I played HOI1 quite much (as it was I quite new concept and even playable with patch no. 6 or so) also played 2 a bit. Also Victoria - but that frustated me to much as of historical unrealities. I know you should not play Paradox games for accurary but more as "beer+brezels". Still I am not in the mood for this atm. Maybe after I finished this AE camp and a JAP game then I might take a look at Paradox again....

I liked the Italian fleet in HOI, when you took over the command of them as a German player to prevent their suicide - they never wanted to obey your orders and still did their suicide raids :) Also the Italians stationed their TORPEDO planes always somewhere near Moscow on the Russian front - makes senses :D That was fun HOI 1 yeaaahhhh. I also liked the nice invasion the Allied send on every 2-3 weeks in game time. But sometimes they really brought more numbers instead only 3 divs or so. They landed mostly at - Normandy ! So this was realistic :) But sometimes directly in Hamburg

And the British send their Spitfires over the whole Europe without landing anywhere... they were shot to pieces by Flak and the LW on their way and arrived back at 10% or so. But finally you just don�t bother anymore with them as they did no real damage, you just watch it in amazement

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 3/21/2011 9:02:07 PM >

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/22/2011 7:27:27 AM

CaptBeefheart

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The HOI series are OK in their own right. To me it's not AE vs. HOI; it's more "what mood am I in?" Also, I don't think HOI3 is unmanageable. You can set stops so whenever a fleet, air or ground unit gets attacked you can stop the real time action and go to that battle. Ditto for new technologies. I usually run it quite fast with the game stopping for the crucial activities.

What with HOI mods and the like you can set yourself progressively more difficult challenges and get a fair amount of playing time out of the series. I wouldn't call it bier und brezeln. That said, the naval aspect still sucks and the Pacific is generally quite true to it's name.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/22/2011 10:09:55 AM

stuman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PresterJohn

Really liked HoI2, very dissapointed by HoI3. Naval/Amphib war was bad, not so good as i wanted to play Japan. If you're more inteerested in the Land War i think its better. Bargain Bins about right.

+1

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/22/2011 6:35:38 PM

sanch

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I found HOI3 interesting enough - not overly realistic, but a good beer and pretzels type of game. It's fun going out and conquering the world as, for example, Hungary.

But, it's not a game I would always go back to. Some of their other titles, particularly the EU3 series, is a keeper and I do go back and play frequently.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/22/2011 9:34:57 PM

jeffk3510

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Sanch- EU3 and on is one of my favorite all time games. Love it!

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/23/2011 7:06:10 AM

sanch

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FWIW - I was a beta tester for EU2 (not 3). My main claim to fame is the loan system - I belly-ached so much about how it worked in EU1 they actually fixed it for EU2.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/23/2011 10:03:16 AM

LoBaron

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The two Paradox titles I played longest where HOI1 and EU2.
I lost interest in the HOI series as they stopped making different stats for individual devices.

EU series though is still one of the best ever.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/23/2011 2:12:00 PM

jeffk3510

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanch

FWIW - I was a beta tester for EU2 (not 3). My main claim to fame is the loan system - I belly-ached so much about how it worked in EU1 they actually fixed it for EU2.

I wish you could use it even more so in 3. I have used it a few times to start wars with a country I KNEW wouldn't be able to pay me back... but no one is ever willing to take one....Love the game!

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/23/2011 5:58:52 PM

Klahn

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As one of the many who liked HOI 2 but didn't enjoy 3, they have also released a heavily expanded version of HOI 2. It's called "Arsenal of Democracy" and, like WITPAE, was primarily a gamer-driven rebuild. I've not played it at all so I can't vouch for the quality of it. Some may wish to look into it though.

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RE: OT - Hearts of Iron 3 - 3/23/2011 7:13:31 PM

aphrochine

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Well, I played HOI2 MP for years and our group just didnt make the migration to HOI3. The big part was the game was in such poor shape on release. Granted, an expansion and a few major patches, it's much better all the way around...but still games released in poor condition leave a bad taste that's hard for many players to get over.

Our group currently runs HOI3 games on various nights. Anyone interested in trying, register at www.warplanorange.net (the name actually comes from our original timezone affiliation before we went global and the love of the pacific war of the founder, and has nothing to do with the WPO mod here).

Anyways, from someone who's been playing HOI3 since long before it's release, the game has gotten gradually better and better with each iteration. It's easily twice the game it was on release.   No real details on feature additions coming from the new expansion other than Battle Scenarios (which have a lot of good potential).

The ground combat is the game's best feature. If you love ground fighting, you will grow to appreciate that aspect. The game can be overwhelming, especially if you are used to the HOI2 Corps/Army scale. I would not recommend using the tactical AI for anything other than rear area fighting.   I would have to say, that all ground units are NOT the same. Doctrines make a big difference and a Level 3 Armor with many more levels of Blitz doctrine is far superior than not. Also, leaders have a very deep and significant impact. How you get a superior army for say Germany, is that you have a massive headstart on researching tech, doctrine and the best generals in spades.

However, where the game begins to lose it is the continuing balance issues in industry, MP and resources. The Naval model is much improved. CV warfare is at least attritional in nature, but after that you have to let go of reality and just play the game mechanics set before you.   Air combat is also difficult to manage because of the teleporting air units and no meaningful way of tracking air combat results, or watching them as they happen.    All these issues have been acknowledged to a fair degree by pdox designers, the question is if they can or will do anything about it.

One of the biggest gripes I have is about 2 design decisions:

1) The unabstraction of supply and logistics. In HOI2 the ability to supply your units was about a working convoy route and TC (transport capacity), which indicated how well you supplied your units. One of the biggest grips was that it was completely impossible to cut off supply to a landing. The best you could do was put 10 BB off the coast and sing 30 convoys a day. But if you're Japan, and the US lands and has 4000 convoys to burn...that 2 million man army that just landed south of Tokyo in '1940 isnt going to go hungry anytime soon. The new HOI3 model made supply at least needing a port, and choked it based on port size...however the inability to completely blockade supply is still there.   Add to that the logistics model has all kinds of oddities along with the complete inability to indicate where supply goes or how it's stockpiled it's a sin for any real armchair general to cope with.

2) Weather is the biggest machine resource hog and has virtually no affect in the game. They might as well remove it. In most MP games, the soviets get face rolled in '41 because the winter comes and nothing really happens. Unless the Soviet players are all-stars and are able to get out waves of BT's and T-34's before then...the soviet infantry west of the Urals is gonna die.

Other than all that, it's a great game...