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RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea!

 
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RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 1/11/2011 2:03:41 AM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Actually for me, the land in the Crimea tends to become secondary in '41. What I'm most intersted in is destroying the units that tend to accumulate in the area. When these plus other forces that the AI dispatches in the area, attack in winter, they can become a real pain in the neck (almost lirerally) since they threaten the supply lines to Stalino etc.. Sevastapol is a target, but not the main one plus the bulk of the units used (Romanian 3 Army except fot the mountain corps) are basically useless in '41 at the front (too slow to reach the frontline and too weak to really effect the outcome).


What I meant was: if you don't commit to taking it, you have to hold 3 hexes to prevent the Soviets from getting out. If you do commit to taking the Crimea and fail to take it, your frontline will be much longer than 3 hexes and will thus require more troops. Good troops, so not primarily the Romanians, who with their combined strength would still have serious difficulties with invading my backyard.



Yea i made a house rule with my opponent that he has to take the crimea. Since we both agreed now strat air after you told us its issues comrade. So we figured it was a fair compromise that he has to come after it and take it. I've got all the hexes leading in upto level 4. And i've got a line of hexes halfway down upto level 3. So my guys should have some good fallback positions i have about 20 divisions in there. Hopefully i can get them to retreat out before they all surrender though.

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Post #: 61
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 1/11/2011 2:37:39 AM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Actually for me, the land in the Crimea tends to become secondary in '41. What I'm most intersted in is destroying the units that tend to accumulate in the area. When these plus other forces that the AI dispatches in the area, attack in winter, they can become a real pain in the neck (almost lirerally) since they threaten the supply lines to Stalino etc.. Sevastapol is a target, but not the main one plus the bulk of the units used (Romanian 3 Army except fot the mountain corps) are basically useless in '41 at the front (too slow to reach the frontline and too weak to really effect the outcome).


What I meant was: if you don't commit to taking it, you have to hold 3 hexes to prevent the Soviets from getting out. If you do commit to taking the Crimea and fail to take it, your frontline will be much longer than 3 hexes and will thus require more troops. Good troops, so not primarily the Romanians, who with their combined strength would still have serious difficulties with invading my backyard.



Yea i made a house rule with my opponent that he has to take the crimea. Since we both agreed now strat air after you told us its issues comrade. So we figured it was a fair compromise that he has to come after it and take it. I've got all the hexes leading in upto level 4. And i've got a line of hexes halfway down upto level 3. So my guys should have some good fallback positions i have about 20 divisions in there. Hopefully i can get them to retreat out before they all surrender though.


It is not my game, but as a observer, I would point out that the Russian player can really take advantage of knowing the Axis player "must" take the Crimea. What sort of other parameters have been laid out here? How much force does the Axis player have to use? How long do they have to take it?

Not invading the Crimea should be an option for the Axis to exercise much like deciding to make a push for Leningrad should be made or not.

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Post #: 62
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 1/11/2011 3:25:30 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
I love most everyone on matrix games forums.



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Post #: 63
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 1/11/2011 1:08:10 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

Can't the Soviets just ship the units to port?


Sure, I was just talking about their offensive capabilities to land on Axis controlled territory when Sevastopol and the other ports on the Crimea are not taken.

quote:

Yea i made a house rule with my opponent that he has to take the crimea.


It's your choice of course, but as Klydon pointed out I'd say such a house rule has some issues. It's pretty easy to defend the approaches as the Soviets and the Axis forces moving into the Crimea are essentially advancing in the wrong direction. If there's any threat that should be neutralized, I'd say the Black Sea Fleet's a better candidate than what would pass for a Soviet attempt at strategic bombing.

quote:

Are attacks allowed across the Straits of Kerch? What are the "penalties?"


It's treated like a major river hexside, so generally the attacker's CV will be around 1/3 of what it would normally be.

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Post #: 64
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 1/11/2011 11:13:49 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon


quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Actually for me, the land in the Crimea tends to become secondary in '41. What I'm most intersted in is destroying the units that tend to accumulate in the area. When these plus other forces that the AI dispatches in the area, attack in winter, they can become a real pain in the neck (almost lirerally) since they threaten the supply lines to Stalino etc.. Sevastapol is a target, but not the main one plus the bulk of the units used (Romanian 3 Army except fot the mountain corps) are basically useless in '41 at the front (too slow to reach the frontline and too weak to really effect the outcome).


What I meant was: if you don't commit to taking it, you have to hold 3 hexes to prevent the Soviets from getting out. If you do commit to taking the Crimea and fail to take it, your frontline will be much longer than 3 hexes and will thus require more troops. Good troops, so not primarily the Romanians, who with their combined strength would still have serious difficulties with invading my backyard.



Yea i made a house rule with my opponent that he has to take the crimea. Since we both agreed now strat air after you told us its issues comrade. So we figured it was a fair compromise that he has to come after it and take it. I've got all the hexes leading in upto level 4. And i've got a line of hexes halfway down upto level 3. So my guys should have some good fallback positions i have about 20 divisions in there. Hopefully i can get them to retreat out before they all surrender though.


It is not my game, but as a observer, I would point out that the Russian player can really take advantage of knowing the Axis player "must" take the Crimea. What sort of other parameters have been laid out here? How much force does the Axis player have to use? How long do they have to take it?

Not invading the Crimea should be an option for the Axis to exercise much like deciding to make a push for Leningrad should be made or not.



Well we have a gentleman agreement that he will try to take it. We have no force requirements. I'm not trying to open a can of worms. But if strat air worked properly i'd compel him to take the crimea by constantly bombing polesti. Even if my losses are through the roof i'd imagine any axis player would not want to have to worry about it.
But then again i could be wrong. I doubt a single air raid will do 18% damage to the polesti oil fields once they have worked out the kinks.

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Post #: 65
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 1/11/2011 11:14:37 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Can't the Soviets just ship the units to port?


Sure, I was just talking about their offensive capabilities to land on Axis controlled territory when Sevastopol and the other ports on the Crimea are not taken.

quote:

Yea i made a house rule with my opponent that he has to take the crimea.


It's your choice of course, but as Klydon pointed out I'd say such a house rule has some issues. It's pretty easy to defend the approaches as the Soviets and the Axis forces moving into the Crimea are essentially advancing in the wrong direction. If there's any threat that should be neutralized, I'd say the Black Sea Fleet's a better candidate than what would pass for a Soviet attempt at strategic bombing.

quote:

Are attacks allowed across the Straits of Kerch? What are the "penalties?"


It's treated like a major river hexside, so generally the attacker's CV will be around 1/3 of what it would normally be.


That's a good point about the black sea fleet. :) Thanks comrade.

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Post #: 66
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/22/2011 6:20:38 PM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Yes, I realize I'm replying to a 2-month-old post, but I like the topic :)

I think many of you are overlooking the potential outcomes of by-passing the Crimea, namely that those German units could be used in other offensive moves elsewhere. Let me give you an example. In the old WIR I tried a completely ahistoric Axis plan by focusing the major northern thrusts at the expense of the South. Thus Army Group South, after pocketing the usual area south of Kiev, and then forging a bridgehead across the Dniepr, and then linking with a panzer thrust from AG Center and pocketing Kiev (all closely historical), I drove the panzers of AG South northeast to support AGC's drive to Moscow. Thus, I completely by-passed Karkov and the Crimea.
 
I thought that If I took Moscow & Lenningrad in '41 (which I did ), then I could take care of the Ukraine in '42 (which I did). I guess what I'm getting at is that the Axis can not attack equally strong EVERYWHERE and that to beat Russia it must concentrate on the biggest targets. Trade-offs must be made somewhere, and I think this is what Terminus was kind of getting at (?). Trading the Crimea for Moscow was a good trade-off for me in that WIR game. Not capturing Karkov/Ukraine/Crimea was a calculated gamble that paid off then.

(PS - I thought I saw an older German war plan that initally had only x2 major thrusts - not x3. One went north of Pripet/Minsk/Smolensk/Moscow, the other was south of Pripet/Kiev/Bryansk/Moscow. I'm not at home so I donot have the source . This is what I replicated).

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Post #: 67
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/22/2011 11:24:52 PM   
Altaris

 

Posts: 216
Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline 		Have any PBEM players actually made a good effort at the Crimea? I gave up on trying, simply due to lack of forces. I couldn't afford to send a whole army down south when I was just barely able to reach Kursk/Kharkov line (with Stalino being taken later in snow). I have no idea how any German PBEM player could afford to send the resources needed to take it.

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Post #: 68
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/22/2011 11:35:28 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		I took the Crimea in my PBEM.

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Post #: 69
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 12:48:56 AM   
bdtj1815

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 1/25/2006
Status: offline 		Why if a computer game is purchased at considerable cost is a "house rule" needed as mentioned many times in this thread? In my current pbem game, very graciously, my SU opponent is playing with a very restrictive "house rule" during "The Blizzard", are there any other recommended "house rules"

< Message edited by bdtj1815 -- 3/23/2011 12:49:28 AM >

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Post #: 70
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 2:10:11 AM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Most of the "house rules" in place now (specifically the winter rules) are what the community has come up with as a temporary fix while a newer version of the game is worked on. If you look at 1.04, there are a lot of changes to first winter. 

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Post #: 71
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 2:43:49 AM   
bdtj1815

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 1/25/2006
Status: offline 		Why should an expensive computer game need "house rules"?

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Post #: 72
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 2:48:54 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		The game does not need house rules.
It's the players that have a strong opinion on how things should turn out who needs house rules.

I, in particular don't care about house rules and play the game "as is".

< Message edited by jomni -- 3/23/2011 2:50:24 AM >

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Post #: 73
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 2:48:57 AM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815

Why should an expensive computer game need "house rules"?



You asked, I gave you an answer. At this point, I think your user name should include the name "troll" in it.

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Post #: 74
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 3:20:50 AM   
bdtj1815

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 1/25/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon


quote:

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815

Why should an expensive computer game need "house rules"?



You asked, I gave you an answer. At this point, I think your user name should include the name "troll" in it.

quote:

You asked, I gave you an answer. At this point, I think your user name should include the name "troll" in it.


Why if I dare question aspects of how this game works, or does not, do you think describing me as a "troll", whatever that is, helps forward your argument?

< Message edited by bdtj1815 -- 3/23/2011 3:22:43 AM >

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Post #: 75
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 4:43:46 AM   
cookie monster


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From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon


quote:

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815

Why should an expensive computer game need "house rules"?



You asked, I gave you an answer. At this point, I think your user name should include the name "troll" in it.

quote:

You asked, I gave you an answer. At this point, I think your user name should include the name "troll" in it.


Why if I dare question aspects of how this game works, or does not, do you think describing me as a "troll", whatever that is, helps forward your argument?


Even if WitE is an expensive computer game it's still not perfect. That's what 'house rules' are for.

You get called a troll because your criticism is not constructive. I sent you the link to what a troll is, so you cant claim innocence.

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Post #: 76
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 4:48:49 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
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Status: offline 		Cheap games have house rules too. Monopoly for example.

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RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 4:59:59 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
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From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		The house rules in Monopoly for my family was always that two hours after the game ended we had to start talking to one another again, no matter how mad we were.

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Post #: 78
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 5:20:12 AM   
bdtj1815

 

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Status: offline 		Just realised the last people who have responded to my posts have either not read them, or more likely not understood them, so my apologies.

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Post #: 79
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 6:07:45 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		You think it's easy to simulate history, to the point of no one complaining?  You demand too much.

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Post #: 80
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 6:21:17 AM   
bdtj1815

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 1/25/2006
Status: offline 		For £70. Why?

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Post #: 81
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 6:46:14 AM   
Wild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815

For £70. Why?


Are you really that naive?

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RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 6:58:44 AM   
jomni


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Status: offline 		Is this turning into one of those pricing rants?

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RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 8:09:37 AM   
76mm


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From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		I hate to change the topic, but on the subject of Crimea--it is really irritating, and unrealistic, that once the railine is cut east of Crimea, you cannot use the rail within the Crimea. This makes it much more difficult than it should be to move troops via Kerch.

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Post #: 84
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 8:58:39 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
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From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Maybe that's to simulate that the railcars and engines got stuck on the east side of the cut and there's none available in the west side?  Probably unrealistic to think that. 

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 3/23/2011 9:00:02 AM >

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Post #: 85
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 9:51:31 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Maybe that's to simulate that the railcars and engines got stuck on the east side of the cut and there's none available in the west side?  Probably unrealistic to think that. 


Yeah, not very likely that very single locomotive and piece of rolling stock would be stuck in the east. Moreover, the Russians could presumably figure out how to ship a couple of locomotives into Sevastopol, Kerch, or one of the other ports in the Crimea.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 3/23/2011 9:53:22 AM >

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Post #: 86
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 10:53:50 AM   
Aussiematto

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You know what "bwheatley", you can quit your highjacking of my thread. Start your own whine-athon somewhere else.


Amen.

Now, back to the point:

I don't think you can ignore the Crimea in early 1941, because otherwise you surrender the initiative down there to the Russians. The trick is to ensure that the Russian can't tell what your intentions are. I've now played two games where the Russian defences on the lower Dnepr were strong enough that I was worried about diverting infantry to crack it -- therefore I've gone around the back, via D and Z towns, and am going to lever those swampy defenders south of Nikolaev out of position. problem is, I've basically shown my opponents I won't get the Crimea.

I think Rostov AND a bridgehead over the Don to the south is strategically more important in the long run, because in 1942-43 you are going to need to attack down into the Caucasus if you are serious about pushing for an Axis victory. Against almost any decent human opponent, you will never get across at Kerch, so probably yes, Crimea is for screening (just be ready to dash for it if your opponent reads your move).

historical point: (game history). In the old War in Europe (cardboard game), it was generally agreed that the Germans should get into and clear the Crimea no problems. What then occured, at the start of the 1942 offensive, was a very gamey move to crack the attack on Kerch. As Axis, you found your three most powerful offensive units (I think from memory 3 SS pz or Pzg units) to get the highest possible attack value and crossed your fingers and rolled the dice. There was, I think, no chance of getting a successful result unless you used these units and even if you did, it was not guaranteed. I never bothered trying... SS Pz units attacking across a strait? I don't think so.

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Post #: 87
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 2:52:37 PM   
goranw

 

Posts: 1551
Joined: 10/23/2001
From: Uppsala,Sweden
Status: offline 		Hi!
Crimea was important to the Germans also from other points than military.
1918 statistics showed 60 000 German inhabitants in Crimea.
In 1918 2/3 of farming area was owned by Germans. The farmings were very developed.The German hospital in Simferopol was widespread famous .
Soviet statistics from 1926 showed 43 600 Germans. Gradually down to 14000- 1940 after long persecution.
In aug. 1941 all Germans were deported to mostly the Caucasus area.
(source- Krim Research Website)
GoranW

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Post #: 88
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 3:12:34 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		The Soviets actually did make some strategic bombing strikes using their obsolete four engine bombers. Kind of a Doolittle Tokyo raid thing. Just enough to get the German's attention in your face thing. Don't know if they did any from Crimea but up north they did.

Can you imagine flying one of those big lumbering things in the dark over the Baltic to bomb Konigsberg? Ouch.

This: On 11 August and 13 August 1941, Zveno-SPB successfully damaged the King Carol I Bridge over Danube in Romania.[10] Zveno operations ended in the fall of 1942 due to high vulnerability of the motherships. (they carried I-16 fighters. also could carry and drop recce tanks)

Sorry if this was already mentioned. I didn't care to go through all the moaning and crying and defensive replies about who was right and who was wrong and what was broken. It's a program. I'm sure a lot was broken on release. That's why there are patches. Gamers tend to do things programmers can't even imagine.

< Message edited by Panama -- 3/23/2011 3:30:48 PM >

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Post #: 89
RE: Crimea? We don't need no schtinkin' Crimea! - 3/23/2011 3:31:30 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

You think it's easy to simulate history, to the point of no one complaining?  You demand too much.


Can't possibly recreate history with a turn based game. Just can't be done.

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Post #: 90
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