Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I thought that for just some more blood there was already the "enhanced combat".

Well, Jose, the bounce rule predates the "enhanced combat" by a lot of years.
The bounce rule is an official optional rule that is in the rulebook since 2000 (RAW6), and the "enhanced combat" is just an Annual 2008's "house of rules" optional rule that came out last year.

The bounce rule was already "more fight / more blood" in its time, and the "enhanced combat" is for people that want again more "more fight / more blood".

There are a lot of people that complain that there are not enough looses in air to air combats, and that as a result of this there are too much air units on the map in the latter years of the game. The "enhanced combat" is for them.

My personal opinion is that Bounce combat is just fine, just enough "more fight / more blood" for my taste, and just enough unfairness added to air to air combat.

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Player 1 has advantage because whereas if Player 2 asks for a bouncing he gives inmediately another shot to Player 1, and he may get two or only one rounds in exchange, if it is Player 1 who asks for a bouncing after a player 2 "11" result, he does not suffer that penalty, both had their regular combat phase, and both have now the bouncing combat chance .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I thought that for just some more blood there was already the "enhanced combat".

Well, Jose, the bounce rule predates the "enhanced combat" by a lot of years.
The bounce rule is an official optional rule that is in the rulebook since 2000 (RAW6), and the "enhanced combat" is just an Annual 2008's "house of rules" optional rule that came out last year.

The bounce rule was already "more fight / more blood" in its time, and the "enhanced combat" is for people that want again more "more fight / more blood".

There are a lot of people that complain that there are not enough looses in air to air combats, and that as a result of this there are too much air units on the map in the latter years of the game. The "enhanced combat" is for them.

My personal opinion is that Bounce combat is just fine, just enough "more fight / more blood" for my taste, and just enough unfairness added to air to air combat.

Ok, that clears my question that I just edited in my last post about enhanced. Thank you.

Anyway, it still remains the "fairness" matter. Of course, you can reject the optional, and of course sometimes you are Player 1 and sometimes Player 2, but I still think that the rules should be made as perfect as possible, and I think the combat is not balanced because of this:

quote:

Player 1 has advantage because whereas if Player 2 asks for a bouncing he gives inmediately another shot to Player 1, and he may get two or only one rounds in exchange, if it is Player 1 who asks for a bouncing after a player 2 "11" result, he does not suffer that penalty, both had their regular combat phase, and both have now the bouncing combat chance .

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ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Yes, but my point is that both of the players (1 and 2) can get a 11 (poor superiority) but if it's Player 2 who gets an 11, then Player 1 gets more benefits (a regular shot + always a bounce shot against Player 2 regular shot + bounce shot), ...

... whereas if it's Player 1 who gets an 11 and Player 2 calls for a bouncing combat, then Player 1 still has two rounds but Player 2 may only have one if his (only) plane is shot down or aborted in the bouncing combat. That's what I think is unbalanced.

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ORIGINAL: ullern
I would give Player 2 that last dice roll, and that is what has happened every time my group has run into that situation.

But I might be playing it wrong because the rules are not perfectly clear. The general A2A combat rule says you get the second dice roll despite results Player 1 inflicts. But the FAQ says you recalculate the A2A combat values immediately after a bounce, and what exactly is your combat value with all your aircraft already shot down?

From my perspective it would just seem more logical that the regular dice roll is something that already happened, you just don't know the results yet, therefore the dice roll should not be modified. But we should hear the comments from the rules clarification group I think.

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ORIGINAL: composer99

I hope this addresses your questions:

(1) When an attacker (or defender) spends surprise points to pick a target, this does not change the sequence of target picking. So your order is a/a/a/d/a/d/ etc.

(2) The order does not reset for different types of damage. If you are scoring 3X 3D then the order is X(Att) X(Def) X(Att) D(Def) D(Att) D(Def) and so on for aborts.

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Ignore any shore bombardment factors (after any reduction and halving) that exceed the total (modified) combat factors of the attacking land units. For instance, if you bombard with 5 shore bombardment factors but units totaling 7 factors are attacking across a river, you would only count 3.5 of the bombarding factors.

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ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Composer, I tried to explain myself the best that I could without the chart in my hands. And i posted it this morning because some mornings I have small breaks at work, which are not so usual after it, so I had to take advantage although I didn't have the chart at that moment.

Of course, it is not into MWIF, since MWIF is using a certain version of RAW but after it there is the FiF that came with the Annual. However, I understand this is a thread on the rules of WIF, not only MWIF.

Anyway, the 3d10 charts that come with the Annual, plus all the rest of the explanation were only there to explain the context (that under the FiF 3d10 table -option 2- the naval bombarment could be made up to the total of attacking factors unmodified by terrain- but modified by supply, offensive chits, ...)  but the question itself is the same under RAW, FiF or whatever: Is a fort "terrain" or is it something else that modifies the factors? Like supply does, amphibious assault, city, factories ...

Because I was told a fort is "terrain" and I don't think so.

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ORIGINAL: Orm

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ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Composer, I tried to explain myself the best that I could without the chart in my hands. And i posted it this morning because some mornings I have small breaks at work, which are not so usual after it, so I had to take advantage although I didn't have the chart at that moment.

Of course, it is not into MWIF, since MWIF is using a certain version of RAW but after it there is the FiF that came with the Annual. However, I understand this is a thread on the rules of WIF, not only MWIF.

Anyway, the 3d10 charts that come with the Annual, plus all the rest of the explanation were only there to explain the context (that under the FiF 3d10 table -option 2- the naval bombarment could be made up to the total of attacking factors unmodified by terrain- but modified by supply, offensive chits, ...)  but the question itself is the same under RAW, FiF or whatever: Is a fort "terrain" or is it something else that modifies the factors? Like supply does, amphibious assault, city, factories ...

Because I was told a fort is "terrain" and I don't think so.

In the 3d10 charts notes it says (my bolding):
"Attacking modifiers provided by individual units are affected by terrain (rivers, forts, invasion, etc.) in the same manner as their combat factors (ex. halved across rivers)."

To me that shows that forts are considered terrain.

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If you play with the 3d10 option 2 (Advanced shore bombardment and ground support) the maximum support you can use are the total combat factors unmodified by terrain. But on the other hand the maximum support in a non city hex is half and in a city it is quarter of the attacking/defending strength. (Invading units are calculated differently)

So if I read the rules correctly the attacking support is not modified (halved) by the fort (terrain) but since the rule says the maximum support should be halved in Gibraltar (since it is a non city hex) the result is the same. The only difference is the defenders support and for invading units but then again an invading unit would not have attacked across the fort hexside anyway.

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9.3 Compulsory declarations
Germany must declare war on Poland in the first impulse of any game that starts in Sep/Oct 1939. No major power may make any other declaration of war in that impulse.

France and the Commonwealth must declare war on Germany on their first impulse after Germany has declared war on Poland. No major power may make any other declarations of war in that impulse.

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If both major powers declare war on the same major power in the same impulse, only roll once. In all other cases, roll once for each declaration of war. If it is an Axis declaration of war, any chits are placed in that Axis major power’s entry pool.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945

Entry Markers: The US has 3 entry markers. Place them in either, or both, entry pools.

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9.3 Compulsory declarations
Germany must declare war on Poland in the first impulse of any game that starts in Sep/Oct 1939. No major power may make any other declaration of war in that impulse.

France and the Commonwealth must declare war on Germany on their first impulse after Germany has declared war on Poland. No major power may make any other declarations of war in that impulse.

20. Germany declares war on Poland (12 Ge/It) (1 US entry chit added to the US entry pool (Ge/It) and an 20% chance a second US entry chit will be sdded to the US entry pool (Ge/It).

25. CW or France or both declare war on Germany (-9 Ge/It)

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If both major powers declare war on the same major power in the same impulse, only roll once. In all other cases, roll once for each declaration of war. If it is an Axis declaration of war, any chits are placed in that Axis major power’s entry pool.

I would like to verify that the chits for 9.3 Compulsory declarations are added/removed to/from the inital entry markers.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)

There are 5 places in the sequence of play where naval units can move:
A. Naval movement phase.
A.1 From a port to a sea area.
A.2 From a sea area to a port.
A.3 Within a sea area, to a lower section box.
B. Return to base phases, from a sea area to a port.
C. Forced rebase due to the control of a port changing sides (e.g., overrun , conquest), from a port to a port.
D. Forced or voluntary return to base from a naval combat, from a sea area to a port.
E. Return to base by French naval units at sea during the formation of Vichy France, from a sea area to a port.

• Only A uses naval activities, and even then only when the major power owning the naval units took a Combined action.
• Only A.1 and A.3 permit a naval unit to end its move in a sea area. All the others must end in a port.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit at sea at the end of a naval move.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)

There are 5 places in the sequence of play where naval units can move:
A. Naval movement phase.
A.1 From a port to a sea area.
A.2 From a sea area to a port.
A.3 Within a sea area, to a lower section box.
B. Return to base phases, from a sea area to a port.
C. Forced rebase due to the control of a port changing sides (e.g., overrun , conquest), from a port to a port.
D. Forced or voluntary return to base from a naval combat, from a sea area to a port.
E. Return to base by French naval units at sea during the formation of Vichy France, from a sea area to a port.

• Only A uses naval activities, and even then only when the major power owning the naval units took a Combined action.
• Only A.1 and A.3 permit a naval unit to end its move in a sea area. All the others must end in a port.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1 and A.3 permit loading a unit at sea at the end of a naval move.

Wrong.
Loading a unit at sea at the end of a naval move is allowed for a naval move within a sea area, to a lower section box.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)

There are 5 places in the sequence of play where naval units can move:
A. Naval movement phase.
A.1 From a port to a sea area.
A.2 From a sea area to a port.
A.3 Within a sea area, to a lower section box.
B. Return to base phases, from a sea area to a port.
C. Forced rebase due to the control of a port changing sides (e.g., overrun , conquest), from a port to a port.
D. Forced or voluntary return to base from a naval combat, from a sea area to a port.
E. Return to base by French naval units at sea during the formation of Vichy France, from a sea area to a port.

• Only A uses naval activities, and even then only when the major power owning the naval units took a Combined action.
• Only A.1 and A.3 permit a naval unit to end its move in a sea area. All the others must end in a port.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit at sea at the end of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.
• Only A.1 permits dropping off naval units in a sea area (using Ctrl-Left-Click). However, this can only be done if there are sufficient naval activities available.
• A.1, A.2, B, C, and D all permit dropping off naval units in a port (using Ctrl-Left-Click). However, during A.1 this can only be done if there are sufficient naval activities available.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)

There are 5 places in the sequence of play where naval units can move:
A. Naval movement phase.
A.1 From a port to a sea area.
A.2 From a sea area to a port.
A.3 Within a sea area, to a lower section box.
B. Return to base phases, from a sea area to a port.
C. Forced rebase due to the control of a port changing sides (e.g., overrun , conquest), from a port to a port.
D. Forced or voluntary return to base from a naval combat, from a sea area to a port.
E. Return to base by French naval units at sea during the formation of Vichy France, from a sea area to a port.

• Only A uses naval activities, and even then only when the major power owning the naval units took a Combined action.
• Only A.1 and A.3 permit a naval unit to end its move in a sea area. All the others must end in a port.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit at sea at the end of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.
• Only A.1 permits dropping off naval units in a sea area (using Ctrl-Left-Click). However, this can only be done if there are sufficient naval activities available.
• A.1, A.2, B, C, and D all permit dropping off naval units in a port (using Ctrl-Left-Click). However, during A.1 this can only be done if there are sufficient naval activities available.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the caveat I have bolded, would not the restriction on sufficient naval activities also apply to component A.2 (e.g. during a naval move, a task force returning to Port A drops some ships off in Port B along the way)?

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
If an interception becomes possible future movement by the units cannot be cancelled.
Resolving interceptions of naval movement has the following logic branches:
1. Interception not attempted
1.1 All units continue moving
1.2 All units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available.
2. Interception attempted
2.1 Interception failed
2.1.1 All units continue moving.
2.1.2 All units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
2.1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available.
2.2 Interception succeeded
2.2.1 All units stop in the sea area.
2.2.2 All units “fight through”.
2.2.2.1 All units destroyed in naval combat
2.2.2.2 Combat resolved to quiescence and some moving naval units survive.
2.2.2.2.1 All surviving units continue moving.
2.2.2.1.2 All surviving units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
2.2.2.1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.

Not sure if this is clear from the way it's written but in A.1 the cargo unit must be present at the start of the naval movement phase, it can't be transported to a port where naval units there are awaiting their A.1. Even if these naval units are starting in the same port that the cargo is now in, if the cargo arrives after the start of the naval movement phase they can only pick it up via A.2.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2.2.2.2 Combat resolved to quiescence and some moving naval units survive.
2.2.2.2.1 All surviving units continue moving.
2.2.2.1.2 All surviving units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
2.2.2.1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.

Not sure if this is clear from the way it's written but in A.1 the cargo unit must be present at the start of the naval movement phase, it can't be transported to a port where naval units there are awaiting their A.1. Even if these naval units are starting in the same port that the cargo is now in, if the cargo arrives after the start of the naval movement phase they can only pick it up via A.2.

Well, isn't the rule that the transport spends an extra movement point to pick up a cargo that didn't start the impulse in the port?

For me, that is simpler to understand than the 'rationale' about moving through the port to pick up the cargo.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Important point:

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2.2.2.2 Combat resolved to quiescence and some moving naval units survive.
2.2.2.2.1 All surviving units continue moving.
2.2.2.1.2 All surviving units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
2.2.2.1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available

When units continue moving had they "counted up" to a higher sea box than the zero box, they are not required to count back down (like in returning to base) before they can go to an adjacent sea zone.

EXAMPLE: Some range 6, move 6 CAs leave Gibraltar and are intercepted in the West Med. They decide to fight through but choose the 3-box to do so. They have moved 1 range and 4 movement points. After the interception combat is resolved to quiescence, some continue moving. Whether they go to the East Med or the Italian Coast, they enter the zero box of those zones with 2 range and 5 movement points expended.