Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01

I don't think forced marching is in any way crucial to the existing game, but it was kind of a cool option and arguable realistic option in the original cardboard and paper version of WiTE, and was curious why it didn't make it into this new vision of the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan
As pointed out before yes you can temporarily motorize your infantry but it costs you. They are two completely different games. As I enjoyed that SPI games extensively in my 20's I expect to enjoy this game extensively in my 50's. lol :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01

In terms of enhancing a player’s operational maneuver options -- at least relative to how the forced march function was modeled within Grigsby’s original War in the East -- the limited ability to motorize an infantry division or possibly two in a given turn is not on the same scale as an all encompassing infantry forced march capability.

quote:

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan

Actually it was 1/6 chance it got reduced to Kangruppe as I played that game extensively.

As pointed out before yes you can temporarily motorize your infantry but it costs you. They are two completely different games. As I enjoyed that SPI games extensively in my 20's I expect to enjoy this game extensively in my 50's. lol :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan
As pointed out before yes you can temporarily motorize your infantry but it costs you. They are two completely different games. As I enjoyed that SPI games extensively in my 20's I expect to enjoy this game extensively in my 50's. lol :-)

LOL! Same here!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan
As pointed out before yes you can temporarily motorize your infantry but it costs you. They are two completely different games. As I enjoyed that SPI games extensively in my 20's I expect to enjoy this game extensively in my 50's. lol :-)

LOL! Same here!

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan
As pointed out before yes you can temporarily motorize your infantry but it costs you. They are two completely different games. As I enjoyed that SPI games extensively in my 20's I expect to enjoy this game extensively in my 50's. lol :-)

LOL! Same here!

+1

A lot of us old fogeys around it seems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KGrob

I like the idea of permitting infantry units to "force march" from one location to another. Marching is a big part of moving ground forces and marching fast is highly desired in some situations. A forced march is simply another option for ground movement as is moving infantry by truck, or rail, or by some other means.

As the O/P suggests, there should be a penalty however, perhaps higher attrition/loss of equipment or something similar.

I don't see the absence or presesnce of a forced march feature being a huge issue although it would be a nice addition IMO (few of the many features of this game are "huge issues" by themselves...but the totality of the features makes for an enjoyable game).

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01

quote:

ORIGINAL: KGrob

I like the idea of permitting infantry units to "force march" from one location to another. Marching is a big part of moving ground forces and marching fast is highly desired in some situations. A forced march is simply another option for ground movement as is moving infantry by truck, or rail, or by some other means.

As the O/P suggests, there should be a penalty however, perhaps higher attrition/loss of equipment or something similar.

I don't see the absence or presesnce of a forced march feature being a huge issue although it would be a nice addition IMO (few of the many features of this game are "huge issues" by themselves...but the totality of the features makes for an enjoyable game).

You might find this snippet of interest. I scanned from one of David Glantz's works -- "The Initial Period of the War on the Eastern Front, 22 June -- August 1941". It's actually part of the Seminar Proceedings for the 4th Art of War Symposium and included in a paper written for the Symposium by Kenneth Macksey entitled: "The Smolensk Operation, 7 July - 7 August 1941". I highlighted the passage of interest in grey -- although there some additional context material that is of interest and included in the snippet.

http://img851.imageshack.us/f/germaninfantrymarchingr.jpg/

30-miles a day is about 48.3 kilometers/day. Close to 5-hexes a day in game terms. Assuming you maintained this rate for 5 days of the week, that would put an infantry divisions movement rate at about 24-hexes\turn. If this pace were maintained for 6-days of the weekly turn, it equates to an Infantry units movement rate being about 29-hexes\turn (etc.)

In-game movement rates for Axis Infantry Divisions early in the 1941 campaign are typically about 10 to 15 -- occasionally you see high morale units and Jaeger and Mountain divisions sporting a movement rate of 15 to 16. But these are not hexes\turn as I have indicated above. Moreover, an infantry division’s movement rate is halved when marching through enemy controlled or impending control hexes. In-game German infantry divisions in the crucial maneuver part of the 1941 campaign are really kind of hamstrung in terms of the amount of territory they can cover in a given turn -- at least when compared with a historical march rate of 48.3 kilometers/day. When moving through enemy controlled hexes and impending control a German Infantry unit is only covering about 50km/WEEK to 75Km/WEEK vs. the ~50Km/DAY cited in the Kenneth Macksey Paper.

Doubtless this is part of the reason we see German players complaining that that can't form proper pockets in game. The Axis mechanized units end up doing almost all of the work associated with pocket formation as well as trying to keep a pocket closed because Axis infantry is typically too far in the rear to provide additional oomph to pocket formation, maintaining pocket closure, and pocket destruction. At least this has been my game observations in head-to-head when the battle moves beyond the Polish-Russian frontier and into the hinterland.

Having said all this, and having done a bit of marching in the Army as well as a fair bit of hiking, I think it pretty safe to say that 48-kilometers a day is a lot of ground to cover on foot. Therefore I reckon the 48km/day has to be reflective of a short term forced march rate of movement. But I'd argue that being able to cover these sorts of distances in-game on a short term basis would put a rather different spin on a players in game capability and how they go about planning their big pushes.

quote:

US Army FM 21-18 (ARMY FIELD MANUAL 21-18), FOOT MARCHES

4-20. FORCED MARCHES

A normal foot march day is 8 hours, for a distance of 32 km at a rate of 4 kph. The maximum distances recommended for forced marches are: 56 km in 24 hours; 96 km in 48 hours; or 128 km in 72 hours. A forced march usually exceeds this distance by increasing the hours marched rather than by increasing the rate of march. However, sometimes the rate of march must be increased to adjust to the situation.
a. Although forced marches may impair the fighting effectiveness of a unit, urgent conditions on the battlefield could require them. Rest periods should be scheduled to avoid marching at the hottest time of day and to ensure the arrival of the unit in combat-ready condition. At this time, commanders should consider increasing the rate of march when soldiers are most rested.
b. Time for a forced march of 52 km (4 km less than the maximum recommended distance) should be scheduled as follows, assuming the march began at first light:

quote:

River boats, transports, and railroad trains were comparative luxuries to the average Yankee or Rebel soldier. Most of the time, he reached his objective on foot. The speed of marching infantry was controlled by the nature of the ground it crossed. On hard-topped Pennsylvania highways, troops could make 30 miles per day. Traveling under his own power, the infantry soldier was expected to average 16 to 20 miles per day under normal conditions, and be ready for battle when he got to his destination.

In crucial periods, troops hit the roads day after day with no protracted rest. During the Shenandoah Valley Campaign in 1862, Stonewall Jackson's "foot cavalry" marched the length of the valley five times in three months. In November, 1863, Sherman's men made 400 miles on foot and went into action the day after reaching their goal. Completely at the mercy of weather, Southern roads were often in miserable condition. Spring rains made rivers overflow their banks, flooding the already muddy highways.