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Thanks for the Memories - 3/28/2011 12:06:26 AM

Peetz

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/25/2011
From: Alberta
Status: offline

Thanks for the memories

As the title says... Thanks. I can't express the appreciation I feel to all of you who have kept this addictive sim going through the years.

My Father, who was an early adopter to the PC era, bought me Harpoon as a gift around 1991, I think?... on 5.25" diskettes I found it incredibly addictive and spent hours during each session trying to configure DOS to release as much free memory as possible to be able to play the larger scenarios without locking up. At least it was a bit easier with the introduction of DOS 5.0 - where we didn't have to use EDLIN anymore to edit those autoexec.bat and config.sys files!

I swear I remember buying a few "add-on" battlesets to the original game... though I cannot see anything in the Harpoon history that mentions them selling those separately. Didn't matter to me anyway - because as soon as I saw that the Signature Edition Challenger Pack was available, which had everything "Harpoon" all in one box - I bought it. Not only did it have all 4 battlesets, it included the Scenario Editor and the updated version 1.31! Further updates that came by mail brought me up to 1.57a in around 1995.

I bought Harpoon 97 when it came out and had to return it to the store and order the 3.5 floppy disk version. I didn't have a CDROM drive in my computer. Seems strange now - but that was a luxury I couldn't afford at the time. I never went back to pick that game up, so I had never experienced the Windows version of Harpoon.

When I recently saw that Harpoon Ultimate was available, it was like a trip down memory lane. For me - who never played the "other" side of Harpoon (H2, H3, ANW), or even a Windows version - the newest version of HUCE is perfect.

This is the kind of timeless game that I keep going back to. I keep an older PC loaded and ready solely to run Harpoon. Of course, it's much faster than the 286 I had back in 1991 - and I am running DOS 7 on it (a "community" upgraded version of DOS 6.22), so it runs those old DOS versions of Harpoon perfectly, although you still have to keep an eye out for that memory ceiling.

So, even though I have put many thousands of hours into this game - it has all been in the DOS world of Harpoon until now. After getting Ultimate and playing CE, it took me a short time to get used to it. I was SO used to using the keyboard for everything!

Thanks, guys. This is perfect.

I've been reading through a few threads here and have a couple of comments...

Someone was mentioning something about how the original game used to jettison your loadout if you got attacked. Yup. Been there. Luckily that automatic jettison was fixed up - but they did keep the manual jettison option available for awhile - it was ALT-J, and it worked at least up to 1.57a. There were times it was handy, as jettisoning your load would free up some fuel if you were having trouble getting back to base. I notice it doesn't work anymore in CE, so at some point that has been deleted...

The other thing I have noticed in some comments is the volume of people who seem to let the AI do their attacking for them. I learned very early on that the only way to be successful in any scenario is to micromanage your assets. It can be a bit hairy at times when there is so much going on - but it's the only way to consistently be successful. I know I can beat any Air-to-Air foe because I can draw him close enough to fire, (or prompt him to fire by firing a single missile at him) then turn 180 on afterburners and eventually waste him out of missiles. If you can keep your assets from being killed, you can always go back Winchester and come back to fight again. I also know that it's nearly impossible to score a hit on an opponent who is on afterburner - so I don't waste the ammo. And Mr Grumble? He doesn't like you changing from High to VLow altitude - even though you take some chance of a low-level crash.

I know there is probably a "Tips" section somewhere here, but I haven't come across it yet.

So thanks again for all the work you have put into this game. I know that the major part has been sweat equity by volunteers - and I want you to know that I appreciate your efforts.

Peetz

Post #: 1

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/28/2011 1:02:50 PM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peetz
Thanks for the memories
As the title says... Thanks. I can't express the appreciation I feel to all of you who have kept this addictive sim going through the years. My Father, who was an early adopter to the PC era, bought me Harpoon as a gift around 1991, I think?... on 5.25" diskettes I found it incredibly addictive and spent hours during each session trying to configure DOS to release as much free memory as possible to be able to play the larger scenarios without locking up. At least it was a bit easier with the introduction of DOS 5.0 - where we didn't have to use EDLIN anymore to edit those autoexec.bat and config.sys files! I swear I remember buying a few "add-on" battlesets to the original game... though I cannot see anything in the Harpoon history that mentions them selling those separately. Didn't matter to me anyway - because as soon as I saw that the Signature Edition Challenger Pack was available, which had everything "Harpoon" all in one box - I bought it. Not only did it have all 4 battlesets, it included the Scenario Editor and the updated version 1.31! Further updates that came by mail brought me up to 1.57a in around 1995. I bought Harpoon 97 when it came out and had to return it to the store and order the 3.5 floppy disk version. I didn't have a CDROM drive in my computer. Seems strange now - but that was a luxury I couldn't afford at the time. I never went back to pick that game up, so I had never experienced the Windows version of Harpoon. When I recently saw that Harpoon Ultimate was available, it was like a trip down memory lane. For me - who never played the "other" side of Harpoon (H2, H3, ANW), or even a Windows version - the newest version of HUCE is perfect. This is the kind of timeless game that I keep going back to. I keep an older PC loaded and ready solely to run Harpoon. Of course, it's much faster than the 286 I had back in 1991 - and I am running DOS 7 on it (a "community" upgraded version of DOS 6.22), so it runs those old DOS versions of Harpoon perfectly, although you still have to keep an eye out for that memory ceiling. So, even though I have put many thousands of hours into this game - it has all been in the DOS world of Harpoon until now. After getting Ultimate and playing CE, it took me a short time to get used to it. I was SO used to using the keyboard for everything! Thanks, guys. This is perfect.

Thank you for sharing all of that. Its not often we see someone come along who has made the jump directly from Harpoon in DOS to Harpoon Ultimate. We're very happy you're enjoying it.

quote:

I've been reading through a few threads here and have a couple of comments ... Someone was mentioning something about how the original game used to jettison your loadout if you got attacked. Yup. Been there. Luckily that automatic jettison was fixed up - but they did keep the manual jettison option available for awhile - it was ALT-J, and it worked at least up to 1.57a. There were times it was handy, as jettisoning your load would free up some fuel if you were having trouble getting back to base. I notice it doesn't work anymore in CE, so at some point that has been deleted...

The jettison mechanism also allowed an aircraft to return to its full maneuverability (and thereby regain its full ATA values) in order to try and evade missile attack. It was inactivated more or less because the AI wasn't able to exercise good judgment about when to use it. It remains a possibility that it could be reactivated some day.

quote:

The other thing I have noticed in some comments is the volume of people who seem to let the AI do their attacking for them. I learned very early on that the only way to be successful in any scenario is to micromanage your assets. It can be a bit hairy at times when there is so much going on - but it's the only way to consistently be successful.

Well put.

quote:

I know I can beat any Air-to-Air foe because I can draw him close enough to fire, (or prompt him to fire by firing a single missile at him) then turn 180 on afterburners and eventually waste him out of missiles. If you can keep your assets from being killed, you can always go back Winchester and come back to fight again.

This was modified somewhat to prevent the AI from shooting at maximum range. He'll now to try and get you within the 'no escape' zone.

quote:

I also know that it's nearly impossible to score a hit on an opponent who is on afterburner - so I don't waste the ammo. And Mr Grumble? He doesn't like you changing from High to VLow altitude - even though you take some chance of a low-level crash.

I expect you will find that changing your speed and altitude is much less likely to result in a successful evasion in today's HCE.

quote:

I know there is probably a "Tips" section somewhere here, but I haven't come across it yet.

You'll probably find more tips and tactics content at HarpGamer.

quote:

So thanks again for all the work you have put into this game. I know that the major part has been sweat equity by volunteers - and I want you to know that I appreciate your efforts.
Peetz

Welcome back to Harpoon. And thanks for your support!

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Peetz)

Post #: 2

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/28/2011 5:48:21 PM

Peetz

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/25/2011
From: Alberta
Status: offline

Thanks for the comments, Brad.

Yup - I'm sure there are plenty of little "tricks" that I used in the DOS versions that are not applicable anymore. I haven't played enough to figure out everything that is different. I have noticed that subs are much, much more of a threat than previously... so much harder to get an exact contact on. I guess that's the way it should be, though.

And the addition of the "zero" time is a boon to someone who plays like I do.

I'll browse through the harpgamer site to see if I can pick up any new tips.

Unlike many (I suppose) around here - I am not as concerned about the "total realism" aspect when I am playing. Sure, I want it to be a reasonably accurate modeling, but it's a game to me - so I play to win. And I want to use every asset, tip, or trick and exploit any dumb AI move that I can. War is hell.

I think the thing that makes this game so addictive is that there is just so much to it, and it takes a lot of time and attention to detail to play through a scenario successfully.

Best.

Peetz

(in reply to CV32)

Post #: 3

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/28/2011 11:05:29 PM

Warhorse64

Posts: 154
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline

I quite like the new, more dangerous subs. I like to play scenarios with US CVNs, and in older versions of the game, the only way a properly equipped and handled US CVBG was ever vulnerable to subs was if the sub started the game in torpedo range of the carrier. Otherwise they were untouchable. It's much more challenging now.

(in reply to Peetz)

Post #: 4

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/29/2011 1:52:14 AM

Peetz

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/25/2011
From: Alberta
Status: offline

I agree - the new subs are much more challenging. I'll just have to adjust my gameplay and use their "new" stealth to my advantage.

I do have a question... Can one do a bearing only attack (B) with a ship-launched torpedo? (HUCE).

(in reply to Warhorse64)

Post #: 5

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/29/2011 2:54:27 AM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peetz
I agree - the new subs are much more challenging. I'll just have to adjust my gameplay and use their "new" stealth to my advantage. I do have a question... Can one do a bearing only attack (B) with a ship-launched torpedo? (HUCE).

Unfortunately, no, not using the 'B' key. You can do it in self-defense (i.e. in reply to a torpedo attack). We may overcome this issue in due course.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Peetz)

Post #: 6

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/29/2011 9:11:12 PM

rsitaly

Posts: 33
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peetz
I agree - the new subs are much more challenging. I'll just have to adjust my gameplay and use their "new" stealth to my advantage. I do have a question... Can one do a bearing only attack (B) with a ship-launched torpedo? (HUCE).

Unfortunately, no, not using the 'B' key. You can do it in self-defense (i.e. in reply to a torpedo attack). We may overcome this issue in due course.

Are you sure Brad? I have tried the Bearing-only attack using B key and it works.
I have tried an old scenario from an old battleset and in the tutorial for the new Western Pacific battleset using the last HUCE version and it works ... of course, as you well know, you must have a ship armed with capable missiles (like Harpoon).
The surface group in the tutorial has this type of weapons.
For "it works" I mean that the program ask you the activation point, allow you to select the weapons, and launches the missiles ... but, not having a lot of time, I launched them without a contact, just to see if it worked.

Roberto

PS. Ops ... my fault ... I was speaking about a missiles attack using ships missiles and not torpedo, so you are right Brad! BTW I play HC since several years and I remember only bearing attacks based on missiles and not torpedo ... my memory is fading!

< Message edited by rsitaly -- 3/29/2011 9:24:42 PM >

(in reply to CV32)

Post #: 7

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/29/2011 10:04:02 PM

Peetz

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/25/2011
From: Alberta
Status: offline

Yes, I knew that I could do a Bearing Only Attack with missiles, but I wondered if it were possible using torps. Guess not. I thought, being the newb to HUCE - that I may just be missing something.

While I'm on the newb theme, I have more questions as I continue to play and am noticing the differences between then and now...

1. Between the 2 forums I have browsed, Harpgamer and this one - is one more preferable to questions/comments about HUCE? I see many of the same nicks on each forum, but don't want to barge into an old boys club, either.

2. I do like this 0-time option, but I wonder if there are any restrictions? When you put it on 0-time, does the AI completely stop, while the player can still do a number of actions (like readying a loadout, or setting up an attack course/speed)? It sure makes it easier to keep on top of a busy scenario!

3. Turning delays. I have to get used to these, since they are new to me. What affects the delay? Is it based on the speed/agility of the aircraft? Or is the AI just trying to frustrate me by giving me a 47 second turn delay when my SEAD strike is trying to get the hell out of range of Mr Grumble? LOL. I'm sure there is something a little more specific than the game trying to get me...

4. Another new thing to me is having to stay in the area while your guided missiles fly to target. Do I have to stay within the missile's range? Or within surface radar contact? How far away can I be and still have the missiles guide to target?

5. Playing HUCE, USNI battleset #4, I noticed that when I loiter an aircraft, I often come back to it to find it has changed speed to cruise. The radio button is still "Loiter", but the speed changed to cruise. Doesn't really bother me, but is there a reason for that?

Thanks for anyone who can help. Although a lot has changed since DOS Harpoon - it's still the same great sim!

(in reply to rsitaly)

Post #: 8

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/29/2011 10:26:05 PM

Warhorse64

Posts: 154
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline

Both forums are open to all, neither would be an 'old boys club'. I think you will generally get answers a little bit faster on harpgamer, and the programmers seem to spend more time there, but the turnaround here is pretty decent too, and most of them spend time here. If I was forced to choose one forum over the other, I would probably go for harpgamer, but that's more a personal preference than anything else. You'll get plenty of help either way.

(in reply to Peetz)

Post #: 9

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/29/2011 10:36:56 PM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rsitaly
PS. Ops ... my fault ... I was speaking about a missiles attack using ships missiles and not torpedo, so you are right Brad! BTW I play HC since several years and I remember only bearing attacks based on missiles and not torpedo ... my memory is fading!

If you can get it to work for torpedoes, I will be very happy.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to rsitaly)

Post #: 10

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/29/2011 10:52:13 PM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peetz
1. Between the 2 forums I have browsed, Harpgamer and this one - is one more preferable to questions/comments about HUCE? I see many of the same nicks on each forum, but don't want to barge into an old boys club, either.

HarpGamer is the home of the development team for HCE, where all the beta work happens. We're happy if you are comfortable using either, really happy if you volunteer your time to help with beta work, and of course you're certainly welcome at both.

quote:

2. I do like this 0-time option, but I wonder if there are any restrictions? When you put it on 0-time, does the AI completely stop, while the player can still do a number of actions (like readying a loadout, or setting up an attack course/speed)? It sure makes it easier to keep on top of a busy scenario!

There won't be any action as such taking place under zero time compression, but you can do plenty of preparatory things (as you know and have mentioned). The AI does nothing but plot your virtual demise.

quote:

3. Turning delays. I have to get used to these, since they are new to me. What affects the delay? Is it based on the speed/agility of the aircraft? Or is the AI just trying to frustrate me by giving me a 47 second turn delay when my SEAD strike is trying to get the hell out of range of Mr Grumble? LOL. I'm sure there is something a little more specific than the game trying to get me...

I can't tell you the specifics offhand because this was something we implemented in an earlier version of Harpoon Classic, and my memory is terrible for those details. But generally, yes, its related to aircraft type, speed, agility.

quote:

4. Another new thing to me is having to stay in the area while your guided missiles fly to target. Do I have to stay within the missile's range? Or within surface radar contact? How far away can I be and still have the missiles guide to target?

What kind of missiles?

quote:

5. Playing HUCE, USNI battleset #4, I noticed that when I loiter an aircraft, I often come back to it to find it has changed speed to cruise. The radio button is still "Loiter", but the speed changed to cruise. Doesn't really bother me, but is there a reason for that?

A bit of a persistent bug, that one. I don't think it affects your fuel expenditure.

quote:

Thanks for anyone who can help. Although a lot has changed since DOS Harpoon - it's still the same great sim!

We think so too.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Peetz)

Post #: 11

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/30/2011 12:42:24 AM

Peetz

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/25/2011
From: Alberta
Status: offline

quote:

Another new thing to me is having to stay in the area while your guided missiles fly to target. Do I have to stay within the missile's range? Or within surface radar contact? How far away can I be and still have the missiles guide to target?

What kind of missiles?

Hmmm... Your answer tells me I need to do more research. If I remember, I was playing an old HC scenario just after I started with HUCE. Was making an attack on a base with AGM-130's from (I think) F-15 Strike Eagles. I turned and RTB at speed after firing, and saw a message that the missiles didn't hit because I was out of range. I just assumed that was another change I would get used to. Sorry I don't have all the details, I'm going from my memory - which is not the steel trap it used to be. Kinda rusted, in fact.

I can infer that there are some missiles that require you to guide them to target, and some that are fire-and-forget. Is there a definitive ordnance list somewhere that I can peruse?

quote:

Playing HUCE, USNI battleset #4, I noticed that when I loiter an aircraft, I often come back to it to find it has changed speed to cruise. The radio button is still "Loiter", but the speed changed to cruise. Doesn't really bother me, but is there a reason for that?

Good. Doesn't bother me at all. I just wondered if it was me...

Seems to me the response I've been having here has been really prompt and friendly, so I may just hang around.

Thanks.

(in reply to CV32)

Post #: 12

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/30/2011 11:55:17 AM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peetz
Hmmm... Your answer tells me I need to do more research. If I remember, I was playing an old HC scenario just after I started with HUCE. Was making an attack on a base with AGM-130's from (I think) F-15 Strike Eagles. I turned and RTB at speed after firing, and saw a message that the missiles didn't hit because I was out of range. I just assumed that was another change I would get used to. Sorry I don't have all the details, I'm going from my memory - which is not the steel trap it used to be. Kinda rusted, in fact.

That's one of the command guided (man in the loop via datalink) weapons. The sim models the man in the loop control by requiring that the launch platform stay in the vicinity. Or, at least, this is how you would see it work in the old battlesets (non-EC2003, non-Westpac). In the newer battlesets with the editable database, I've removed this requirement because it kept the AI from using those kinds of weapons effectively. As for an ordnance list, you would probably have to crack open the database using the Platform Editor to get at the details.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Peetz)

Post #: 13

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 3/30/2011 11:55:44 AM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

double post

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to CV32)

Post #: 14

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 4/3/2011 9:59:38 PM

TonyE

Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peetz
3. Turning delays. I have to get used to these, since they are new to me. What affects the delay? Is it based on the speed/agility of the aircraft? Or is the AI just trying to frustrate me by giving me a 47 second turn delay when my SEAD strike is trying to get the hell out of range of Mr Grumble? LOL. I'm sure there is something a little more specific than the game trying to get me...

Welcome back to the game Peetz

The turn rate is based upon the worst agility (Defensive ATA database value from aircraft or its loadout) of the group's planes. The formula looks like "time = 3 * ((60/ATA_Group) * deltacourse/360.0)" so if your group's worst DATA was 20 and you wanted to make a 120 degree turn the time would be = 3 * ((60/20) * 120/360) = 3 * (3 * 0.333) = 3 seconds.

Take a E-3B from HCDB with the same turn and you have time = 3 * ((60/5) * 120/360) = 3 * (12 * 0.33) = 12 seconds

If the group has no DATA (database problem or other strangeness) it defaults to 2 in this case
time = 3 * ((60/2) * 120/360) = 3 * (30 * 0.333) = 30 seconds

Hehe, which makes me wonder if something is amiss in the battleset you are playing.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Peetz)

Post #: 15

RE: Thanks for the Memories - 4/3/2011 10:02:20 PM

TonyE

Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peetz
1. Between the 2 forums I have browsed, Harpgamer and this one - is one more preferable to questions/comments about HUCE? I see many of the same nicks on each forum, but don't want to barge into an old boys club, either.

Either works as others have said. I like to think harpgamer will persist even if support for the game at Matrix should go away someday but I'm no prognosticator in those regards. From that perspective I like to see discussion at HarpGamer.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Peetz)

Post #: 16

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Thanks for the Memories