Morale and experience ratings - Australian ground units

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Morale and experience ratings - Australian ground units

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Morale and experience ratings - Australian ground units - 9/20/2002 5:03:45 PM

angus

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/8/2002
From: Brussels
Status: offline

Perhaps this is a stupid question to ask, what with me being a Pommie whinger, but fools rush in and all that.

There's been a lot of discussion about pilot experience and morale, but the ground units appear to have been ignored (either that or I'm too dim to find the threads where they've been mentioned). Up until now, I had assumed that the Aussie AIF units (6th, 7th and most of 9th Divisions plus the 2/6 Armoured) were better than the CMF ones (everything else I think). But looking at the numbers that doesn't seem to be so.

3rd Division starts 85 experience/90 morale
4th Division starts 70 experience/80 morale
6th Division starts 80 experience/90 morale
7th Division starts 85 experience/90 morale
9th Division starts 70 experience/80 morale

9th Division, which was probably the most experienced AIF division - it fought against Rommel's first offensive in Cyrenaica, it stopped his assaults on Tobruk dead and stood the following siege for a couple of months and it later fought at El Alamein. 7th Division was the least experienced - it only fought in Greece (and parts of it in Crete maybe) - with 6th in between these two. Yet the 7th Division is rated best. Perhaps somebody who knows a bit more about the Australian Army can comment.

Maybe the 9th Division was a bit burned-out by the time it got back home or perhaps the AIF bits are being averaged down and the CMF 8th Brigade averaged up ? Even so, the 9th Division was surely more experienced than the militiamen of the 3rd and 4th Divisions, even if it might have had low morale. The 3rd Division especially is very highly rated. I know that it did it a lot of hard fighting in PNG during and after the period of UV, but it hadn't seen any action when UV starts. No US Army division has better experience, not even the 25th Division which I thought was pretty much a regular army pre-war formation.

Any thoughts ?

Cheers,

Angus

Post #: 1

- 9/20/2002 6:53:22 PM

Drongo

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline

Mate,

I reckon you should be an 'onry aussie for your outstanding efforts to remove the various stuff ups that Matrix have seen fit to visit upon our forces. You've just completed the trifecta of air, sea and land.
[QUOTE]3rd Division starts 85 experience/90 morale
4th Division starts 70 experience/80 morale
6th Division starts 80 experience/90 morale
7th Division starts 85 experience/90 morale
9th Division starts 70 experience/80 morale
[/QUOTE]

Down here, historians tend to avoid rating any one of the 6th, 7th or 9th as to which one was better (that used to be up to the diggers themselves in pubs on ANZAC day). The 9th didn't make it back home (from N/Africa) till March '43 and then spent many months retraining for jungle warfare (entered combat around Sept '43). I think it would be unfair if the lower ratings represented the Division prior to retraining as you cannot "retrain" (impr. exp.) in UV if a unit is exp. 70 without combat.

I would hazard a guess and think that someone mixed up 3rd and 9th's ratings. I never noticed it before (probably because 9th turns up so late in the game and by then you've got so many troops, you want to start de-mobbing 'em). Mind you, if you drop the 3rd's ratings, you risk pissing off the chocko's (Militia).

Cheers.

_____________________________

Have no fear,
drink more beer.

(in reply to angus)

Post #: 2

- 9/21/2002 8:52:52 AM

Fred98

Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline

The first 5 infantry divisions were created for and fought in WW1.

When WW2 came along the next division formed was numbered .....(drumroll)........the 6th division!

So I don't know how the 3rd and 4th divisions made it to WW2.

(in reply to angus)

Post #: 3

- 9/21/2002 10:44:42 AM

Airborne82nd

Posts: 67
Joined: 9/18/2002
From: Evans City, PA, USA
Status: offline

Eric Bergerud wrote a book called "Touched with Fire: Land Warfare in the South Pacific". A very good book and one reason I have a great fondness for the 7th Australian Infantry.

The US 25th division was only activated in Oct 41. Its first major engagement was Guadalcanal. Fortunately, it was lead by the very able J. Lawton Collins.

_____________________________

"Land Soft, Kill Quiet"

(in reply to angus)

Post #: 4

- 9/21/2002 2:28:55 PM

Drongo

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline

Posted by Joe98
[QUOTE]So I don't know how the 3rd and 4th divisions made it to WW2.[/QUOTE]

When WWI ended, the AIF title of the divisions was dropped and they became CMF formations and remained that way through to the end of WWII.

_____________________________

Have no fear,
drink more beer.

(in reply to angus)

Post #: 5

25th - 9/22/2002 1:58:16 AM

wpurdom

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline

Quote - "Eric Bergerud wrote a book called "Touched with Fire: Land Warfare in the South Pacific". A very good book and one reason I have a great fondness for the 7th Australian Infantry.

The US 25th division was only activated in Oct 41. Its first major engagement was Guadalcanal. Fortunately, it was lead by the very able J. Lawton Collins."

Yes, but as Bergerud discusses, the 25th was made up of 2 regiments of regulars from the "Hawaiian" Division (27th and 35th), and one well-brought-up regiment from the Washington National Guard (161st). (The late activation date due to twinning the "Hawaiian" square division into 2 triangular divisions) Bergerud evaluated it as much affected by the heavy regular composition, the only U.S. division in the theatre with jungle relevant training, and much superior as a division to the National Guard divisions: "The 25th Division was the Army at its best."
The National Guard divisions he rates as significantly inferior and not really ready for combat upon commitment (32nd, 41st, and 43d) and the Americal Division as in between. In the absence of countervailing evidence, I am inclined to accept Bergerud's detailed and plausible ranking of the experience of the different divisions found in Chapter 2 of the above book.
On the whole, UV does not seem to reflect the superiority of the AIF Divisions to U.S. Divisions other than the Marines and the 25th. As a non-Austrailian, I do not wish to enter the thicket of comparing Militia to AIF or the AIF divisions to each other.

(in reply to angus)

Post #: 6

- 9/23/2002 6:28:30 AM

angus

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/8/2002
From: Brussels
Status: offline

I'm glad wpurdom found some info to confirm that the Tropic Lightning Division was pretty much regular army. My recollection was that it was one of the (few) elite Army divisions in the Pacific As I recall, and I'm sticking my neck out here, the others included the Sixth, the Seventh (both regular) and the Seventy-Seventh Infantry Divisions and the Eleventh Airborne Division. Mind you, having seen The Sands of Iwo Jima more times than I can remember, there's no way I'd argue with the Marines being top of the list.

Anyway, I found a little booklet with OOBs for all the AIF and CMF divisions in WWII. Looking at it, I reckon somebody at GHQ was going out of their way to confuse the Japanese. The brigade-division correspondance in UV is a lot, lot simpler than the real thing. UV has 15th Brigade in the 3rd Division and nowhere else. In reality it served with the 3rd Division (to January 43, from May 43 to August and from September 44 onwards) and with the 5th Division (August 43 to January 44 and April to August 44) and with the 7th Division (January to April 44). 11th Brigade served in the 3rd, 4th and 5th Divisions, 14th Brigade in 2nd, 4th, 7th and 11th Divisions while 8th Brigade appears to have done best. It managed to serve in the 5 different divisions - the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th and 9th.

CMF divisions in New Guinea and Queensland.

Present and correct :-
3rd Division (New Guinea from January 43)
4th Division (reformed February 43, didn't leave Australia)

Gone walkabout :-
5th Division (New Guinea from January 43)
11th Division (New Guinea from February 43)

And perhaps the 1st Motor/3rd Armoured Division HQ should be there too. Something else to help discourage Japanese invasions of Australia.

I don't suppose it makes much difference in UV, where keeping units within range of the HQ is no big deal, but for WitP it could be a bit of a pain in the neck. It might be better if all the Australian brigades were subordinated to SWPAC (or to Australian HQ or whatever it is in WitP). Since the division bonus isn't based on having the "right" division HQ (in UV anyway), this would work just as well as anything else and be a lot more realistic.

I think all the brigades appear in UV, even if the "Northern Command" restricted units aren't right (29th Brigade served in New Guinea for sure, and others perhaps). The only mistake there might be is in having the 2/7th Division Cavalry Regiment as infantry. According to the book, it didn't become a Commando Regiment until March 1944 (and the 2/6th in January 1944). Poor old 9th Division gets stiffed again, it's 2/9th Cavalry got converted to Commandos in January 1943 !

Comments ?

Cheers,

Angus

(in reply to angus)

Post #: 7

- 9/23/2002 8:00:14 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Well Angus, you have certainty give a lot to research and also debate, but in the short term, here is a list of 2nd AIF units and CMF units as at the 7th of December 1941:-

2nd AIF Units and locations as of 7th December 1941

I Australian Corps - Palestine and Syria

Corps Troops Artillery
2/9th, 2/11th Field Regiments, RAA
2/1st Medium Regiment, RAA
2/1st Survey Regiment, RAA

Corps Troops Engineers
2/9th, 2/14th, 2/15th Field Companies, RAE
2/23rd Corps Field Park Company, RAE

1st Australian Anti-Aircraft Brigade
2/1st Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RAA
2/2nd Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RAA
2/3rd Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RAA
2/4th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RAA

Railway Construction and Maintenance Group
1st, 2nd, 3rd Railway Construction Companies, RAE
1st, 2nd, 3rd Railway Survey Companies, RAE

6th Australian Infantry Division - Syria
2/1st, 2/2nd, 2/3rd Field Regiments, RAA
2/1st Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
2/1st Australian Machine-Gun Battalion
2/1st Australian Pioneer Battalion
6th Australian Divisional Cavalry
2/1st, 2/2nd, 2/8th Field Companies, RAE
2/22nd Field Park Company, RAE

16th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/1st, 2/2nd, 2/3rd Australian Infantry Battalions

17th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/5th, 2/6th, 2/7th Australian Infantry Battalions

19th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/4th, 2/8th, 2/11th Australian Infantry Battalions

7th Australian Infantry Division - Syria
2/4th, 2/5th, 2/6th Field Regiments, RAA
2/2nd Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
2/3rd Australian Machine-Gun Battalion
2/2nd Australian Pioneer Battalion
7th Australian Divisional Cavalry
2/4th, 2/5th, 2/6th Field Companies, RAE
2/25th Field Park Company, RAE

18th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/9th, 2/10th, 2/12th Australian Infantry Battalions

21st Australian Infantry Brigade
2/14th, 2/16th, 2/27th Australian Infantry Battalions

25th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/25th, 2/31st, 2/33rd Australian Infantry Battalions

9th Australian Infantry Division - Palestine
2/7th, 2/8th, 2/12th Field Regiments, RAA
2/3rd Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
2/2nd Australian Machine-Gun Battalion
2/3rd Australian Pioneer Battalion
9th Australian Divisional Cavalry
2/3rd, 2/7th, 2/13th Field Companies, RAE
2/24th Field Park Company, RAE

20th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/13th, 2/15th, 2/17th Australian Infantry Battalions

24th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/28th, 2/32nd, 2/43rd Australian Infantry Battalions

26th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/23rd, 2/24th, 2/28th Australian Infantry Battalions

AIF Troops in Malaya

8th Australian Infantry Division
2/10th, 2/15th Field Regiments, RAA
2/4th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA (less 14th Battery)
2/4th Australian Machine-Gun Regiment
2/10th, 2/12th Field Companies, RAE
2/6th Field Park Company, RAE

22nd Australian Infantry Brigade
2/18th, 2/19th, 2/20th Australian Infantry Battalions

27th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/26th, 2/29th, 2/30th Australian Infantry Battalions

AIF Troops in Australia

23rd Australian Infantry Brigade - Darwin Area, Northern Territory
2/21st Australian Infantry Battalion
2/40th Australian Infantry Battalion
2/4th Australian Pioneer Battalion
2/4th Australian Machine-Gun Battalion
2/14th Field Regiment, RAA
14th, 18th Anti-Tank Batteries, RAA
2/11th Field Company, RAE

2nd Independent Company - Northern Territory

1st Australian Armoured Division - Victoria
2/11th Armoured Car Regiment - New South Wales
16th Field Regiment, RAA
108th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
2/3rd, 4th Field Squadron, RAE
2/1st Field Park Squadron, RAE

1st Australian Armoured Brigade - New South Wales
2/5th, 2/6th, 2/7th Armoured Regiments

2nd Australian Armoured Brigade - Victoria
2/8th, 2/9th, 2/11th Armoured Regiments

AIF Troops on Rabual and the Islands

2/22nd Australian Infantry Battalion - Rabual
17th Anti-Tank Battery, RAA - Rabual
1st Independent Company - Kavieng, New Ireland
Detachments at Vila, Tulagi, Buka Passage, Namatanai and Lorengau
3rd Independent Company - Embarked for New Caledonia on 8 December 1941

AIF Troops in the United Kingdom

Forestry Group
2/1st, 2/2nd, 2/3rd Forestry Companies, RAE

Australian Militia as at 7th of December 1941
Northern Command - HQ Brisbane, Queensland

2nd Reconnaissance Battalion
49th Infantry Battalion Details - Thursday Island
Torres Strait Infantry Company - Thursday Island
101st Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
55th Field Park Company, RAE

1st Motor Brigade
5th, 11th Motor Regiments

7th Infantry Brigade
9th, 15th, 25th, 47th, 61st Infantry Battalions
5th Field Regiment, RAA
7th Field Company, RAE

11th Infantry Brigade
26th, 31st, 42nd, 51st Infantry Battalions
11th Field Regiment, RAA
11th Field Company, RAE

Eastern Command - HQ Sydney, New South Wales

53rd Infantry Battalion - Located at Sydney preparing for embarkation to New Guinea

1st Cavalry Division
1st, 16th Machine-Gun Regiments
2nd Armoured Regiment
21st Field Regiment, RAA
102nd Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
1st Field Squadron, RAE

2nd Cavalry Brigade
12th, 24th Light Horse Regiments
15th Motor Regiment

4th Cavalry Brigade
3rd Armoured Regiment
6th Motor Regiment
7th Light Horse Regiment
14th Machine-Gun Regiment

1st Infantry Division
1st, 9th Field Regiments, RAA
103rd Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
1st, 9th Field Companies, RAE
51st Field Park Company, RAE

1st Infantry Brigade
2nd, 13th, 33rd, 41st Infantry Battalions

9th Infantry Brigade
1st, 17th, 18th, 45th Infantry Battalions
The Sydney University Regiment

2nd Infantry Division
21st Reconnaissance Battalion
7th, 14th, 18th Field Regiments, RAA
104th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
5th, 8th, 14th Field Companies, RAE
52nd Field Park Company, RAE

5th Infantry Brigade
20th, 34th, 54th, 56th Infantry Battalions

8th Infantry Brigade
4th, 30th, 35th Infantry Battalions

14th Infantry Brigade
3rd, 36th, 55th Infantry Battalions

Southern Command - HQ Melbourne, Victoria

39th Infantry Battalion - Located at Darly Camp preparing for New Guinea
22nd Motor Regiment - Brighton Camp, Tasmania - Attached 12th Infantry Brigade

2nd Cavalry Division - Victoria
4th Armoured Regiment
17th Machine-Gun Regiment
19th Machine-Gun Regiment - Left for Darwin, NT from Melbourne on 14/1/42.
13th Light Horse
22nd Field Regiment, RAA
105th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
2nd Field Squadron, RAE

3rd Motor Brigade
1st Armoured Car Regiment
4th Light Horse Regiment
20th Motor Regiment
26th Machine-Gun Regiment

3rd Infantry Division - Victoria
8th Reconnaissance Battalion
2nd, 4th, 8th Field Regiments, RAA
106th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
4th, 10th, 15th Field Companies, RAE
53rd Field Park Company, RAE

4th Infantry Brigade
22nd, 29th, 46th Infantry Battalions

10th Infantry Brigade
24th, 37th, 52nd Infantry Battalions

15th Infantry Brigade
57th/60th, 58th, 59th Infantry Battalions

4th Infantry Division - Victoria
10th, 15th Field Regiments, RAA
107th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
2nd, 6th Field Companies, RAE
54th Field Park Company, RAE

2nd Infantry Brigade
5th, 6th, 14th, 32nd Infantry Battalions

6th Infantry Brigade
7th, 8th, 23rd/21st, 38th Infantry Battalions

6th Cavalry Brigade - South Australia
3rd, 23rd Reconnaissance Companies
9th Motor Regiment
18th Machine-Gun Regiment

3rd Infantry Brigade - South Australia
(Later in December 1941, 27th and 43rd Battalions to Darwin)
10th, 27th, 43rd, 48th Infantry Battalions
13th Field Regiment, RAA
3rd Field Company, RAE

12th Infantry Brigade - Tasmania
12th/50th, 40th Infantry Battalions
110th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
6th Field Regiment, RAA
12th Field Company, RAE

Western Command - HQ Perth, Western Australia

10th Reconnaissance Battalion
25th Machine-Gun Regiment
44th Infantry Battalion
109th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
56th Field Park Company, RAE

13th Infantry Brigade
11th, 16th, 28th Infantry Battalions
3rd Field Regiment, RAA
13th Field Company, RAE

Military District #7 - Northern Territory

19th Infantry Battalion - Darwin
18th Field Battery, RAA - Darwin

Military District #8 - Rabual, New Hebrides and New Guinea

49th Infantry Battalion - Port Moresby, Papua
Papuan Infantry Battalion - Port Moresby, Papua
The New Guinea Volunteer Rifles - Rabual and New Guinea

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to angus)

Post #: 8

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Morale and experience ratings - Australian ground units

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