Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: jzardos
Is an attempt at a joke right or are you just trying to act like a fool and down play this issue?

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No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. If this is not a bug and AS designed, then I have to question why the designed allowed for this very unrealistic situation to happen.

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ORIGINAL: abulbulian

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos
Is an attempt at a joke right or are you just trying to act like a fool and down play this issue?

Well take a guess... it's neither. It's how the game works, and you can be as rude as you want about it, it won't change a thing, unless devs decide to change the basic design which at this point is very unlikely to happen. Posting stuff like the quote above will only make *you* look stupid. I personally don't care....

quote:

No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. If this is not a bug and AS designed, then I have to question why the designed allowed for this very unrealistic situation to happen.

In real world those tanks "collected and not utilized" (I guess unitized is a typo) were probably utilized, used, and spent through combat. If you don't use them, and you don't spend them through combat - guess what? They will pile up in the pool, becuase this game is TOE based. TOE is god, and TOE won't change just because you have X of Y in the pool. That's just how the game works, and it's pretty obvious....

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ORIGINAL: Speedy

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ORIGINAL: abulbulian

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.

Well TBH it is WAD. The game model, as everyone who has bought this game knows, is for historical production (as Trey pointed out) with fixed land upgrades. As such IMO what is being seen here is WAD. If x elements in x units utilise heavy tanks and they're full to capacity the excess will sit in the pool.

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

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ORIGINAL: Speedy

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ORIGINAL: abulbulian

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.

Well TBH it is WAD. The game model, as everyone who has bought this game knows, is for historical production (as Trey pointed out) with fixed land upgrades. As such IMO what is being seen here is WAD. If x elements in x units utilise heavy tanks and they're full to capacity the excess will sit in the pool.

Very true. Doesn't stop the whiners though.

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ORIGINAL: Lrfss

Clearly we should "if" we choose, be able to modify the TOE (both sides) and allocate as we see fit equipment from the pool....why not??? And if not the first at least the second part of the aforementioned

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ORIGINAL: marty_01

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ORIGINAL: Lrfss

Clearly we should "if" we choose, be able to modify the TOE (both sides) and allocate as we see fit equipment from the pool....why not??? And if not the first at least the second part of the aforementioned

I do have in-game control over unit TO&E. It's part of the game. Or at least it's part of my WiTE game. I just can't increase TO&E, but I do have some control over it.

In terms of historical examples, I vaguely recall that some German units -- on rather rare occasions and for limited periods of time -- did operate above official TO&E. But the historical context of the like, at least in the German army of WWII, tended to be relatively rare. For example I think the Hitler Jugend Division was above official TO&E prior to the invasion of Normandy by something like 120% or there abouts. The divisional glut of manpower and equipment didn’t last much after the 6th of June. I think the 2nd Panzer Div might have been slightly above TO&E prior to the invasion as well (maybe I am remembering that wrongly). Aside from that my memory cells are drawing a blank on historical examples of German units operating above official TO&E. There just wasn't enough stuff to go around.

It makes the in-game Tiger Tank equipment pool picture posted on the previous page seem that much "wierder" (probably not a real word but what the heck). It's why the context of the posted image would be nice. The context may be everything and knowing the context of the thing should in-theory make this thing repeatable. If it's not repeatable than what are we looking at? It just seems unlikely from my own head to head game experiences. Or maybe it's just me that goes through tanks in this game like nobodies business (it's sorta like tank wastage in the actual event).

Having said all that, I think if there was a bunch of extra equipment laying around, one would assume the Germans would have injected it into either creation of new combat units, or into fleshing out TO&E of existing units -- assuming trained manpower was available to operate the equipment glut (not an insignificant factor -- not that it takes a brain surgeon to drive a tank or be a loader. But fighting a tank and keeping it running is a bit more of a skill). I just hate the thought that potential combat power is laying about unused somewhere. If equipment gluts can occur naturally within the game -- and the gluts aren’t the result of a odd coding anomaly and also assuming that image we saw wasn’t from a very odd solitaire game (what’s the context), why not give the player the ability to use his TO&E slider to up unit strength to 110% or 120%? The unit TO&E adjuster is already in the game and is in player control. It's just that it only goes downward from 100%. Like I say it would be rather unusual for a German unit on the East Front to be operating above 100% TO&E, but a division operating above 100% is not completely without some historical precedent. It would be err uhh “realistic” -- there’s that word again. I dont think it particularly critical in the least to have this capability at my game playing finger tips. I'm just tossing out some random thoughts on the TO&E player controled slider thingy and the what-if aspect of having a glut of equipment.

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ORIGINAL: el hefe

No, those pools are specifically for the Eastern Front and Jim would have to give you the specifics on the production model. My point is that it is difficult to first of all figure out exactly how many units of x went to Russia. Anybody have the exact number of 105mm Howitzers or the number of Bf-109G6s that were sent to Russia as replacements during the entire war? We know about how many total were produced during the war and then we have to strip out the number of units were shipped with reinforcing units and thus leaving us with a rough number of units that were shipped as replacements. Then we say that x % were shipped East and then we average that number over the number of months of the conflict. This doesn't model any production that increases or decreases over time as it is just an average so it would be a lofty goal to make a production model that is dynamic enough to model the complexities of historical production. Not being defensive here but production is a tough one and compromises were made to make a game. There is so much information that is hard to obtain that you end up making educated guesses. Try figuring out the German manpower situation in 1941. Thats a fun on too.

Trey

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ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

Love the details in WitE with all the equipment. However, it sucks that one can't control it a bit more. Really would love to send these 105mm AA guns to the front to actually be used rather than watch them sit an collect dust in some warehouses? A real shame. Maybe in 1.05 we can spend some APs to adjust TOE to some extent and use all the pools of equipment better.





________________________________________________ Pool _____________ In Units




As an out-of-the-closet flaming 'axis fanboy' this is breaking my heart.
T-34's 'say hello to my little friend'. If you can point an 88mm at tanks, why not a 105mm. Just give it the right optics!
Help me Obi-Wan (Joel)

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ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I wish I had more control over creating units, keeping units versus withdrawl or better yet, having the ability to upgrade or not upgrade to next TOE change. I could have 1/2 divisions at 45 TOE and the other 1/2 at 42 TOE if I wanted them to be.

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ORIGINAL: Berkut

It seems odd to me that everyone assumes the correct "fix" to this problem involves using those Tigers in units in some fashion.

Considering that the developer just stated that the problem, such as it exists, lies in the Tigers being available in the pool when they really should not be available at all (since production is evenly spread out, even when the units that use them are not really in existence yet), why haven't those so terribly concern with "historical WW2 eastern front" argued that the code should simply be modified to remove the Tigers from the pool before they should be there to begin with?

Would that not solve the problem in the most historically accurate manner possible?

Another bonus to this solution is that it would not even have to be implemented, since you get almost THE EXACT SAME EFFECT by just not having the units available to place the Tigers in until their "historical WW2 eastern front" date is reached!

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ORIGINAL: Derfel

The basic problem is that there is only so many "shells" that can hold Tigers in the game.

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ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer

200 Tigers that don't exist, UNLESS you take heavy losses or need to rebuild a unit that got swallered whole by a big ol' bear and suddenly they're in the game despite not having "been built" yet.   I'll take 200 in the pool over 0 and be **** grateful.