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*RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think

 
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*RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 6:20:29 PM   
bean5671


Posts: 90
Joined: 5/12/2009
Status: offline
Hello all
I need to rant somewhere about this been banned from the steam forums and THQ forums 2k forums all because I asked a question

my question
I work from home in a very sensitive industry. My employer is a very large R@D company (I just gave you the name if u know the joke) I am working on a contract for a certain agency so my home network is very tightly controlled, the equiptment ie routers and hardware firewalls are not even mine I can not touch them even though they are in my house, I have one work machine and 4 other family pcs my household is myself and 3 boys oldest is 15
now I can not use steam not at all, I have asked and are not allowed to open the ports it needs so is there anyway for me to make the copies of CIV 5 and homefront that my oldest boy purchased from Gamestop work without steam?


this question got me the first ban from the steam forums so I created another account and asked why I was banned they said I was advocating piracy???

I then asked how is it piracy if I paid for the games (I now have them working without steam btw took my all of 2 hours I have access to some great tools)
they just banned me agian so I called THQ and 2k directly and ask them about this issue and they both said I was pirateing the games . WTF how can I be pirateing something I paid for
I love matrix games and have a ton of game from them so wanted the to see what you guys think of this
I have the receipts for the games they will not work on my network with the steamworks component so I just never installed the steamworks component really I removed it from both games before I create the new installer. I never even create a steam account so How am I breaking the steam EULA for a tool that has never been on my machine

AM I pirating or just making something I paid for work on my system


< Message edited by bean5671 -- 4/1/2011 6:21:21 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 6:37:55 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
Yes. You have bought games secured with Steam DRM. You couldn't use them without using Steam. By removing the Steam DRM using hacking tools, you pirated the games. The Steam DRM is there to protect the rights of developers and now the rights of developers can't be protected because your copies of the games were cracked.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 2
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 6:42:42 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
If I had been in your position I would have just tethered another connection through my cellphone to one extra laptop that is not connected to the workplace network.

But I dont think its good to go to steam forums asking how to make copies out of Civ5. They might understand it wrong.


_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 3
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 6:43:28 PM   
bean5671


Posts: 90
Joined: 5/12/2009
Status: offline
but the DRM will not allow the game to work so what I just eat the money i lost that is not acceptable to me, I can not return them so I have no recourse but to make them work
if i paid for it i have the right to use it correct?

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 4
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 6:45:56 PM   
bean5671


Posts: 90
Joined: 5/12/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

If I had been in your position I would have just tethered another connection through my cellphone to one extra laptop that is not connected to the workplace network.

But I dont think its good to go to steam forums asking how to make copies out of Civ5. They might understand it wrong.


I offered to send the mod that banned me Proof of purchase but he just banned me agian
Sorry if I buy it that gives me the right to play it, if it wont work and they refuse to refund my money, I will make it work. I am not sharing it I am just using it

I am not allowed any other pipes ie internet access into my home while i am working on this contract
they gave me a new phone and took my old blackberry I am telling you when I say tight I mean tight

< Message edited by bean5671 -- 4/1/2011 6:47:26 PM >

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 5
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 6:53:02 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

If I had been in your position I would have just tethered another connection through my cellphone to one extra laptop that is not connected to the workplace network.

But I dont think its good to go to steam forums asking how to make copies out of Civ5. They might understand it wrong.


I offered to send the mod that banned me Proof of purchase but he just banned me agian
Sorry if I buy it that gives me the right to play it, if it wont work and they refuse to refund my money, I will make it work. I am not sharing it I am just using it

Well its still nothing to get upset about. I mean you propably make more money in hour than what the game cost when you bought it from steam? If you cant get it legally but have payed money for it then just pirate it. Thats what Ive done.

In past ten years Ive had to games with faulty DVD. It would have taken weeks to return them (they were ordered from abroad) so I just pirated them because pirating takes less than hour.


_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 6
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 7:16:47 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

but the DRM will not allow the game to work so what I just eat the money i lost that is not acceptable to me, I can not return them so I have no recourse but to make them work
if i paid for it i have the right to use it correct?

You have right to use under condition that you connect to Steam and create a Steam account so that they could ban you if they feel like doing so or if you do something really bad like for example putting your units into shape of swastika or insulting the publisher on internet forum.
You have paid for limited right to use the game and Steam DRM enforces these limitations.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 7
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 8:07:16 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline
I think acceptance of Steam is in the EULA and printed on the box. At least I recall reading something like that on the EULA before I bought L4D. It went something like "you must have steam and allow steam to do it's thing to play this game" or something along those lines.

I would have to say, you should have investigated it a bit further before buying. I do believe you deserve a refund however, but that probably won't happen.

We've discussed this so many times on these forums, the perils of DRM schemes are often times more harmful to the customers and users than the pirates themselves.



_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 8
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 8:48:42 PM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
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From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
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You went on a companies forum and asked how to get around the copy protection. I can't think of a forum that would not ban you.
I would get with your company and find out how and if you can set up a second and completely independent second network within your house to run your personal internet through independent of your work internet.

If that does not work. Change jobs. That is a ****ty career that does not allow you to play your games ;)

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 9
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 9:37:28 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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Bean5671, et. al.,

We're not fans of DRM and I sympathize with your frustration. However, companies do not generally take kindly to people asking how to get around their DRM and policies on most such forums mean that anything construed as promoting or asking about removing copy protection or piracy results in an immediate ban. Bottom line is that they were
probably within their rights and policies to do what they did, though I agree it was not good customer service.

I'm not sure there's much they could have done to help given your setup and the requirements for those releases. I doubt anyone you spoke to had the ability or the right to circumvent the DRM to get it working for you.

Also, while it started as a rant, let's not let this get heated or we will end up having to lock it up. There have been a few threads in the past with pro and anti-DRM discussions that have ended up getting personal.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 4/1/2011 9:38:12 PM >


_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 10
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 9:39:28 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal


quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

If I had been in your position I would have just tethered another connection through my cellphone to one extra laptop that is not connected to the workplace network.

But I dont think its good to go to steam forums asking how to make copies out of Civ5. They might understand it wrong.


I offered to send the mod that banned me Proof of purchase but he just banned me agian
Sorry if I buy it that gives me the right to play it, if it wont work and they refuse to refund my money, I will make it work. I am not sharing it I am just using it

Well its still nothing to get upset about. I mean you propably make more money in hour than what the game cost when you bought it from steam? If you cant get it legally but have payed money for it then just pirate it. Thats what Ive done.

In past ten years Ive had to games with faulty DVD. It would have taken weeks to return them (they were ordered from abroad) so I just pirated them because pirating takes less than hour.



That's what I would do. Let me state first that I really really don't like piracy, it's like robbing IMHO. Anyways, I had this issue with a large amount of legally downloaded music I coulnd't play anymore because of DRM issues. Downloaded it via a paid service... then it says "can't play because of blahblahblah..." (that happened after a year or so). Wrote a few mails, never got the issue solved. Needless to say I d/l pirated copies.... worked without a problem.
Now that's just plain wrong... I have to d/l illegal copies to make it work.

OTOH, working in a business such as yours, hmm, there are other games worth playing too. But I understand your point of view perfectly.

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 11
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 10:20:57 PM   
bean5671


Posts: 90
Joined: 5/12/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Bean5671, et. al.,

We're not fans of DRM and I sympathize with your frustration. However, companies do not generally take kindly to people asking how to get around their DRM and policies on most such forums mean that anything construed as promoting or asking about removing copy protection or piracy results in an immediate ban. Bottom line is that they were
probably within their rights and policies to do what they did, though I agree it was not good customer service.

I'm not sure there's much they could have done to help given your setup and the requirements for those releases. I doubt anyone you spoke to had the ability or the right to circumvent the DRM to get it working for you.

Also, while it started as a rant, let's not let this get heated or we will end up having to lock it up. There have been a few threads in the past with pro and anti-DRM discussions that have ended up getting personal.

Regards,

- Erik


Thank you Erik

NO I do not want this to go that route

I did not purchase the games myself my kid did from Gamestop I tried to return them and was kind of laughed at that I even asked
I knew steam would not work my kid did not so I really did try I called THQ really nice guy though he said I was pirateing so I ask for my money back and he refused, I called 2k they told me that they cold not condone it but they will not do anything, I spoke to 2 people at Valve that just said tough you have to eat the cost
its not the money its the principal its how the game industry is defining piracy its a little to scrict for my taste
if I paid the dev for it I should have the right to play it period now what am I paying for

it use to be one license = one use of the software at one time
now it seems to be one license = one person only I will never agree to that

< Message edited by bean5671 -- 4/1/2011 10:21:09 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 12
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 10:37:38 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

You went on a companies forum and asked how to get around the copy protection. I can't think of a forum that would not ban you.
I would get with your company and find out how and if you can set up a second and completely independent second network within your house to run your personal internet through independent of your work internet.

If that does not work. Change jobs. That is a ****ty career that does not allow you to play your games ;)

I'd rather say that it's a ****ty publisher that makes playing already bought games such a problem. The whole online DRM stuff is so ridiculous. The only DRM that I tolerate nowadays is cd-keys as they are just written from a card inside of box or copy-pasted from the order confirmation email.
Even CD-checks are too much for me as I see no point in juggling CDs/DVDs (and risking damaging them) when all the data fits on HDD. CDs/DVDs belong to CD-cases and DVD-RW drive is for installing stuff/doing backups not for keeping useless disks there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

That's what I would do. Let me state first that I really really don't like piracy, it's like robbing IMHO.

Not really. "Piracy" is completely unlike robbery because nothing is removed from the inventory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

Anyways, I had this issue with a large amount of legally downloaded music I coulnd't play anymore because of DRM issues. Downloaded it via a paid service... then it says "can't play because of blahblahblah..." (that happened after a year or so). Wrote a few mails, never got the issue solved.

Now that sounds more like a robbery since money *and* music that you have bought were removed from your inventory. You had them but they took them away from you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

Anyways, I had this issue with a large amount of legally downloaded music I coulnd't play anymore because of DRM issues. Downloaded it via a paid service... then it says "can't play because of blahblahblah..." (that happened after a year or so). Wrote a few mails, never got the issue solved. Needless to say I d/l pirated copies.... worked without a problem.
Now that's just plain wrong... I have to d/l illegal copies to make it work.

Just don't use torrents and you'll be okay. All the law actions against unauthorised copies of music that I've heard of were against people who were *distributing* music through P2P networks.

Where I live, it isn't even illegal to download unauthorised copies of music.

Funny thing, almost all of 61 music albums (CDs, though I'm lately I started buying vinyl as they feel more luxurious) that I have bought during last 5 years were albums that I have previously downloaded from the internets. And in case of most of those that I haven't downloaded and listened through before buying, I have regretted buying them because they have turned out to be crap (basically, albums by previously good bands who suddenly started to decline).
On the other hand most of the rest is a pretty difficult music that requires listening to many times to appreciate, so I would never start to listen to them without digital downloads. It can be said that it's a lot of lost sales for the mainstream music industry that depends on "brand names" and music being easy to listen.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 13
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 10:48:27 PM   
bean5671


Posts: 90
Joined: 5/12/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Yes. You have bought games secured with Steam DRM. You couldn't use them without using Steam. By removing the Steam DRM using hacking tools, you pirated the games. The Steam DRM is there to protect the rights of developers and now the rights of developers can't be protected because your copies of the games were cracked.

you are right to a degree however

protect them from what? me using the software I paid for or am I guilty even though I did not post it on the net or share it in any way.
I am in the US so they would need to proof that I did give a hacked copy to someone else
I have not so i am not guilty of piratcy in my eyes

what about my rights as a consumer my system specs are higher than the mim I have access to the net just not open enough for steam to work but GOG works D2d impluse gamersgate and Matrix heck I downloaded WITP AE from matrix without any problems nobody can monitor inside my network even when this contract is over I will still not allow that.

the software does not work correctly I tried all avenues to make it work and was rebuffed I even asked 2k for a non steam version they said it requires steam for the program to work correctly it does but you can patch it out easly if you know how (I did)
it is not piracy if you pay for it and use it one license use at a time which is what i will do
I never asked for steamworks I purchased a game not a DD service


< Message edited by bean5671 -- 4/1/2011 10:49:48 PM >

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 14
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/1/2011 11:35:40 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

protect them from what? me using the software I paid for or am I guilty even though I did not post it on the net or share it in any way.

Lots of EULAs state that publisher can cancel your licence, often without even giving any reason. If you hack the copy, they can't do that any more. They can't decide that you can't use the game any more for whatever reason.
It simply limits the rights of the publisher.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 4/1/2011 11:36:16 PM >


_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 15
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 12:16:40 AM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
bean, you really have only one option.  Make your opinion of these DRM practices heard by never sending a single dollar to publishers using them.  It's a long term process, but better business practices will eventually win out if enough consumers refuse to be held hostage.  I've never personally had a problem with Steam, because I never have and never will purchase a game that forces me to use their system.  Thankfully, WitP:AE consumes every minute of my gaming life, anyway.  

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

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Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 16
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 3:24:00 AM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
To hell with pirates and hackers who have brought our hobby to this point.

But even more importantly, I say to hell with Steam and all similar DRM schemes. It won't be long before someone with the money, the time and the motivation, takes them to court for their outlandish EULA and they get creamed with a class action law suit.

Seems to me that what you did might not be legal, but I certainly regard it as principled. Thanks for fighting the good cause.

Check out the survey in my signature.

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The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
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Post #: 17
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 10:58:43 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

I work from home in a very sensitive industry. My employer is a very large R@D company (I just gave you the name if u know the joke) I am working on a contract for a certain agency so my home network is very tightly controlled, the equiptment ie routers and hardware firewalls are not even mine I can not touch them even though they are in my house, I have one work machine and 4 other family pcs my household is myself and 3 boys oldest is 15
now I can not use steam not at all, I have asked and are not allowed to open the ports it needs so is there anyway for me to make the copies of CIV 5 and homefront that my oldest boy purchased from Gamestop work without steam?


I think the failure here is on your side. By accepting such a rigid contract from your employer, you either have to deal with the consequences or work around it.

That said, you could install another router with open ports at your home, establish a second network via cell phone, take your laptop to the neighboor in order to verify the Civ 5 installation and play in offline mode afterwards. Or you simply google for a solution how to use Steam games without internet connection.

< Message edited by Lützow -- 4/2/2011 5:10:16 PM >


_____________________________


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Post #: 18
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 12:58:38 PM   
htuna


Posts: 591
Joined: 1/19/2009
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow


quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

I work from home in a very sensitive industry. My employer is a very large R@D company (I just gave you the name if u know the joke) I am working on a contract for a certain agency so my home network is very tightly controlled, the equiptment ie routers and hardware firewalls are not even mine I can not touch them even though they are in my house, I have one work machine and 4 other family pcs my household is myself and 3 boys oldest is 15
now I can not use steam not at all, I have asked and are not allowed to open the ports it needs so is there anyway for me to make the copies of CIV 5 and homefront that my oldest boy purchased from Gamestop work without steam?


I think the failure here is on your side. By accepting such a rigid contract from your employer, you either have to deal with the consequences or work around it.

That said, you could install another rooter with open ports at your home, establish a second network via cell phone, take your laptop to the neighboor in order to verify the Civ 5 installation and play in offline mode afterwards. Or you simply google for a solution how to use Steam games without internet connection.


I agree.. buy your 'own' internet connection for your personal machines.. Steam does not work at my work either.. and I doubt that I would attempt to try.. I also I can understand why your work would not allow it work as well. Not very tight security if you're allowing machines to connect to gaming portals. Matrix and Wargamer are blocked at my work as well.. You're lucky they're not blocking them!

If you don't want to buy your own connection. Lützow's suggestion is a good one.. even if it's a Desktop.. take it to a neighbor or friends house.. get all your games running and then go into offline mode and leave it that way..



(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 19
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 1:54:24 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

To hell with pirates and hackers who have brought our hobby to this point.

Hey, pirates can be useful. At least thanks to them I don't have to depend on 20+ years old disks bought on ebay functioning forever, I don't have to depend on having a specific drive to read an ancient disk type, I don't have to depend on one specific version of an ancient game working well and I don't have to deal with some ancient DRM to play them. Actually, I don't even have to have an ancient computer like C64 with its super-long loading times.

Anyway, to what point did they actually bring our hobby to?

To be honest, I think that modern DRM schemes aren't here to prevent piracy as done by the scene as scene pirates crack them anyway. They are used to prevent people from reselling games and from borrowing them to their friends/family.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow


quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

I work from home in a very sensitive industry. My employer is a very large R@D company (I just gave you the name if u know the joke) I am working on a contract for a certain agency so my home network is very tightly controlled, the equiptment ie routers and hardware firewalls are not even mine I can not touch them even though they are in my house, I have one work machine and 4 other family pcs my household is myself and 3 boys oldest is 15
now I can not use steam not at all, I have asked and are not allowed to open the ports it needs so is there anyway for me to make the copies of CIV 5 and homefront that my oldest boy purchased from Gamestop work without steam?


I think the failure here is on your side. By accepting such a rigid contract from your employer, you either have to deal with the consequences or work around it.

Single-player games required connection to the internet is not a fault of the contract.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 20
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 2:00:14 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline


quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671
I did not purchase the games myself my kid did from Gamestop I tried to return them and was kind of laughed at that I even asked
I knew steam would not work my kid did not so I really did try I called THQ really nice guy though he said I was pirateing so I ask for my money back and he refused, I called 2k they told me that they cold not condone it but they will not do anything, I spoke to 2 people at Valve that just said tough you have to eat the cost
its not the money its the principal its how the game industry is defining piracy its a little to scrict for my taste
if I paid the dev for it I should have the right to play it period now what am I paying for


I understand your point - I didn't realize these were purchased at a retail store rather than online. GameStop absolutely should have allowed you to return them. If the DRM doesn't work on your system, the game doesn't work on your system. That should be an automatic refund if they can't get it working for you. While yours is a rare case, it's still a disturbing story as far as how a customer can end up with no options despite having bought a game legally. I wish you luck, if I were you I'd try GameStop again and if the local store won't help you with a refund call their HQ.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 21
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 3:38:09 PM   
bean5671


Posts: 90
Joined: 5/12/2009
Status: offline
thanks for understanding guys

is ok I told my kid I would buy him 2 games that will work so I am buying him Battlefield A and Distant worlds today I would rather he play those instead of homefront or shooters anyway
plus I will play battlefield (more then he will)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 22
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 5:39:20 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
@Perturabo: I don't think a game going freeware after several years at the end of all support and interest in profiting from it by the publisher is quite the same thing as "piracy," but correct me if I'm in error on that point.

The point to which I understand "pirates" have brought the hobby/market, is that many publishers and distributors seem to feel both justified and motivated to implement increasingly restrictive EULAs and DRM schemes. I question if they would have done that if it were not for the perceived revenue losses from piracy.

I tend to think that Brad Wardell's (chief guy at Stardock If memory serves) view of this topic is valid. He seems to argue that, (a) the folks who ripoff the publishers/developers by making use of hacked illegal copies of the games would never buy the games in the first place, and therefore that the majority of the "lost revenue" are not actually lost at all; as such (b) developing and maintaining good relations with those segments of the market whom ARE likely prospective customers and using only mundane and less annoying means of securing the product (e.g., serial keys) is the best long-term strategy.

Obviously Valve has taken a rather different strategy with its promulgation of Steamworks, not only as a security scheme for their own games, but also as a DRM and distribution REQUIREMENT for various other publishers products. I agree with you that Valve's primary motivation with Steamworks is not so much about preventing piracy, though I suspect they present that argument to the publishers with whom they seek to partner.

The Steam client app in fact seems to me to be more of a means to corner the largest possible segment of various portions of the gamer market by bottlenecking users into one site, where they are exposed to ads, and incentivized with low unit prices, a very broad selection and easy accessibility. None of that strikes me as being intrusive per se, Gamersgate, Impulse, and the Matrix online store all strive to accomplish much the same. Naturally, you want to get customers "into your store," and increase the likelihood that they will buy products in your store.

The intolerable dimensions of Steamworks and the Steam client scheme to me seems to be:
(1) the fine print nature of Steam's exclusiveness on an increasing number of third party titles.

For example, you cannot play Civ5 without installing and using the Steam client app at least once.

Supposedly the "Offline Mode" is a way to be able to gain the ability to use the game by networkign to the Steam servers only once without ever needing to network with Steam's portal a second or third time. The fine print on the Amazon sales pages for the game says "one time network connection . . ."

However, I've encountered far too many guys complaining on forums about how it doesn't really work this way, else it is tricky to get it to work this way. It seems that it probably IS possible to get it to function without ever having to network a second or third time, but in reality, depending on user expertise, and system configurations, it might in fact be far less hassle to just let the damn thing phone home every time.

Obviously it serves Valve's interests that as many of the users they service with Steamworks as possible are "phoning home" as often as possible = bigger volume of active users on the Steam servers+more eyeballs looking at their ads = more volume of sales, and more leverage as the dominant force in the PC game retail scene.

By setting the defaults so that it can be annoying if not seemingly impossible to get the Offline Mode to work hassle free, they have managed to avoid the potentially illegal policy of making games like Civ5 "require constant internet connectivity" to play them, while at the same time leveraging the functionality to maximize their screen time exposure to the users. I find that to be cryptic, sneaky and just plain intolerable.

The users deserve to have a one-click, foolproof, functionally-perfect OFF button. The various issues with modding, patching, default file installation locations, and complications involved with having multiple copies of the game installed on the same machine (for example for purposes of playing multiple different mods or patches) are all related to this big issue of how the "Offline Mode" doesn't seem to be easy, consistent or simple.

2) The EULA. Steam's EULA is the most disempowering of the consumer that I've ever read. Basically, by agrering to install their software you are agreeing to never claim any grievance to them, and agreeing that they can revoke your license(s) at any time. The plurality of that word is crucial, because in the EULA Valve includes a clause that basically says "we gaurantee NOTHING."

I hear about some guys who have literally hundreds of "virtual" games on their machine. When Steam undergoes a collapse, buyout, or takeover, or simply gets sold, the terms of the EULA which its millions of users have agreed to mean that, all those hundreds of millions of licenses could easily go *poof* and from a prima facie standpoint, there would be no basis for anyone to gripe or grumble that the products/services they paid for were terminated by the patron.

I suspect that when the suits actually ensue, they will deal primarily with the fact that the advertising is not exactly clear cut on some of the games that are partnered to use Steamworks client app (e.g., Civ5 or Fallout New Vegas) else that the EULA itself is unfair to expect people to agree to.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 4/2/2011 6:02:58 PM >


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(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 23
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 5:48:48 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

thanks for understanding guys

is ok I told my kid I would buy him 2 games that will work so I am buying him Battlefield A and Distant worlds today I would rather he play those instead of homefront or shooters anyway
plus I will play battlefield (more then he will)



Distant Worlds is a great game. I bought DW plus the Return of the Shakturi game 2 weeks ago. It will be money well spent. I recommend the latest beta's there quite stable. I found two bugs and they were squashed inside of a week.

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Post #: 24
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/2/2011 5:49:55 PM   
bean5671


Posts: 90
Joined: 5/12/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

@Perturabo: I don't think a game going freeware after it all support and interest in profiting from it by the publisher is quite the same thing as "piracy," but correct me if I'm in error on that point.

The point I understand "pirates" have brought us to is that many publishers and distributors seem to feel both justified and motivated to implement increasingly restrictive EULAs and DRM schemes. I question if they would have done that if it were not for the perceived revenue losses from piracy.

I tend to think that Brad Wardell's view of this topic is valid. He seems to argue that, (a) the folks who ripoff the publishers/developers by making use of hacked illegal copies of the games would never buy the games in the first place, and therefore that the majority of the "lost revenue" is not actually lost at all; as such (b) developing and maintaining good relations with those segments of the market whom ARE likely prospective customers and using only mundane and less annoying means of securing the product (e.g., serial keys) is the best long-term strategy.

Obviously Valve has taken a rather different strategy with its promulgation of Steamworks, not only as a security scheme for their own games, but also as a DRM and distribution REQUIREMENT for various other publishers products. I agree with you that Valve's primary motivation with Steamworks is not so much about preventing piracy, though I suspect they present that argument to the publishers with whom they seek to partner. The Steam client app in fact seems to me to be more of a means to corner the largest possible segment of various portions of the gamer market by bottlenecking users into one site, where they are exposed to ads, and incentivized with low unit prices, a very broad selection and easy accessibility. None of that strikes me as being intrusive per se, Gamersgate, Impulse, and the Matrix online store all strive to accomplish much the same. Naturally, you want to get customers "into your store," and increase the likelihood that they will buy products in your store.

The intolerable dimensions of Steamworks and the Steam client scheme to me seem to be:
(1) the fine print nature of Steam's exclusiveness on an increasing number of titles. For example, you cannot play Civ5 without installing and using the Steam client app at least once. Supposedly this offline mode is a way to be able to gain the ability to use the game only once without ever needing to network with Steam's portal ever again. This is what the fine print on the Amazon sales pages for the game says "one time network connection . . ." However, I've encountered far too many guys complaining on forums about how it doesn't really work this way, else it is tricky to get it to work this way. It seems that it probably IS possible to get it to function without ever having to network a second or third time, but in reality, depending on user expertise, and system configurations, it might in fact be far less hassle to just let the damn thing phone home every time. Obviously it serves Valve's interests that as many of the games they service with Steamworks as possible are "phoning home" as often as possible. By setting the defaults so that it can be annoying if not seemingly impossible to get the Offline Mode to work hassle free, they have managed to avoid the potentially illegal policy of making games like Civ5 "requiring internet connectivity" to play them, while at the same time leveraging the functionality to maximize their screen time exposure to the users. I find that to be cryptic, sneaky and just plain intolerable. The users deserves to have a one-click, foolproof, functionally-perfect OFF button. The various issues with modding, patching, default file installation locations, and complications involved with having multiple copies of the game installed on the same machine (for example for purposes of playing multiple different mods or patches) are all related to this big issue of how the "Offline Mode" doesn't seem to be easy, consistent or simple.

2) The EULA. Steam's EULA is the most disempowering of the consumer that I've ever read. Basically, by agrering to install their software you are agreeing to never claim any grievance to them, and agreeing that they can revoke your license(s) at any time. The plurality of that word is crucial, because in the EULA Valve includes a clause that basically says "we gaurantee NOTHING."

I hear about some guys who have literally hundreds of virtual games on their machine. When Steam undergoes a collapse, buyout, or takeover, or simply gets sold, the terms of the EULA which its millions of users have agreed to mean that, all those hundreds of millions of licenses could easily go *poof* and from a prima facie standpoint, there would be no basis for anyone to gripe or grumble that the product/service the paid for was terminated.

I suspect that when the suits actually ensue, they will deal primarily with the fact that the advertising is not exactly clear cut on some of the games that are just partnered to use Steamworks client app (e.g., Civ5 or Fallout New Vegas) else that the EULA itself is unfair to expect people to agree to.



WOW you are much more articulate than me I will leave the writing to you and just focus on my code
GOOD POST I never read the steamworks EULA I will have to now

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 25
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/3/2011 12:11:24 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

@Perturabo: I don't think a game going freeware after several years at the end of all support and interest in profiting from it by the publisher is quite the same thing as "piracy," but correct me if I'm in error on that point.

The thing is that all the abandonware, C64 and Amiga sites are using the previous work of the cracker scene. And this work wouldn't happen without competition about who cracks the games first. Even G.O.G. is using scene cracks to remove DRM from games.

Basically, without piracy, old games would be dead and buried and limited to the copies circulating eBay which would probably have grossly inflated prices and would often require having old hardware/OS. There would be no abandonware sites which would lead to no G.O.G. and no old games on steam because no one would consider selling downloads 10+ year old games to be a good business.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Obviously Valve has taken a rather different strategy with its promulgation of Steamworks, not only as a security scheme for their own games, but also as a DRM and distribution REQUIREMENT for various other publishers products. I agree with you that Valve's primary motivation with Steamworks is not so much about preventing piracy, though I suspect they present that argument to the publishers with whom they seek to partner.

Too be honest, I suspect that Valve presents it as a measure against re-selling and borrowing. Take in account that publishers are ready to do stuff like free day-one DLCs to prevent re-selling, so they probably consider it as dangerous competition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

The Steam client app in fact seems to me to be more of a means to corner the largest possible segment of various portions of the gamer market by bottlenecking users into one site, where they are exposed to ads, and incentivized with low unit prices, a very broad selection and easy accessibility. None of that strikes me as being intrusive per se, Gamersgate, Impulse, and the Matrix online store all strive to accomplish much the same. Naturally, you want to get customers "into your store," and increase the likelihood that they will buy products in your store.

The intolerable dimensions of Steamworks and the Steam client scheme to me seems to be:
(1) the fine print nature of Steam's exclusiveness on an increasing number of third party titles.

For example, you cannot play Civ5 without installing and using the Steam client app at least once.

Supposedly the "Offline Mode" is a way to be able to gain the ability to use the game by networkign to the Steam servers only once without ever needing to network with Steam's portal a second or third time. The fine print on the Amazon sales pages for the game says "one time network connection . . ."

However, I've encountered far too many guys complaining on forums about how it doesn't really work this way, else it is tricky to get it to work this way. It seems that it probably IS possible to get it to function without ever having to network a second or third time, but in reality, depending on user expertise, and system configurations, it might in fact be far less hassle to just let the damn thing phone home every time.

Obviously it serves Valve's interests that as many of the users they service with Steamworks as possible are "phoning home" as often as possible = bigger volume of active users on the Steam servers+more eyeballs looking at their ads = more volume of sales, and more leverage as the dominant force in the PC game retail scene.

By setting the defaults so that it can be annoying if not seemingly impossible to get the Offline Mode to work hassle free, they have managed to avoid the potentially illegal policy of making games like Civ5 "require constant internet connectivity" to play them, while at the same time leveraging the functionality to maximize their screen time exposure to the users. I find that to be cryptic, sneaky and just plain intolerable.

The users deserve to have a one-click, foolproof, functionally-perfect OFF button. The various issues with modding, patching, default file installation locations, and complications involved with having multiple copies of the game installed on the same machine (for example for purposes of playing multiple different mods or patches) are all related to this big issue of how the "Offline Mode" doesn't seem to be easy, consistent or simple.

Very good analysis of the situation. It really may be a marketing plot.

_____________________________

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They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 26
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/3/2011 12:42:13 AM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
That point you are making about the abandonware games relying on the pirated copies is very interesting Perturabo. I cannot say that it seems to be an inaccurate analysis, and it raises a very interesting paradox.

Personally, I have great loathing for people who do not want those who worked to produce a title to get paid and are willing to rip them off. But then there is this long-term dimension too. I suppose that eventually MOST games become abandonware, though some probably have far more market longevity than others.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 27
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/3/2011 1:07:21 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Personally, I have great loathing for people who do not want those who worked to produce a title to get paid and are willing to rip them off.


There is a flip side of the coin. The majority of revenue goes to people who are not involved into development, but merely pay royalties to studios, don't hesitate to dumb down games for the sake of higher profits, and invent business models to eliminate intermediate trade and second hand market, while contiuously delivering less to the customer. Regarding these facts, tell me who is more detrimental for our hobby: pirates or the copyright industry?

< Message edited by Lützow -- 4/3/2011 1:40:53 AM >


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Post #: 28
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/3/2011 1:19:32 AM   
E

 

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

Hello all
I need to rant somewhere


I need to rant somewhere that I miss your avatar... J-57's hitting water. Okay. I'm better now. You? *grin*


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(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 29
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/3/2011 2:58:27 AM   
JosEPhII


Posts: 173
Joined: 1/17/2010
From: Cornfields of Western IL. USA
Status: offline

Very interesting debate and situation. And it emphasizes exactly why I, personally, will Never get a steam acct no matter how good the game is.

I will never play Civ V, even though I have hard copies of II, III, and IV, plus the expansions. They killed the series for me.

God Bless the indie developers and Long may they Live!

JosEPh


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Post #: 30
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