"...it's all about maintaining and maximizing panzer mobility for the Axis. Period."

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

"...it's all about maintaining and maximizing panzer mobility for the Axis. Period." - Mynok

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing panzer mobility for the Axis. Period." - Mynok

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

"...it's all about maintaining and maximizing panz... - 4/2/2011 4:03:53 AM

PeeDeeAitch

Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline

If there is a Golden Rule for the Germans in 1941 it is this. It doesn't matter if one uses their panzers like me (I would make Guderian weep), or simply as exploiters and surrounders, the key is that your mobile forces must be mobile. Panzers with 8 movement are expensive (and less useful) infantry, and tanks at the end of their logistical train are simply big and slow piles of near-useless.

The key is having movement. For the aspiring commander, knowing how to maximize air supply, how (and when) to rest tanks, how to use HQ Buildup all play a role in a successful drive. The best plans are just arrows on the map if your units don't have gas or are too tired to do anything. Yes, even near-supermen need to be taken care of.

An example of what I mean is below, my "first four turns" plan:

A common statement is that the Germans face hordes of Soviets in a carpet behind (say) the Upper Dnepr. What if I were to say to you that the Germans can be over the Dnepr in Panzer Group strength on turn 4? By over I mean well beyond exploiting a breakthrough. The problem of turn 6 with what seems like 200 infantry melt away. Mobility is the answer to this, breaking through possible defensive positions as soon as possible.

Against a forward and tough defense it is not always possible, but remember that turns one and two see the panzers in their glory. In the center, Groups 2 and 3 can be next to Minsk on turn one, then near (or in) Vitebsk on turn two. Use the mobility these turns have to keep your mass of armor together and concentrated for a strike toward the landbridge.

The end of turn two should see at least 10 or maybe 12 mobile divisions beyond Minsk and near Vitebsk. End the turn with the corps HQs near to the frontlines as you can. Turn three should see small gains, the tanks are tired, if possible move very little and then HQ buildup for at least 3 of the corps.

Why? This is too early for an HQ buildup, many will say. While true that this will not yield any great targets (other than Smolensk) right away, the point is strategic - to keep the initiative and open up the river crossings. By turn four the infantry will be catching up, likely there will be defenders on the west side of the Dnepr along the Berezina region that will be rimmed by the 4th Army, southwest of Velikie Luki the 9th Army will be able to hold the line...and the 2nd and 3rd Panzer Groups can have 46 or so movement, a turn of rest, and likely not much thickness of defense in front of them.

I have found that this works wonders - whether there are five corps here, four, or three (depending on your "south first" or "north first" inclinations). The key is concentrated mass, movement, and willingness to use your mobile forces. Smolensk will likely fall soon, the Soviet defenses will be off balance (and maybe a large number surrounded), and the Dnepr will no longer be a barrier (you will have crossed it near to Smolensk where it is just a wee thing.

Now I am not saying it is perfect, far from it. My whole point to this too-long post is that as the German player, one must always be looking out for ways to increase or maintain mobility, use this movement to seize and keep the strategic initiative, and exploit your strength for the best effects.

Below is a picture of me ready to move on turn 4 in my latest PBEM. Note, the panzers are tired, but the movement is high. They shouldn't need to fight much, and they will run a long way.

I expect experienced Soviet players would be licking their chops at my plan above, that is fine. My point was not the details, but more a glimpse into how one should try to follow Mynoks dictum.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by PeeDeeAitch -- 4/2/2011 4:04:18 AM >

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

Post #: 1

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/2/2011 4:24:50 AM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

Sounds like you should contribute some of this to the WITE Wiki: http://www.witewiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

It really lacks a lot of stuff on Axis tactics and strategy, and could use some more contributors.

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 2

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/2/2011 7:47:03 AM

Infanteer

Posts: 72
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline

I agree; although I wasn't as advanced (no airdrops/HQ buildup) I found that, if I balanced things right, Panzers would unhinge defences. The next best thing to bagging a big pocket is forcing the enemy to abandon good defensible terrain and important cities for absolutely nothing except one good armoured thrust through the mud and blood and into the green field beyond....

Panzer Angrief!

(in reply to delatbabel)

Post #: 3

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/2/2011 8:44:29 AM

Aussiematto

Posts: 344
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
Status: offline

Completely agree with this approach. Here's a technique that can be used around turns 4-6... when things start to slow down

'leapfrog' -- you push one panzer corps to the limit, including moving its HQ getting it right into the enemy lines, weakening the defence -- this corps is going to be less well supplied next turn since it is at the full extent of the supply lines. Another corps moves slowly up behind it, ensuring that its HQ doesn't move, but that the units are all within 5 hex range (this means, often, you need to get the HQ for this corps AHEAD of it the previous move...think ahead to go ahead). If you can afford the AP, attach a couple more divisions to this Corps...then do an HQ buildup.

The following turn your lead corps does the hard work of breaking through the lines, probably with infantry, and your other corps, happily in supply, busts through. Now, because your first corps is probably all still in range of HQ which hasn't moved, you do the same HQ build on THIS corp.

But the general point is: movement, maintenance of mobility etc.

You could also turn off ground support especially in the south where bombers are plentiful and transports are limited, to get bombers able to resupply.

_____________________________

I still remember cardboard!

(in reply to Infanteer)

Post #: 4

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/2/2011 10:20:14 AM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline

I completely agree! I have been on the receiving end of these tactics as the Soviets, and no matter how many units you have, if you are constantly unbalanced and never have the time to dig, the Soviet army will be a confused mass. The trick as the German is to keep the mobility without overextending and ending up tired without supply. It is a very fine balancing act.

(in reply to Aussiematto)

Post #: 5

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/2/2011 3:21:58 PM

PeeDeeAitch

Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline

It is not always about a pocket. A deep and defended (on the flanks) armored thrust should unhinge any defense. I managed this in my Stalino Dash in the AAR I have - a deep drive by two Panzer Groups, aimed at a opening up the front. From this the tanks could create a pocket the next turn (again, it is about planning ahead). By the time the tanks had gone, in the case of the SS units, 200 miles deep into Soviet territory, the mobility in the whole region was regained and the initiateve was mine again.

Opponents will not just give you these, you have to create the chances.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 6

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/2/2011 4:57:35 PM

Altaris

Posts: 216
Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline

Lot of good stuff here, I've been thinking largely along the same lines. I think it's more important to push east as far and fast as possible during summer 1941, and not worry too terribly much about pockets. With the changes of routed units not being able to use rails and factories taking much more rail to move now, the pockets will form themselves if you can thrash up the Soviet army and threaten key factory areas in a rapid eastward push. Forts are the blitzkrieg killer in this game, but if you can keep the Soviets from being able to dig in anywhere because they have no idea where you're going to stop and swing shut some uber-pocket, you can really throw them off. I think that PDA has figured that out, judging from his AAR, and I think his results speak to its effectiveness.

majeloz's ideas about leap-frogging are very good too. This gives a lot of options to exploit at the spearhead locations, behind enemy lines, or even at the front. Having that kind of flexibility is really helpful. I've employed that type of strategy with a great deal of success several times.

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 7

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/2/2011 5:09:10 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

Thanks for the reminder on hqs buildup. Learning and playing the "road to" scenarios, it is something I had completely overlooked. I just read up on it and realize I've been missing something important.

(in reply to Altaris)

Post #: 8

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/2/2011 5:27:08 PM

Altaris

Posts: 216
Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline

Another thing to keep in mind with HQ buildup is that you can move and attack with your panzers before doing the HQ buildup, so long as the HQ doesn't move and the panzers end up within 5 hexes of the HQ before you do the buildup. I like to utilize this especially up north, where movement is limited anyway and your panzers are likely to be fighting very closely to your infantry. If you know you can't make a breakthrough with the panzers, let them do some deliberate attacks to crush relatively weak points in the Russian frontlines (very little can stand up to several panzer divs on deliberate attack), then move your infantry up and HQ buildup your panzers. Next turn, those infantry can really bust open a nice hole, and your panzers will be in the 45-50 MP range, well ready to exploit weak areas behind the frontlines.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 9

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/3/2011 3:25:38 AM

Aussiematto

Posts: 344
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

It is not always about a pocket. .....

Opponents will not just give you these, you have to create the chances.

I think there's a bit too much of an obsession about pockets in some threads here, so agree with you. setting aside the first 2-3 turns, where pocketing large forces is essential to reduce the size of the defences, I would pose the following as an operational goal:

manoeuvre through enemy lines in well secured thrusts (as PDH suggested) such that the Soviet player either has to withdraw as he is outflanked OR runs the risk of being cut off by the infantry that is following.

As axis, I am currently being brutally destruayed in Jan 1942 in one game because I became obsessed with closing pockets and drestroying units in the turn 6-12 period of the game. What is happening to me now (because I lost too many men and didn't get a solid line established) is not pretty.

_____________________________

I still remember cardboard!

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 10

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/3/2011 1:49:53 PM

ComradeP

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline

Thinking mostly in terms of pockets for the first, say, 10 turns isn't a bad plan per se. The problem comes when you can't get out of the "must destroy the Soviet army" mode when it's time for you to dig in and give your troops a rest.

Pockets that require 3 or more turns to create/mop up, instead of 2, are also time consuming in the long run so if you're planning on making some awesome mega pocket, try to estimate how many turns you'd need to clean it up.

Even in the best case, you can't destroy the Soviet army, you can only put the hurt on it.

For me, 1941 is now about terrain gains within reasonable limits, the destruction of Soviet units, preparing for the first winter and trying to keep most of the army in a fighting shape (in no particular order).

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Aussiematto)

Post #: 11

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/8/2011 6:22:51 PM

mussey

Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline

"Thinking mostly in terms of pockets for the first, say, 10 turns isn't a bad plan per se. The problem comes when you can't get out of the "must destroy the Soviet army" mode when it's time for you to dig in and give your troops a rest."

I'm exactly at this point in my current game. Never seen the blizzard yet and I'm unsettled what to do next. After taking Moscow my temptation is to advance out/seek and destroy more Soviets and to push my boundaries as far east as possible and await the impending Soviet onslaught, albeit with greatly reduced numbers. I understand this is a risk, but for the uninitiated (like me) it appears that the soviet blizzard is very unkind (and from reading many posts) that a large German preparation will be pushed aside anyway(?). So, on to Gorki!

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

(in reply to ComradeP)

Post #: 12

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/11/2011 10:01:46 PM

Scook_99

Posts: 301
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline

Me and my friend have been playing every day since release, and I take German, he takes Russian (essentially a coin flip of who got to play what). I am finally getting out of the mindset of pockets when playing a human, it just will get you smashed early. Outside of Turn 1, I have yet to have a bold or daring move/encirclement not go unpunished. I think a lot of it has to do with playing with the cardboard counters, you can use them and move them to the fullest extent every turn with no penalty. Only now am I beginning to grasp what the limits of German mobile formation are, and how to handle them. A couple things my experience shows me:

1) If you are looking to encircle, think of isolating 3-4 unit pockets, as long as it lets you position your mobile units to threaten Russian lines and makes him move units en masse to a more stable position. Trapping a few units may not seem like much, but vs. a human they can add up. As long as you can keep the "Panzer threat" going, you can take a lot of territory, and just maybe get into position for a big pocket.

2) Build-Up is not a dramatic as what the rule book makes it appear to be, and it doesn't seem to hurt your overall supply net very much. The penalty is you cannot move your units for a turn. I am using build-up more and more these days, and finding it very worthwhile.

Please note though, I think I suck right now at playing German. Mid September and I have every mobile formation for 3rd Pz Army in refit mode on the rail line. Zhukov has really pounded them....hard. I am still searching for little ways to make my numbers better vs. the Soviets. Maybe we can continue a game past April 1942 one day.

Thanks, PDH, for posting what you did, it helps confirm what I am forming up for German doctrine in this game. Mussey, I am in your court here on what to do pre-blizzard, every dead Russian is one less to attack you in winter, and the further out you are, the more you can RUN AWAY!

(in reply to mussey)

Post #: 13

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/16/2011 4:00:01 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

As a Soviet player in a GC'41, I must add this:
Pay attention to the turns when German armor doesn't move far: those are the turns he is using HQ buildup.

My motto for any Soviet player to live or die by is this: Know how far a German panzer corps can move on 50 MPs. Plan your ZOC blanket accordingly.

When you fear an armor HQ is using buildup, it's definitely time to go checkerboard, and to protect any major paths that could lead to a 2- or 3-turn encirclement. Think of the pincers the Axis player will try to wedge deep into your zone defense, and if you don't think you can stop him from either the pincer penetration or the encirclement moves that come after, it's time to displace east, even if it means leaving good, dug-in rivers (I think rivers are great defenses, but they are security traps for the Soviet).

I'm playing my GC with a 10 percent reduction to Admin, Morale, and Fortification, too, so I have to rely less on forts. It's rare that I get good forts beyond level 2, and I have half as many level 2s as you would see at normal (or so I guess).

I personally use last turn's Unready infantry divisions to maintain contact with as many axis units as possible, especially armor in a hex by itself (so it'll either have to attack or spend extra MPs to move from ZOC to ZOC, or divert infantry in to attack in its place, throwing off planning a little bit, for little cost). Unready units generally bounce/route, and if they get encircled, they sucked anyway.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Scook_99)

Post #: 14

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/16/2011 4:12:48 PM

PeeDeeAitch

Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Know how far a German panzer corps can move on 50 MPs.�

Another mantra, but this time for the Soviets. However, the threat of this can re-open fluidity...

When resting German tanks, you can move a little bit, 1-2 hexes, to simulate an HQ buildup. If you have done something amazing with movement before you might be surprised at how skittish the Soviets can get...

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 15

RE: "...it's all about maintaining and maximizing ... - 4/27/2011 2:15:46 AM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

A panzer thurst can be a tactical spearhead that breaks a line or pockets a dozon or so enemy div's.

It can also be a 5 turn strategic pocket that pockets a millions Russians.

You need to kill at least 3 million Russians in 1941 to have a fighting chance to win the war.

As far as pockets go I will leave them in the back and let security and junk units mop them up. I have played 4 games now and one in AAR and another on going vs what seems to be my first exp russian player. So far I been able to have huge pockets in the bog+ the 2 easy 1st turn pockets an smaller ones in the north and south all going at the same time by turn 5. I am guessing close to 2 million bagged russians. I do not stop advancing until I am at my winter lines, which i have been able to get to by late september or early october. I haven't had the joy yet of a russian winter to try out my winter tactics vs a human. It might be great or it might lose the war, but eather way I cant wait to find out.

Its my experience the longer you let them sit in the pocket the better. Most poeple keep tring to break them out, which just nets more reds.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/27/2011 2:46:28 AM >

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 16