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RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/4/2011 2:50:09 PM   
morganbj


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

So should I read about this guy or not?



Don't read any book unless you get anonymous approval from all the psoters here. None of them has any biases whatsoever. All are rational, reasonable, and thoughtful.

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Occasionally, and randomly, problems and solutions collide. The probability of these collisions is inversely related to the number of committees working on the solutions. -- Me.

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Post #: 61
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/4/2011 3:18:56 PM   
Lrfss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

So should I read about this guy or not?




LOL, I would now just because...

Though actually I have only read 50% of the book, now I'll finish it this week I guess

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Post #: 62
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 12:51:42 AM   
Whyalterhistory


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Status: offline 		I see the "thought police" have been busy here.

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RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 1:24:54 AM   
bdtj1815

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whyalterhistory?

I see the "thought police" have been busy here.

Well if you admire the man in the photograph to the left of your comments you certainly will have no problem with "thought police".

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Post #: 64
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 2:08:50 PM   
harrmonica

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whyalterhistory?

I see the "thought police" have been busy here.


something tells me your going to add some serious insight into this discourse. i just can't quite put my finger on why that is.

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Post #: 65
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 3:35:27 PM   
barkman44

 

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Status: offline 		If more people had read Mein Kampf as a blueprint for the future{which it was}instead of some form of autobiography the world might be a far different maybe better place.

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Post #: 66
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 4:06:58 PM   
Lrfss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

If more people had read Mein Kampf as a blueprint for the future{which it was}instead of some form of autobiography the world might be a far different maybe better place.


Probably one of the more difficult books to finish that I've read! So much is so boring! However a must read for anyone that desires to have a clue about the mind set of the man and as you stated the blueprint of his desired future, etc.

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Post #: 67
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 4:49:04 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

I think the equivocation between a fanatical SS officer who denied a well proven historical fact (the Holocaust) to a British Prime Minister who may have taken a few liberties with nuances in his books is intellectually laughable.


I do not think that word means what you think it means...

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Post #: 68
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 5:35:43 PM   
Mynok


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It highly important to understand the thought processes behind great evil so that one may recognize it in the future. That doesn't necessarily mean one has to read books that are very disturbing to do so, but sometimes it can be clarifying.

That's the real purpose I see in preserving such books. Human malevolence and rationalization of it is a huge part of history, and such writings help us understand it and it's many varied manifestations better.


_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

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Post #: 69
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 7:02:14 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
It highly important to understand the thought processes behind great evil so that one may recognize it in the future. That doesn't necessarily mean one has to read books that are very disturbing to do so, but sometimes it can be clarifying.

That's the real purpose I see in preserving such books. Human malevolence and rationalization of it is a huge part of history, and such writings help us understand it and it's many varied manifestations better.


Have to agree, we all know what book burning leads to.


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

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Post #: 70
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 8:02:51 PM   
Berkut

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
It highly important to understand the thought processes behind great evil so that one may recognize it in the future. That doesn't necessarily mean one has to read books that are very disturbing to do so, but sometimes it can be clarifying.

That's the real purpose I see in preserving such books. Human malevolence and rationalization of it is a huge part of history, and such writings help us understand it and it's many varied manifestations better.


Have to agree, we all know what book burning leads to.



Smores?

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 71
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 8:25:19 PM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		It is fundamental to understand the material processes which give rise to all thought. If you begin and end your investigation at the level of thought and ideas, you will never grasp their cause in the material world and the circumsrtances in which humans find themselves.

People do the same things for quite different reasons and different things for almost identical reasons. How is one to determine the meaning of a thought or event, then? By relating it to the environment and processes in which it occured.

_____________________________

“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
-Leon Trotsky

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Post #: 72
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 8:47:00 PM   
Mynok


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You don't have to grasp cause. Indeed that's impossible. Even the perpretrator often doesn't know why he did what he did.

What you will find are patterns of thinking, and those can be discernable and recognizable elsewhere.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

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Post #: 73
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 8:55:34 PM   
Willard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

If more people had read Mein Kampf as a blueprint for the future{which it was}instead of some form of autobiography the world might be a far different maybe better place.


No it wasn't. Read Richard Evans' THE COMING OF THE THIRD REICH, in which he basically debunks that viewpoint.

On the issue of war crimes/atrocities, there needs to be some distinctions made. Isolated instances of military units or personnel massacring POWs or burning homes, etc, are obviously wrong and need to be prosecuted. However there is a difference between isolated instances AND the systemic-wide state directed atrocities and policies of the 3rd Reich, Japan and the Soviet Union. I am sure you can find historical evidence of a Brit or American or Canadian soldier killing a POW, etc, but I am not aware of any directive by the western allies ordering the wholesale murder of POWs, civilians, etc.

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Post #: 74
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 9:08:07 PM   
Berkut

 

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Status: offline 		Wasn't there a rumour that Bradley at some point ordered that snipers not be taken prisoner?

Or was that the German soldiers who were nailing US tanks from ambush with panzerfausts and then immediately surrendering?

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Post #: 75
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 9:18:20 PM   
Berkut

 

Posts: 757
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Status: offline 		Note: My comment about Bradley is NOT at all intended as an example of a directive by the Western Allies ordering war crimes...



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Post #: 76
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 9:27:36 PM   
Willard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

Wasn't there a rumour that Bradley at some point ordered that snipers not be taken prisoner?

Or was that the German soldiers who were nailing US tanks from ambush with panzerfausts and then immediately surrendering?



I belief it was not an order. I think he said something along the lines that he "saw no point in capturing" snipers. As for the tank story, I think they 2nd tank in line would take them out after their "surrender."

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Post #: 77
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 9:45:10 PM   
Reconvet

 

Posts: 355
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
It highly important to understand the thought processes behind great evil so that one may recognize it in the future. That doesn't necessarily mean one has to read books that are very disturbing to do so, but sometimes it can be clarifying.

That's the real purpose I see in preserving such books. Human malevolence and rationalization of it is a huge part of history, and such writings help us understand it and it's many varied manifestations better.


The real danger of some "books" lies in simple minds reading them without a wiser voice putting them in a context and pointing out darker aspects of their lecture. For example how - in this case - nazi ideology tried and still tries to lead humanity down the path to barbarism.

Simple minds reading, watching and listening to dangerous stuff are too easily seduced and exploited by clever manipulation. No wonder why ill-educated jobless kids are prime targets for neo-nazi agitators. That's why no uncommented editions of "Mein Kampf" and other hate brainware should be allowed to circulate. I definitly am no fan of limitless freedom of expression, it's one aspect of US legislation I can't admire.

By the way I hope this thread gets locked rather sooner than later. WitE was bound to attract neo-nazi elements (barkorn45 at the very least scratches the limits there, whyalterhistory with his hitler portrait is a clear case), but this forum should offer no platform for them. Let's discuss the game here, not politics...



_____________________________

The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


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Post #: 78
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 9:48:48 PM   
Reconvet

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

If more people had read Mein Kampf as a blueprint for the future{which it was}instead of some form of autobiography the world might be a far different maybe better place.



Just read this. No, you're not scratching the limits, you're a clear neo too. Go spread your brain dysentery elsewhere...



_____________________________

The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


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Post #: 79
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 11:44:20 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You don't have to grasp cause. Indeed that's impossible. Even the perpretrator often doesn't know why he did what he did.

What you will find are patterns of thinking, and those can be discernable and recognizable elsewhere.

What you are saying is that the world is not knowable, but we may know our perceptions of it. And you are saying this whether you know it or not. Similarly, because someone may not know what motivates them in no way rules out someone else knowing it. It's a very common occurence, however peevish that might be for whoever understands themself less than someone else does.

People see patterns everywhere, including where none exist by design or intent. Da Vinci was the first to comment on this I believe. What you are then saying, is that you can impose a meaning on phenomena of your own fancy and call it truth. But the pattern may exist only in your perception or have a completely different content from the one you imagine.

Your view is anti-science and anti-knowledge and is refuted by the entire passage of history.


_____________________________

“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
-Leon Trotsky

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 80
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/5/2011 11:56:55 PM   
harrmonica

 

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From: home of the celts!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

If more people had read Mein Kampf as a blueprint for the future{which it was}instead of some form of autobiography the world might be a far different maybe better place.


i'll quote you from earlier: I read degrelle's book as a "war"book not a political testiment

so which is it? did you start this thread to talk about the military aspects of WWII or political ones, because now i am confused.

(in reply to barkman44)
Post #: 81
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/6/2011 12:01:41 AM   
harrmonica

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 3/2/2011
From: home of the celts!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reconvet


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
It highly important to understand the thought processes behind great evil so that one may recognize it in the future. That doesn't necessarily mean one has to read books that are very disturbing to do so, but sometimes it can be clarifying.

That's the real purpose I see in preserving such books. Human malevolence and rationalization of it is a huge part of history, and such writings help us understand it and it's many varied manifestations better.


The real danger of some "books" lies in simple minds reading them without a wiser voice putting them in a context and pointing out darker aspects of their lecture. For example how - in this case - nazi ideology tried and still tries to lead humanity down the path to barbarism.

Simple minds reading, watching and listening to dangerous stuff are too easily seduced and exploited by clever manipulation. No wonder why ill-educated jobless kids are prime targets for neo-nazi agitators. That's why no uncommented editions of "Mein Kampf" and other hate brainware should be allowed to circulate. I definitly am no fan of limitless freedom of expression, it's one aspect of US legislation I can't admire.

By the way I hope this thread gets locked rather sooner than later. WitE was bound to attract neo-nazi elements (barkorn45 at the very least scratches the limits there, whyalterhistory with his hitler portrait is a clear case), but this forum should offer no platform for them. Let's discuss the game here, not politics...


whilst i won't go so far as to say lock the thread, i agree that espousing medieval ideologies has no place in a gaming forum, thinly veiled as his attempts were...

(in reply to Reconvet)
Post #: 82
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/6/2011 1:33:11 AM   
rchora

 

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Status: offline 		Well if I can give my humble opinion I guess the type of man this game attracts have more in common than not. I'm certain most of us read military history books by the score, have been playing similar games for a long time, and have some kind of military experience.

Also from my experience in other forums, this kind of games appeals more to the European player than console gaming for instance. Europeans are more present in strategy game forums than in other game forums.

Another thing I have noticed over the years in these kind of forums is that politics are always, kind of present, people seem about to burst their political views this kind of forums at every opportunity, at every excuse...Again I don't know why, but to me it has always looked that way...I have my suspicions but i'll keep them to myself as to why it may be...

This said we are still politically divided as always, its a fact. Not every die hard Nazi died without children, not every communist, fascist etc, and well not every democrat died without children, we are all here I'm sure.

However and in conclusion, I truly believe that politics are best left outside these forums, as there are many other forums where we can talk politics but only a few where we can talk about this game...

Talking about Degrelle outside the scope of the game includes talking about his book I believe, which I have read and its very politicized...He wrote that book without refraining his political views, therefore it seems very difficult to keep the conversation within the bounds of Wite, if we talk about Degrelle and his books here.

We may try but I'm sure it will get us nowhere.

Locking threads because of books is a dangerous precedent. I like military books, including biographies, and especially I like unit histories, maybe that's why I keep playing ww2 strategy games. These books can help us, not only enjoying a game but detecting little bugs in the order of battle, or in a given piece of equipment. Or even, in a more controversial note...to decide if SS men were indeed so much better than the average soldier...How many threads have I seen over the years in game forums because of the way elite/guard units should be represented in a given game? And always politics seems to always be there...in the sidelines, about to burst into a discussion...

Please excuse my english, I feel like a child speaking in English...But still I hope I've, at least, managed to make enough sense to convey my opinion to all.

(in reply to harrmonica)
Post #: 83
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/6/2011 2:18:22 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pirx the Pilot

Please excuse my english, I feel like a child speaking in English...But still I hope I've, at least, managed to make enough sense to convey my opinion to all.


Very well, in fact, and quite eloquently, I might add. More children should speak thusly...

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Post #: 84
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/6/2011 2:21:28 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Your English as well as your points are outstanding...


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Post #: 85
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/6/2011 3:31:24 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You don't have to grasp cause. Indeed that's impossible. Even the perpretrator often doesn't know why he did what he did.

What you will find are patterns of thinking, and those can be discernable and recognizable elsewhere.

What you are saying is that the world is not knowable, but we may know our perceptions of it. And you are saying this whether you know it or not. Similarly, because someone may not know what motivates them in no way rules out someone else knowing it. It's a very common occurence, however peevish that might be for whoever understands themself less than someone else does.

People see patterns everywhere, including where none exist by design or intent. Da Vinci was the first to comment on this I believe. What you are then saying, is that you can impose a meaning on phenomena of your own fancy and call it truth. But the pattern may exist only in your perception or have a completely different content from the one you imagine.

Your view is anti-science and anti-knowledge and is refuted by the entire passage of history.



Wrong, wrong, wrong. What I'm saying is that the human heart, from which motivation springs, is unknowable and deceitful...by the owner no less than others.

Far from being anti-science, I would contend science and logic helps us understand these things because it imposes rules upon our otherwise faulty observations, which can then guide us to discerning patterns. It cannot bring us to Truth, but it can bring us to a reasoned and supportable perspective. These perspectives can then shed light upon similar patterns in different contexts.

I think we radically disagree in our epistemology, so perhaps there's little point in furthering this discussion.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 86
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/6/2011 6:54:51 AM   
Reconvet

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 1/17/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pirx the Pilot
Well if I can give my humble opinion I guess the type of man this game attracts have more in common than not. I'm certain most of us read military history books by the score, have been playing similar games for a long time, and have some kind of military experience.


Of course those of us attracted by this kind of game have things in common. Problem with this thread is that it clearly was opened by a guy trying to start a political discussion to get a platform for his world view, and not to discuss the game. He "knows that the book author is an unrepentant nazi", yet in the same sentence he glorifies him. In another post he presents "Mein Kampf" as being a blueprint for a better world. What's next? An article published by Mengele on his "studies" in concentration camps? But of course the thread opener will question the existence of such camps...

Lock up this thread please!




< Message edited by Reconvet -- 4/6/2011 7:09:01 AM >

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The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


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Post #: 87
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/6/2011 7:21:16 AM   
rchora

 

Posts: 44
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Status: offline 		I think so too, I have to agree with you. Unless the forum member who created the thread comes up with a better explanation, I have to agree with your view, its hard not to see the issue by that perspective.

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Post #: 88
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/6/2011 8:19:34 AM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Wrong, wrong, wrong. What I'm saying is that the human heart, from which motivation springs, is unknowable and deceitful...by the owner no less than others.

Far from being anti-science, I would contend science and logic helps us understand these things because it imposes rules upon our otherwise faulty observations, which can then guide us to discerning patterns. It cannot bring us to Truth, but it can bring us to a reasoned and supportable perspective. These perspectives can then shed light upon similar patterns in different contexts.

I think we radically disagree in our epistemology, so perhaps there's little point in furthering this discussion.

Up to you. Materialism and metaphysics don't mix but understanding has advanced through conflict between the two, even if not for all the individuals involved in the conflict.

_____________________________

“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
-Leon Trotsky

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 89
RE: Leon Degrelle - 4/6/2011 7:55:11 PM   
Lrfss


Posts: 349
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Spring, TX
Status: offline 		I would like to know if forced labor is included in my German production efforts and do they increase say up to around early 1944 assuming I capture more manpower centers and like wise decrease if I lose them

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 90
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