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Pick your Pocket - 4/4/2011 7:22:35 PM

mussey

Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
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I'm playing my first CG as Germans vs 'normal' USSR AI so this will be pink poodle talk for the hardened PLEM (or whatever you call it) players.

I changed my invasion plan to by having all x4 Pz Grps converge on Moscow (thus 4th takes Pskov then was directed to Velkyle (sp), then Kalinin to north of Moscow; 1st Pz Grp encircles West Ukraine then pockets Kiev then goes to Kursk then behind Orel to south of Moscow). Anyway, my point is that (agaisnt AI) this has been very successful, resulting in continuous pockets whenever I decide to create and close any given group of Soviet units. These x4 Pz Grps kind of work together and I can (sort of) pick and choose my pockets. In real life, only AGC's 3rd and 2nd Pz Grp actually worked in a coordinated manner, up to the gates of Moscow. Gamey?

I'm now in mid-Sept and I'm within 30-50 miles of Moscow. 6th Army has just encircled Karkov with no Pz help. 1st Pz Grp has just broken lose north of Kursk driving far behind Orel all the way up to 4 hexes SE of Tula and has roled-up and pocketed everything in front of the 2nd Army. I could have taken Voronezh. All x4 Pz Grps are now in AGC's sphere of interest. 18th Army without Pz help is 3-4 hexes from Lenningrad.

Moscow has yet to be taken, and I haven't faced the German Winter of Discontent yet, but I don't think a 'normal' AI has the means to combat this strategy. Maybe I should hold my opinion until Spring 1942

..... Probably a real opponent would have adapted better(?). Next CG will be 1 level harder.

Another unrelated thought: In early Sept '41 I wished for another Pz Corp. I said to myself "Mussbu, what I wouldn't do for another Pz Corp." And wouldn't you know it, Mein Fuhrer gave me one the next turn! (I don't busy myself with reinforcement schedules.)

WHAT A GAME!

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

Post #: 1

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/5/2011 4:47:36 AM

AKCLIMBER

Posts: 78
Joined: 11/22/2010
From: Juneau, Alaska
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Sounds like you're making great progress. A few cautions from a noob who's experiencing his first foray into 1943 during a 1941-1945 GC as Germans vs normal AI (after 4 previous tries thru winter) - (1) How're your supply lines? Mud season will quickly be upon you and it's supply (as well as movement and attack) hell. Kinda like a mini 1st winter without the huge attrition. (2) Do you think you'll be able to bag Moscow or Lgrad? They're both big manpower centers and the capture of either or both will greatly help your cause later in the game. Same for the Stalino cities and Tula. And of course, all of those cities are fairly important resource/production centers. (3) And we all know, the capture of Lgrad releases the Finns and frees up a ton of your troops. Without that, winter could be interesting. Generally speaking, winter will be interesting if you don't capture more big manpower/production centers. (4) I wouldn't get too confident, even if 1942 treats you OK. I was good thru 1942 (got Lgrad and the Stalino cities and Kharkov, Kursk, Orel, Tula, Rostov, etc, in 1941 and Moscow, Tambov, Chervapovets, Ivanovo, Yaroslav and more cities in 1942). The Soviets in 1943, even after inflicting 9.4 million casualties on them, are a growing challenge. (5) Which leads me to ask how your casualties figures are

Glad you're having fun! Hope you keep us informed on how you make out!

< Message edited by AKCLIMBER -- 4/5/2011 6:24:45 AM >

(in reply to mussey)

Post #: 2

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/5/2011 6:18:56 AM

Aussiematto

Posts: 344
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
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I played one game vs the AI and got a curious result. I had given up on Moscow (not even really trying for it) but managed to get 2nd Pz group over the river to the south at Ryazan (eg I had a unit heading north from Ryazan). The AI got scared and pulled everything back. I took Moscow before the winter. I hadn't planned this, it just happened. So, given you prboably are going to learn a hard blizzard lesson soon, if you can, try to force the AI to retreat.

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(in reply to AKCLIMBER)

Post #: 3

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/5/2011 10:08:55 AM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: majeloz

I played one game vs the AI and got a curious result. I had given up on Moscow (not even really trying for it) but managed to get 2nd Pz group over the river to the south at Ryazan (eg I had a unit heading north from Ryazan). The AI got scared and pulled everything back. I took Moscow before the winter. I hadn't planned this, it just happened. So, given you prboably are going to learn a hard blizzard lesson soon, if you can, try to force the AI to retreat.

I have noted too that the AI has a tendency to be ultra-nervous about being encircled sometimes when it ought to have stayed and fought it out. But abandoning Moscow takes the prize!

(in reply to Aussiematto)

Post #: 4

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/5/2011 10:29:17 AM

Aussiematto

Posts: 344
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
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I know! I was stunned. If only humans scared that easily haha. (I won that game decisively before Xmas 1942 - in the end it just got tedious as I ground towards the last VP hex. Last AI game I play.)

PS if anyone wants to be scared, play me -- you will be scared at my ability to screw things up ;)

_____________________________

I still remember cardboard!

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 5

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/5/2011 7:35:12 PM

mussey

Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
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Late Sept. and no mud yet..... I have
- 4th Pz is 3 hexes due north of Moscow;
- 3rd Pz just encircled 6 more divs 3 hexes due west and right next to Moscow;
- 2nd Pz just encircled 3 divs and is adjacent to Moscow due south with one Corp across the river SE of Moscow;
- 1st Pz was just given to AGC (2nd Army given to AGS; trade) and has taken Ryazan and completed the pocket of Tula with 4th Army support.
- 6th Army just encircled Karkov.
- 18th Army is nearing Lenningrad (but obviously will not aggressively assult it).

Now I need some options Folks. Up to now I have avoided congested urban fighting. Should I slug it out for Moscow by converging x3 Pz Grps going block by block, or should I go for an encirclement. I'm not sure if I have enough support if I encircle and if USSR has more divs coming from the East...... When does the mud come? Is the Slav finnished, or am I on the precipice of disaster? LOVE THIS GAME.

Supply lines OK thus far (I think). My FBD (AGN) is about 12 hexes west of 4th Pz's drive; the other just passed Smolensk; the other from AGS is nearing Bryansk (about 10 hexes away). I've been using the 'HQ Buildup' option (just learned of it and tried several turns ago in late Aug '41). I haven't been able to figure out of to airlift fuel so Buildup seems to do the trick, and so far I've done them only sparingly/strategically when the Pz's are at a pause.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

(in reply to Aussiematto)

Post #: 6

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/5/2011 9:26:02 PM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

Now I need some options Folks. Up to now I have avoided congested urban fighting. Should I slug it out for Moscow by converging x3 Pz Grps going block by block, or should I go for an encirclement. I'm not sure if I have enough support if I encircle and if USSR has more divs coming from the East...... When does the mud come? Is the Slav finnished, or am I on the precipice of disaster? LOVE THIS GAME.

I would say go for an encirclement. It will save you men compared to taking the city the hard way. The AI will not be able to do much about it, mud or no mud.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey
Supply lines OK thus far (I think). My FBD (AGN) is about 12 hexes west of 4th Pz's drive; the other just passed Smolensk; the other from AGS is nearing Bryansk (about 10 hexes away).� I've been using the 'HQ Buildup' option (just learned of it and tried several turns ago in late Aug '41). I haven't been able to figure out of to airlift fuel so Buildup seems to do the trick, and so far I've done them only sparingly/strategically when the Pz's are at a pause.

Shift + right click in airlift mode to airlift fuel.

(in reply to mussey)

Post #: 7

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/5/2011 11:48:33 PM

buchand

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The AI in the game seems to be very reactive to threats to any of the main axes? Unlike other games with a semi hard wired defensive strategy thsi givea a lot of scope [and fun] for trying out different strategies.
Hadn't tried the Moscow first thrust though. Makes sense that if the political heart of the countyr was threatened it would draw reserves away.

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RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/6/2011 1:27:17 AM

dennisjensen

Posts: 13
Joined: 3/18/2011
From: Denmark
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I also had a funny experience with the AI. I started with a huge pocket around Moscow during september. After sweeping the pocket and taking Moscow, I send the two AGC panzergroups up north to hook up with the finns east of Lake Ladoga. This gave another HUGE pocket around Leningrad and gave the russians a casualty rate in january 1942 at almost 5 mio.

I thought I was absolutely brilliant until I realized I was playing with the AI set at Easy... DOH! Now, I have just tried to do the same with difficulty set at Normal. It can�t be done with a reasonable AI

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The troops were rockin' and the tanks were rollin'"

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Post #: 9

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/6/2011 5:57:50 PM

mussey

Posts: 683
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From: Cleve-Land
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I see the light! I went with the encirclement and closed the pocket around Moscow on the 10/2/41 GT. It was easier than I thought with all my assets that I brought to bear (see earlier post above). I see x21 Soviet units trapped with not much else outside the pocket near Ivanhoe (sp) - however, we'll see next turn if any counter attack is forthcoming. Weather is beautiful but waiting for a 'mud' turn whenever that will come....

I have AGN FBD x3 hexes from Moscow. BIG ADVANTAGE converting RR in Baltic States then turning right into USSR towards Velike (sp).

In the North, I'm near Lenningrad and close to Novograd.
In the South, I captured Karkov, and nearing Voronehz and Stalino. The Crimea is almost sealed (I have to whack'em back down that hole), but Odessa is besieged and tuff to crack.

THANKS from above: Airlift fuel! Also, after Moscow the idea of turning north for a Finnish hook-up, but I have yet to play a 'blizzard' turn and I haven't a clue what that will look like

. I may get conservative after Moscow falls...

Soviet losses are 3.3m with 2.7 killed and captured. Axis at .3m total.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

(in reply to dennisjensen)

Post #: 10

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/7/2011 8:52:08 AM

dennisjensen

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From: Denmark
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Mussey - you are lucky

. I still search for the light. Whenever I think I finally got a hold of the various aspects of the game, I discover I need to know a lot more about this wonderfull game.

I think it is crucial to go norht after taking Moscow. I can see in other threads in this forum that the key to german succes is to inflict a russian casualty rate at min. 5 mio. For this you have to make and overcome the huge Leningrad pocket. You should also keep in mind, that Leningrad strategicaly is much more important than Moscow. I think their benefit as a manpower ressource is quite the same to the russians, but taking Leningrad frees up all the finns, that you definately want to help you through the devastating first winter.

This leads to the question whether it should be easier to just go straight to Leningrad and quit worrying about Moscow as a first priority. I have to try this apporach at some point but it seems as if the AI protects Leningrad a bit more enthusiastic than it does at Moscow. Secondly, I think it is more easy to close a Leningrad pocket when you�re comming from Moscow in the south-east than it would be to close a Moscow-pocket comming partly from the north west.

_____________________________

"Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Poland,
The troops were rockin' and the tanks were rollin'"

(in reply to mussey)

Post #: 11

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/7/2011 11:02:53 PM

mussey

Posts: 683
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From: Cleve-Land
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I hear you. When I devised my strategy I based it more on the 'Marck's Plan' (which makes some sense with me) by focusing mostly on Moscow and thus the core of the Soviet army. I'll try other plans in future games.

Now - back to the game! I surrounded Moscow, it's still clear weather on 10/9/41 and there was no Soviet counterattack to relieve the pocket. (I formed a 'double ring'). I decided to rest about half of the Pz Corps/Build-up but the others are about to make a push - BUT I DON"T KNOW WHERE!

There are several reasons for my malaise: 1) all this talk on these posts have me totally freaked out about this 'blizzard' thingy, and I'm not sure if I should stop/dig-in or try to eliminate more Soviet forces; 2) I've never played geographically beyond western Russia and everything looks (and smells) different about the terraine east of Moscow; 3) I can't recognize the new Soviet center of gravity (if there is one) now that Moscow has nearly fallen. If it's just due east of it, my sense is to attack it and destroy it here and now quickly before the mud & snow hits. If its at Lenningrad, it may be too far with limited good weather available. Befuddled.

Thanks for all the great comments - keep'em coming. I'll let you know how I work this out.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

(in reply to dennisjensen)

Post #: 12

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/7/2011 11:24:34 PM

mussey

Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
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"I think it is crucial to go norht after taking Moscow..." Hey dennisjensen, if I do decide to turn north, what would be a good path? (I'm not at my computer game) and what I think I remember is that the terrain is woods/swampy north of Moscow. Maybe a few pathfinders can find an old indian trail that can lead me safely towards the Finns. Or should I retrace and send the Pz's around and about Pskov towards Novograd? Or should (or can) I get to Gorky before the snow...... Both these options seem too vast for the time remaining.

5 million Soviet losses? Yikes! I'm not sure what the total is after the Moscow pocket falls. I'll check next GT.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

(in reply to mussey)

Post #: 13

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/11/2011 6:38:22 AM

dennisjensen

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Joined: 3/18/2011
From: Denmark
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Hi again

The road I would choose would be left of the marsh. You will have a railline to suply yuo for some of the road. And the minute you clear on of the fortified positions next to the easterly placed finns, the finns will be able to participate in the battles.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Poland,
The troops were rockin' and the tanks were rollin'"

(in reply to mussey)

Post #: 14

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/11/2011 5:12:26 PM

mussey

Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dennisjensen

Hi again

The road I would choose would be left of the marsh. You will have a railline to suply yuo for some of the road. And the minute you clear on of the fortified positions next to the easterly placed finns, the finns will be able to participate in the battles.

Thanks! When I got home, I saw that too. Gads, that seems so far away......

Well, this is what happened after taking Moscow 10/19/41. Weather was still clear and my Panzer's were hungry, my friend, for Soviet roadkill. I was thinking of an advance on Gorki, and Vologda but unsure if I had time to do this weather-wise. So instead, I decided to entrap more Soviet units and if I got to these objectives so much the better. So, in short, I created 3 huge pockets entrapping about 60 soviet units (mostly brigade-size). I'm glad I did it this way because the very next turn was 'Mud' and all I could do was liquidate them and consolidate for another 'clear' turn (if it happens). I'm still short of Ivanovo & Murom.

If I get another clear turn I'm going to encircle/destroy a sector to the north of Moscow facing a portion of my 16th Army, using the 9th Army (after taking Moscow) and the 4th Pz Grp. If not, I guess I'm going to entrench. Soviet loses are 3.8 million, well short of the 5m target.

I feel uneasy at this point in the game, not knowing what a soviet blizzard will actually look like. There is confusion in the ranks as my army wants to advance, yet.........

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

(in reply to dennisjensen)

Post #: 15

RE: Pick your Pocket - 4/12/2011 10:22:51 PM

mussey

Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
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We're on the move! (Sort of...). A turn of snow/ice allowed me to launch a limited operation to clear out an area north of Moscow (from Kalinin to Ivanov). 4th Pz Grp moves west/ northwest to hook up with 16th Army north from Kalinin. Hopefully we can pocket about 20 Soviet units.

UPDATE: I ended that turn not completely creating the pocket and now this turn its mud! I'm not sure I can close it after this turn either...... October ends, hello November. I want these units destroyed badly, but how far do I go out and how long can I remain on the move without digging in?

Elsewhere, we're beginning to pull back some units and creating a few reserve corps (not sure where to position them though). x1 corp forming around Orel; a Pz corp near Pskov (because this is where much of the older/undestroyed Soviet army is at. My recon picked up 3-5 hexes deep of Soviets forming from Vorenez to Moran so maybe this is where I should look for the impending blizzard offensive? Also not sure about a consistant defense strategy ie 'linebacker', etc. Not sure to set up something deep 4-6 hexes or more shallow 2-3 hexes. So I've done a few variances of these in different places.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

(in reply to mussey)

Post #: 16