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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/29/2011 6:40:05 PM   
Yoozername

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

Those are pretty simple.


Totally agree.

In fact, I don't believe that they're really "technical" in nature. Rather, they were used for training and to imbue in crews an (unwarranted) sense of confidence in their vehicles.





I love when you try to talk above your paygrade. They aren't "technical" in nature? ROFLMAO! The US had thier own technical report that gave similar information. They are absolutely technical information. If anything, the Tiger information is a warning to crews regarding being attacked on certain surfaces and at certain angles.

My biggest issue with Mobius' 'clover-leaf' is the area between 1:30 and 2PM and the corresponding area between 10:00 and 10:30. Since his data is only reporting the BR-350A round, and the angle in these cases can be up to 750 meters in range, I find it very difficult to believe that the 'raw' 60mm side armor will be struck ( a very small area indeed) and that it would be penetrated if struck. The German information has the certainty at a much shorter range. and one might assume that they are factoring in other 76.2mm rounds for the T34 'lang'.

Edit: I don't agree with the back shaded areas either.

< Message edited by Yoozername -- 1/29/2011 6:48:17 PM >

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 451
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/29/2011 6:41:28 PM   
Yoozername

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Line drawings, for comparisons sake, of the same vehicles in hull-defilade view:






Any reason that you have off-set the StuG higher? What is it you are trying to show with this information?

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 452
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/29/2011 7:19:35 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

Those are pretty simple.


Totally agree.

In fact, I don't believe that they're really "technical" in nature. Rather, they were used for training and to imbue in crews an (unwarranted) sense of confidence in their vehicles.





I love when you try to talk above your paygrade. They aren't "technical" in nature? ROFLMAO! The US had thier own technical report that gave similar information. They are absolutely technical information. If anything, the Tiger information is a warning to crews regarding being attacked on certain surfaces and at certain angles


The posters in question were put together for crew training purposes, not as technical guides:







Attachment (1)

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/29/2011 7:46:33 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
My biggest issue with Mobius' 'clover-leaf' is the area between 1:30 and 2PM and the corresponding area between 10:00 and 10:30. Since his data is only reporting the BR-350A round, and the angle in these cases can be up to 750 meters in range, I find it very difficult to believe that the 'raw' 60mm side armor will be struck ( a very small area indeed) and that it would be penetrated if struck. The German information has the certainty at a much shorter range. and one might assume that they are factoring in other 76.2mm rounds for the T34 'lang'.

Edit: I don't agree with the back shaded areas either.

I put some number to the shaded regions.
What is strange about the official clover leafs is that the ability to penetrated goes to 0% at 30 to 45 degrees. So you wonder if they just put an additional 30-45 degree slope on their armor it would be impervious to penetration from any angle.

I left out the area between 30° and 45° because I don't know how the game handles this area. In our miniature rules we give it an equal chance of hitting the front armor or side armor (at a deflection) just because the tank is usually much longer than it is wide. But the original developer may not have included that into the game.


< Message edited by Mobius -- 1/29/2011 7:55:20 PM >

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Post #: 454
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/30/2011 1:47:30 PM   
Yoozername

 

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Status: offline 		I saw you put angles and also added a '4' arc.  How does one read the concentric arc lines?  Are they additive?  From the flank, its 26, then 4 and 8 on the outer ring? 

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Post #: 455
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/30/2011 4:11:10 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

I saw you put angles and also added a '4' arc.  How does one read the concentric arc lines?  Are they additive?  From the flank, its 26, then 4 and 8 on the outer ring? 

No they aren't additive, though probably in any other diagrams I should make them additive. Because of the number of different locations and the variation in penetration it is a complicated process getting all this in a picture. It might not be that useful in the end.

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Post #: 456
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/30/2011 9:57:14 PM   
Yoozername

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

I've tried to run down the % chances of penetration for the early round of the T-34 gun.
The 8% chance at the longer ranges reflects the vulnerable lower hull past the road wheels.






Should the '4's be 14????

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Post #: 457
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/31/2011 12:14:54 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Line drawings, for comparisons sake, of the same vehicles in hull-defilade view:





What is it you are trying to show with this information?


Just wanted to compare the types as targets in hull-defilade. Clearly, the Stug has "a lot more to offer" the enemy in that regard.




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Post #: 458
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/31/2011 1:46:07 AM   
Yoozername

 

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Status: offline 		And you have much to learn about simple math.

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 459
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/31/2011 2:38:01 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

And you have much to learn about simple math.


And you've got a lot to learn about technical matters. Your time at Fort Wood studying bulldozers has apparently left you with the impression that a wall-poster done in art-deco and fraktur is somehow the equivalent of a technical study. I know that the Army struggles with the quality of its recruits, but even you should have learned to distinguish what is little more than a cartoon from a deeper analysis of the myriad dangers facing German AFV crew during WW2, your curious fixation on "green-wheels," notwithstanding.




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Post #: 460
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/31/2011 3:35:02 AM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
Should the '4's be 14????

No, it's 4 or actually 3.88..%.


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Post #: 461
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/31/2011 4:14:04 AM   
Yoozername

 

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Status: offline 		So, the chance of penetration goes from 26%, to 4%, then back up to 8%?

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Post #: 462
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/31/2011 4:31:03 AM   
Yoozername

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Line drawings, for comparisons sake, of the same vehicles in hull-defilade view:





What is it you are trying to show with this information?


Just wanted to compare the types as targets in hull-defilade. Clearly, the Stug has "a lot more to offer" the enemy in that regard.





The 'regard' being you posting a 1941 turret compared to a 1943 AFV????

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Post #: 463
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/31/2011 5:13:08 AM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

So, the chance of penetration goes from 26%, to 4%, then back up to 8%?

There is an 26% then another 4% then another 8% further out. By additive I thought you meant were the % numbers added into the totals.

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Post #: 464
RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/31/2011 5:22:20 AM   
Yoozername

 

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Status: offline 		Well, I hope that clears it up for everybody.  RELEASE THE UPDATE!!

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Post #: 465
RE: StuG BS discussions - 2/1/2011 2:54:59 AM   
Mus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ezz

{Repeat post..
Sorry about that but I find repeating a point 100 times makes it more believable.}

I would like to bring something to the developer's attention. I see this game is almost ready for publication. However you have still not addressed a very serious problem.
Specifically the stats for the PzIIf.

I have, after meticulous research, discovered that when this tank was deployed with the Spanish Blue Division a modification was made. The Spanish maintenance crews suggested a way to increase the armour of the PzIIf.
This consisted of them making a batch of Paella and smearing it on the front armour. Now this , sometimes with added Chorizo, greatly increased the ability of the vehicle to withstand AP shells. By as much as perhaps 25mm...No, make that 60mm.

I travelled to the Canary islands, and at Fuertoventura discovered a small WWII museum. I immediately checked the PzIIf there. It had greasy, slimy, food stains right across the front armour. Also a ceramic plate, metal knife, wine bottle,and a small cloth banner had been added to the turret. I asked the museum's curator to comment.

"Hmm.. it looks like the janitor has been having his lunch. Look, there's his tablecloth."

HAH! WRONG!

After much research I can assure you that the German Panzer regiments also made up a Paella/Pea Sausage/150g of crackers, modification locally. This unauthorised up-armouring had the effect of making the front armour of a PzIIf the equivalent of a KV-1. Far from ripping the turret off and flinging it 100m into the sky, a 76mm shell would bounce harmlessly off.

I ask the developer this.

1.Will the new 'ration covering,' unofficial armoured modification, be included in this game. For historical accuracy it can hardly be ignored!
2. Will the modification now permit the PzIIf to be impervious to all but rounds fired at close range from an IS-2 ?
3. Would you like some information on the rocket propelled, high impact, wooden AP projectile that some special rifles were adapted to fire? I have a picture of a modified Kar-98 stool-leg that I can post.
{Some claim it is in fact a rifle resting by a chair. But that is opinion only for the uniformed..}

I await your reply with a mix of amusement, outrage, schizophrenia, humour, bile, breathlessness and incredulity.
{Incredulity only if you fail to grasp my genius.}

Uzi-name.


You win the thread btw.

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Post #: 466
RE: StuG BS discussions - 3/29/2011 6:12:56 PM   
Yoozername

 

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Interesting targeting information.  Note that the sloped surfaces are not mentioned...

(3) Against the self-propelled assault gun, fire as follows:

(a) From the front--against the front of the hull, the drivers port, and below the tube of the gun;
(b) From the side--against the armor protecting the engine, and the turret.
(c) From behind--against the exhaust vent and directly beneath the turret.


(in reply to Mus)
Post #: 467
RE: StuG BS discussions - 3/29/2011 6:59:54 PM   
Mobius


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From: California
Status: offline 		The "turret gear box" must be the turret ring.

I did find that the Mark IV had an inner mantlet as well as an outer mantlet. But it has cutouts for the MG and sights and may be only 10-25mm.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 3/29/2011 7:02:32 PM >

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Post #: 468
RE: StuG BS discussions - 3/29/2011 8:39:32 PM   
Mad Russian


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Status: offline 		So, after weeks this thread wakes up again....

When you're in a PzIV you'll take all the protection you can get 10-25mm is more than 0.

Good Hunting.

MR


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Post #: 469
RE: StuG BS discussions - 3/29/2011 9:31:26 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

So, after weeks this thread wakes up again....

Yousirname must have seen his shadow 6 weeks ago.

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Post #: 470
RE: StuG BS discussions - 3/29/2011 9:42:58 PM   
Yoozername

 

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Status: offline 		Mad Russian must not have had his Big Movement he sensed coming..,.

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Post #: 471
RE: StuG BS discussions - 3/29/2011 11:44:12 PM   
Mad Russian


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Status: offline 		Or maybe he did see the Big Movement he saw coming...and maybe you didn't see it.

Good Hunting.

MR


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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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Post #: 472
RE: StuG BS discussions - 3/30/2011 1:02:23 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Mad Russian must not have had his Big Movement he sensed coming..,.


lewis, your "genius-expert" status is in jeopardy.

Back in October, a new poster showed up over at BF by the name of "Jadgzilla."

In his first and only contribution, he resurrected a two-year old thread that proceeded to go on for several months and another eighteen pages:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1210923&postcount=87

Jadgzilla never posted to the forum again.

Real talent, wouldn't you say Mr. Tittles?


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Post #: 473
RE: StuG BS discussions - 3/30/2011 1:06:42 AM   
Yoozername

 

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Status: offline 		I would add 'paranoid' to your list of personality disorders.  Also, I see you did not have the guts to add your CONCRETE theories to that thread?  Why not share your spamming there?  Or have you just settled on being a occasional troll now?

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 474
RE: StuG BS discussions - 4/19/2011 2:15:24 AM   
Hellmann

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Pat yourself on the back prince.  You are the texas-troll on a saturday night!

Eh, no hot-dates lately? That's Ok, I see that yappy lapdog in the picture and feel I know everything about you.

Edit: I have to be honest, your trolling, while desperate and obviously 'long' thought out has me puzzled. Try to explain to me, using your extensive texas education, what you think you are saying, what you think it accomplishes, and how anyone would care. Thanks. Troll.

quote:

saturday


What I found most interesting about your post was it says here on the screen that Prince of Eckmühl's post was on 12/12/2010 5:50:10 AM, and your above reply was on 12/12/2010 6:22:02 AM... less than an hour between both posts? So isn't it rather hypocritical to say "no hot dates on a Saturday night" when you were clearly in the same position? We know he's in Texas, so what timezone were you in when you wrote that? Where were you... Israel... UK.. Switzerland.. Japan.. China.. Australia? If you were in somewhere like say, east coast USA like New York (which I am guessing you are from your arrogant attitude), then were you not actually in a more embarrassing position on a Saturday night than Prince was?

Actually, don't even bother replying, it's not as if I'm ever going to reply to you or bother reading this thread again. What I found most fascinating about this entire thread most of all was that people actually took time to respond after you stated your title of "genius expert". Myself, I rather tend not to bother wasting any time on self-satisfied, mentally challenged know-it-all's like you. Auf Wiedersehen.


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Post #: 475
RE: StuG BS discussions - 4/19/2011 2:51:28 AM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
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Status: offline 		Saturday is more of a couples night out.  Friday night is for singles.

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Post #: 476
RE: StuG BS discussions - 4/19/2011 3:08:12 AM   
junk2drive


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Status: offline 		Been so long I don't remember.

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Post #: 477
RE: StuG BS discussions - 4/19/2011 3:29:11 AM   
Yoozername

 

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quote:

Actually, don't even bother replying, it's not as if I'm ever going to reply to you or bother reading this thread again.


Oh, no bother at all. But you read the whole thing huh?

Why do I get the feeling that he is 'bothered' and will 'reply'? Say what you might about the internet; But its given the cowards of this planet a place to call home.






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Post #: 478
RE: StuG BS discussions - 4/19/2011 2:47:18 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		A wee bit of StuG action.

http://frontkaempfer.blogspot.com/2011/04/stug-action-early-1943.html

Bolshevik!

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Post #: 479
RE: StuG BS discussions - 4/19/2011 3:51:39 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Status: offline 		Yoozername,

Also noting here that personal attacks are not allowed, that includes condescending insults. Formal warning, as noted in the other thread. Please post with civility or you'll get a vacation from the forum to reconsider.

Regards,

- Erik

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