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Sun Tzu... - 4/16/2011 9:18:04 PM   
Footslogger


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Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Washington USA
Status: offline 		I was watching a program on the History Channel that talked about Sun Tzu's tactics that are still used today. Espcially in the Vietnam War with General Jap. What do you guys think?
Post #: 1
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/16/2011 10:01:54 PM   
ilovestrategy


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Status: offline 		I always felt his book was plain common sense.

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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/17/2011 12:56:35 AM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
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From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		Strategy is by its nature is applicable across the ages with limited augmentation (usually as technology evolves). Certainly this work is one of the best known of the ancients, and the one of the oldest fully preserved texts. I think just about any military leader could quote some aspect of the work. Not that they could not qoute many other texts too...



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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/17/2011 1:05:39 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
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From: San Diego
Status: offline 		Just like to get there first with the most men!

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Post #: 4
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/17/2011 3:21:24 AM   
Dobey455

 

Posts: 445
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Status: offline 		Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.

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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/17/2011 5:13:21 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
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Status: offline 		Giap, not "Jap". 

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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/17/2011 5:23:03 PM   
Chickenboy


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.



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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/18/2011 1:01:45 AM   
Joe D.


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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

I was watching a program on the History Channel that talked about Sun Tzu's tactics that are still used today. Espcially in the Vietnam War ...


Some of the show's conclusions abt Lee at Gettysburg were a bit of of a "reach"; Lee realized that the South couldn't win a prolonged struggle and hoped to end it prematurely in Pennsylvania: IMO, his defeat was born more out of desperation than a lack of deception, but it might have been helpful to compare the entire battlefield with the AoW's 9 types of ground.

And I would have prefered to apply the AoW to the PTO instead of the D-Day ETO.

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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/18/2011 5:26:10 PM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Plus it is important to keep in mind the period/terrain/political setup under which Sun Tzu operated. The conditions of that type of warfare are relatively difficult to set up today (population too large too many population centres, speed of communications and armies in general the compostion of armies etc). Today, if one is taking on a relatively sophisticated military power, it is less possible to decieve them on and off the battlefield.

Also note that Sun Tzu tips on strategy should be seen as one alternative. Someone already mentioned Clauswitz who essentially reflects the western way of war (the decisive battle). One could also use the Strategicon of Maurice which somehow managed to make a balanced judgement of the military situation of the day while giving useful tips on strategy. I also believe that it has been credited as being the first time that an author came up with the combined arms approach to making war and lies somewhere between Sun Tzu and Clauswitz in method. 

 

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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/18/2011 7:07:53 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

Just like to get there first with the most men!


You forgot the most important part "and don't let anybody know you're coming!"


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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/18/2011 7:47:29 PM   
Footslogger


Posts: 1232
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From: Washington USA
Status: offline 		Check out this vid about half way in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFXafbTvdp4

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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/19/2011 3:22:49 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger


Some of the show's conclusions abt Lee at Gettysburg were a bit of of a "reach"; Lee realized that the South couldn't win a prolonged struggle and hoped to end it prematurely in Pennsylvania:


Actually, the South had a chance to win the War had they decided to intelligently fight the war in the West instead of the congested, restricted East.

It was foolish of the Confederacy to fight the North where they were strong as you have pointed out, they stood no chance winning a war of attrition-which is exactly the war they chose to fight.

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Post #: 12
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/19/2011 6:32:52 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey
Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.

No, not really. Sun Tzu is just like Napoleon, Clausewitz, Takanaka, Charles X, Belisarius, Sulla, Joshua ben Levi, Rahotep, Sargon., and so many others.

What these folks are saying, is nothing more than what should be in the mind of a commander; how his mind comprehends the whole of an expanded battlespace. These people don't talk about tactics; that is for lesser men after they have been positioned.

Warfare is not weapons, it is not tactics, it is not little inky-dinky internet bullshit. Warfare is mind, and it is will, and it is purpose. And that's why all these guys and a gazillion others are so well studied.

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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/19/2011 10:53:09 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey
Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.

No, not really. Sun Tzu is just like Napoleon, Clausewitz,


Not to "ding" Clausewitz, but this thread is the first I've heard anyone say that Sun Tzu was an inferior strategist.

Hackworth had nothing but high praise for Sun Tzu.

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Post #: 14
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/19/2011 10:56:49 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		Actually, the United States military of the 1960s and 70's was heavily influenced by Clausewitz and they got their ass kicked by the adherents of Sun Tzu in SE Asia.

I think that pretty much closes the case.

(Sorry for the off-topic rant, but the statement at the beginning of this thread tweaked me a bit).

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Post #: 15
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 12:29:05 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger


Some of the show's conclusions abt Lee at Gettysburg were a bit of of a "reach"; Lee realized that the South couldn't win a prolonged struggle and hoped to end it prematurely in Pennsylvania:


Actually, the South had a chance to win the War had they decided to intelligently fight the war in the West instead of the congested, restricted East.

It was foolish of the Confederacy to fight the North where they were strong as you have pointed out, they stood no chance winning a war of attrition-which is exactly the war they chose to fight.



This post is SNAFU.

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Post #: 16
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 3:21:01 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
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From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
Warfare is not weapons .... Warfare is mind, and it is will, and it is purpose.

And while you're motivating yourself by singing Gregorian war chants, I'm dropping a few nukes on your ... head.



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Post #: 17
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 4:55:50 PM   
Bandkanon

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/25/2001
From: Hengchun, Taiwan
Status: offline 		My favorite quote from Sun Tzu is

"If you know yourself and know your enemy, one hundred battles one hundred victories;
If you know yourself but do not know your enemy, then for every victory you will suffer a loss;
If you do not know yourself and do not know your enemy, you will always be defeated."

I think most Westerners miss a key aspect about Sun Tzu's Art of War, that it is not about war in its purest sense. Sun Tzu lived in the Spring and Autumn Period of China when China consisted of dozens if not hundreds of feudal states all vying for survival. His Art of War was a reflection of those times of political uncertainty, and much of it is about the relationships between the state, its ruler, and its ministers and how those roles should be used in order to initiate and complete a successful war in all of its aspects politically, culturally, and militarily.

An important second point of context is that during the Spring and Autumn Period, there were numerous teachers who were espousing their ideas about how to administer the state and its people by the ruler and his ministers. Sun Tzu was just one of them. His ideas were not of particular significance during that time. However, his most important ideas, I think, was the separation of the authority of the ruler with the command of his generals and the complete utilization of the state and its economy and society to the pursuit of war. These ideas were brought to its most distilled philosophy under the Legalists such as Han Feizi and put to brutal and efficient use by prime minister Lisi for the state of Chin. Chin in a short span of time was able to conquer the other 6 large states surrounding it and unite China under its first real emperor, Chin Shi Huangdi.

To wrap it all up, the Art of War is a strategy of patience and waiting, something the West and Americans in general are not comfortable with pursuing as a viable advantage. But if you read the news and observe the trends that China is pursuing in growing its political and economic power, you can clearly perceive that its leaders have read the Art of War and are using some of its teachings to great effect. Whether that effect is positive or negative in the long term is debatable, but Sun Tzu is certainly still alive and kicking (our American butts, again).

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Post #: 18
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 5:04:15 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
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From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
Warfare is not weapons .... Warfare is mind, and it is will, and it is purpose.

And while you're motivating yourself by singing Gregorian war chants, I'm dropping a few nukes on your ... head.




Amen....

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Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

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Post #: 19
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 5:38:22 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.



I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu.


So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money".

And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?"

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 4/20/2011 7:50:33 PM >

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Post #: 20
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 6:13:00 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I'd still put Tzu fu under the title of enlightened common sense rather than anything particularly mind blowing. Telling me that it is wise to keep an enemy off balance is like my dad telling me to brush my teeth before I put my tie on instead of vice-versa . . . good idea but obvious.

Having said that, it's still a must read.

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Post #: 21
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 6:30:44 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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Joined: 7/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Actually, the United States military of the 1960s and 70's was heavily influenced by Clausewitz and they got their ass kicked by the adherents of Sun Tzu in SE Asia.

I think that pretty much closes the case.

(Sorry for the off-topic rant, but the statement at the beginning of this thread tweaked me a bit).



they may have been "influenced" by Clausewitz, but they certainly didn't apply his teachings effectively...thus, it may be erroneous to draw the above conclusion...

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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 6:31:44 PM   
Kwik E Mart


Posts: 2447
Joined: 7/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.



I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu.


So "put your money where you mouthy is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money".

And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?"





_____________________________

Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.

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Post #: 23
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 7:52:59 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz.



I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu.


So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money".

And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?"




Over 3 hours later and no reply from Dobey....even though he was on forum when I posted......Hm.......maybe the European "code duello" model didn't work. Maybe I should adopt the "Code of the west " model, of my recently adopted new home.



DOBEY! I'm calling you out! I double dog dare you!

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Post #: 24
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 8:27:42 PM   
Chickenboy


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.


Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing.

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic.


< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 4/20/2011 8:28:42 PM >

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RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 9:06:47 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.


Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing.

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic.




Just remmber this.....I always lie! But if I tell you I'm lying???/
Sun Tzu is my patron saint. But also in that chorus is Boyd,Cobert,Jomini,DeGualle (yes, that one) Wyle,Mahan,Douyet,Guderian,Bywater, and even Clauswitz. I collect any books and papers I can on military theory and strategy. Then like any good Chinese menu, one from colum a, and one from colum b...............

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Post #: 26
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 9:20:16 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.


Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing.

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic.




Just remmber this.....I always lie! But if I tell you I'm lying???/
Sun Tzu is my patron saint. But also in that chorus is Boyd,Cobert,Jomini,DeGualle (yes, that one) Wyle,Mahan,Douyet,Guderian,Bywater, and even Clauswitz. I collect any books and papers I can on military theory and strategy. Then like any good Chinese menu, one from colum a, and one from colum b...............

I believe that you're lying about your patronage, your collection of books and your selection of theories and dictums from those respective military strategists. Or you're not. Whatever.

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Post #: 27
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 10:03:41 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.


Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing.

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic.




Just remmber this.....I always lie! But if I tell you I'm lying???/
Sun Tzu is my patron saint. But also in that chorus is Boyd,Cobert,Jomini,DeGualle (yes, that one) Wyle,Mahan,Douyet,Guderian,Bywater, and even Clauswitz. I collect any books and papers I can on military theory and strategy. Then like any good Chinese menu, one from colum a, and one from colum b...............

I believe that you're lying about your patronage, your collection of books and your selection of theories and dictums from those respective military strategists. Or you're not. Whatever.


You may peruse them when we hold the often delayed mid west summit. Speaking of which, when is a good time to begin organizing? Snows done here. Springs here.

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Post #: 28
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 10:08:45 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.


Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing.

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic.



The only contact that I had with that "esteemed group of gentlemen" was when they were trying to drown me, starve me,chase me or in general , do me harm. (Various Navy training and survival schools where those wonderful people were the "instructors" (read sadist,tormentors etc). They may "nerver fight fair". But they also "Lie like a rug!". "Sure. We'll feed you. Yeah the test is easy. We'll help you swim!" (By hitting you in the back of the head with a ^&&**((*&^^%%^&* pole!). NEVER trust a SEAL! EVER!

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Post #: 29
RE: Sun Tzu... - 4/20/2011 10:21:14 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game.


Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing.

Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic.




Just remmber this.....I always lie! But if I tell you I'm lying???/
Sun Tzu is my patron saint. But also in that chorus is Boyd,Cobert,Jomini,DeGualle (yes, that one) Wyle,Mahan,Douyet,Guderian,Bywater, and even Clauswitz. I collect any books and papers I can on military theory and strategy. Then like any good Chinese menu, one from colum a, and one from colum b...............

I believe that you're lying about your patronage, your collection of books and your selection of theories and dictums from those respective military strategists. Or you're not. Whatever.


You may peruse them when we hold the often delayed mid west summit. Speaking of which, when is a good time to begin organizing? Snows done here. Springs here.

Sez you. Another 2" this morning... But, perhaps the warm southern climes of Nebraska () are already in a full-throated Spring.

I'd still like to drive down there over a three day weekend or something like that. I'll PM you to get the discussion started...

_____________________________


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Post #: 30
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