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Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/26/2011 7:27:06 AM   
Vorsteher


Posts: 251
Joined: 4/1/2000
Status: offline 		new rules with partisans ? I play the barbarossa scenario 1941 and in july , partisans attacks my rails ?


V.


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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/26/2011 10:20:53 AM   
76mm


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From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		haha, that's how it is supposed to work. Apparently it was broken in 1.03, and the partisans didn't get adequate supplies. That is now fixed, and the partisans are back!

(in reply to Vorsteher)
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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/26/2011 1:27:41 PM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		Yes, but in '41 July? The thugs of the Ostadministration barely had enough time by then to aleinate the Ukranian population into partisanship.

Marquo

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/26/2011 1:59:02 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
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Status: offline 		First partisan units created from shattered divisions which is historical. However recent fix in supply was made just before the release of the patch, so we didn't had much time to test it. Now we discovered that some partisans can become too strong too early. So they will be toned down.

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/26/2011 8:26:38 PM   
kswanson1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vorsteher

new rules with partisans ? I play the barbarossa scenario 1941 and in july , partisans attacks my rails ?


V.



I've noted a huge increase in partisan activities in my on going PBEM games. I've lost about 150 to 200 miles worth of vital rail road tracks over the last two or three turns. This started in late august of 1941 and has continued into september.

I have been very careful about maintaining all garrisons at 100 to 150%. The enhanced RR-track destruction has made it impossible to advance railheads as the mobile FBD units have to be sent back on foot to repair broken lines. This is not an insignificant issue given how crucial it is for the axis to get railHeads advanced as quickly as possible if they to have even a slim chance of dealing a decisive blow to the Soviets in 1941.



< Message edited by kswanson1 -- 4/26/2011 8:37:01 PM >

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/27/2011 1:18:30 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		As Pavel said, this will be toned back. However, there is a way to prevent attacks on vital rail but it involves breaking down units and using them for security of the key rails. Although the manual says partisans will attack unoccupied hexes, I think they will not attack in hexes that are adjacent to a combat unit as well. I think this is the case, and a quick test of 42 showed this to be the case. So you could use airbases and HQ to garrison some hexes, and security regiments and Axis Allied units to spread out and cover multiple hexes with there ZOCs. This may be important when you only have a few key rail lines running deep into enemy territory.

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/27/2011 5:10:39 AM   
Wild


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Status: offline 		Glad to hear it is being toned down some.

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/27/2011 10:21:32 AM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

As Pavel said, this will be toned back. However, there is a way to prevent attacks on vital rail but it involves breaking down units and using them for security of the key rails. Although the manual says partisans will attack unoccupied hexes, I think they will not attack in hexes that are adjacent to a combat unit as well. I think this is the case, and a quick test of 42 showed this to be the case. So you could use airbases and HQ to garrison some hexes, and security regiments and Axis Allied units to spread out and cover multiple hexes with there ZOCs. This may be important when you only have a few key rail lines running deep into enemy territory.


Thanks Joel for explaing it, glad to hear they are being toned down a bit, I would agree the partisans seem to have gone wild in 1.04. Well, given your proposed solution, at least this gives the RHQs something to do...

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/27/2011 7:57:10 PM   
gids

 

Posts: 369
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Status: offline 		sad very sad :p i seem to love my partisan friends

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/28/2011 3:44:48 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


Thanks Joel for explaing it, glad to hear they are being toned down a bit, I would agree the partisans seem to have gone wild in 1.04. Well, given your proposed solution, at least this gives the RHQs something to do...


you actually kept yours????

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 10:49:48 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
As Pavel said, this will be toned back. However, there is a way to prevent attacks on vital rail but it involves breaking down units and using them for security of the key rails. Although the manual says partisans will attack unoccupied hexes, I think they will not attack in hexes that are adjacent to a combat unit as well. I think this is the case, and a quick test of 42 showed this to be the case. So you could use airbases and HQ to garrison some hexes, and security regiments and Axis Allied units to spread out and cover multiple hexes with there ZOCs. This may be important when you only have a few key rail lines running deep into enemy territory.


Airbases and HQ's don't qualify as "combat units" in general, do they for partisan warfare?

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 12:43:53 PM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		No, but the hex they sit in is safe, that is the point.

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 2:09:40 PM   
Farfarer61

 

Posts: 713
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Status: offline 		a use for the Rumanian airbases and HQs after all :)

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 3:24:18 PM   
James Ward

 

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From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Status: offline 		Won't hq's and airbases be displaced if a partisan moves next to them?

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 3:47:50 PM   
pompack


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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

Won't hq's and airbases be displaced if a partisan moves next to them?

no, but I do find HQ and airbases sitting on broken rail hexes after a partisan appears several hexes away. My favorite is the FDB unit sitting on the railhead with the hex behind it broken. This does not happen with a combat unit.

War is hell and HQ REMFs and aircraft mechanics really don't do well at anit-partisan patrols. And furthermore, even if they did the mechanics wouldn't have time to fix airplanes and the REMFs wouldn't have time to do whatever REMFs do when they work

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 7:42:10 PM   
kswanson1

 

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Status: offline 		Not to belabor this, but it I don’t think partisans were capable of destroying 150 to 200 miles of rail road track in a week. I find it equally difficult to except that Partisans could completely destroy even 10-miles of consecutive track in the course of a week. I think it conceivable and very beleivable that they could and did destroy very small sections of track within a 200 mile stretch of rail road track. But destruction of every piece of rail section, every sleeper, every bit of bedding over even a 10 mile stretch of track seems unlikely.

Partisan bands\groups\gaggles – in between looting and terrorizing the local population -- could and did destroy small sections of track via setting explosives or unbolting track from sleepers. Partisan bands would than fade back into the forests and swamps after track destruction. Localized demolition -- while a nuisance -- would not leave an entire 100mile stretch of track inoperable. Localized breaks from Partisans would be discovered and repaired quickly, particularly when every replacement, every kilo of supply, every liter of fuel and every box of ammunition is traveling along a single set of tracks that's ultimately feeding entire Army Groups. As soon as the first supply train or troop train happens upon the demolished section of track, the construction engineers are going to be on it like a bad smell on a dog pile.

Worst case, the fix for a crater in the middle of a set of tracks means placement of 5 or 6 cubic meters of gravel into a hole; Followed by Replacement of a few sleepers and replacement of a couple of rail sections. All of these materials can be quickly and efficiently transported to the localized sections of track damage by trains and rolling stock converging upon the break from either side of a break. Filling a crater and replacing a few sleepers and rails is a construction operation that requires hour’s worth of labor -- not weeks. In terms of great military engineering feats, repairing a crater in the middle of a rail road track is like snapping ones fingers. Bridging the Dnepr or Dvina; or placing a level 1 or 2 fort in a hex with all the associated bunkers, dugouts, minefields, weapons pits is measured in terms of a few movement points being expended over the course of a single game turn. However, the current system of rear area track demolition results in a break that can’t be repaired for multiple turns.

I don’t think the effects of rear area track damage from very early war Partisan attacks have really been adequately play tested. The implication of Partisan track damage, as I indicated above, is really a two to four turn complete loss in track function. No rail movement or supply passage through the damaged track hexes can occur during this month long effort in trying to get the proper units back to repair breaks. Like I said above, to get the tracks functioning again means a mobile FBD unit has to march back to the damaged track sections slowly on foot; than it needs to repair the damaged section.

In addition, the Partisan damaged rail sections are requiring that the FBD Unit expend a full 3 movement points to repair each hex (assuming it’s a break along Russian or Ukrainian gauge track). This is followed by the FBD unit having to march back to the forward railhead to commence with rail road gauge widening work again. The full 3 movement point’s repair expenditure by FBD units to reconstitute a partisan damaged rail hex represents the same MP expenditure required by the FBD unit to transform track gauge over an entire ten mile stretch of track – as well as gauge conversion of all of the side tracking within that ten mile hex area. In addition, the 3 movement point cost for gauge conversion would also encompasses much of the ballast section and subgrade improvements conducted by German Rail Road Construction engineers of Soviet rail lines in order to increase track support for the larger tonnages the Germans were typically employing with their locomotives and rolling stock. Why is this same 3 MP cost associated with repairing a Partisan damaged rail hex?

Partisan damage reflects a few localized track section breaks therefore the FBD movement point cost for repairing partisan damage should be directly correlated to the level of track damage inflicted upon the tracks. If a ten mile section of track is only damaged 10% by a partisan attack, than perhaps a realistic track repair cost would be the mere passage of an FBD unit through the damaged track hex -- zero additional MPs beyond the terrain cost of the hex itself. Or charge the FBD repair cost a nominal 1-MP to repair.

I would suggest that damaged tracks from partisan attacks only temporarily increase RR movement costs through damaged hexes as well as temporarily reduce the amount of supply tonnage that passes through damaged tracks. The amount of movement point costs and supply tonnage decrease should be directly correlated to the level of damage to the track hex rather than a complete loss of functionality of an entire section of track. Again we are talking about a few localized breaks over a ten mile section. These would be repaired rather quickly. So the delay resultant should be measured in terms of movement point penalties rather than complete loss of track function for weeks at a time.

Given the sometimes unconstructive climate and sensitivity of some posters on this forum, doubtless much of the above will earn me the lable of Nazi Fanboy. So be it. It’s not going to stop me from expressing an opinion about potential issues.

< Message edited by kswanson1 -- 4/30/2011 2:37:54 PM >

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 8:22:44 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

Not to belabor this, ...

Well, I will belabor it for you then

I am now running 1.04.14. It is Feb 42. I just had a single partisan unit pop up. Associated with that single pop-up were ten (10) breaks in three lateral lines and two main lines which disabled 57 rail hexes and isolated three FDB units, none of which is able to reach a break. This isolated all of AG North and about a third of AG Center.

There were nine other partisan units as well, but none of them were able to break both a main line and enough laterals to isolate a section of front. I basically have every main line for a depth of 20 hexes (five units worth) covered by security units on the rails. The major break began 27 hexes from the front and spread from there.

This is getting a bit irritating.

EDIT: Note that no city has ever been red due to lack of garrison and very few have been yellow for long. The partisan plague is not due to insufficient garrisons

< Message edited by pompack -- 4/29/2011 8:24:42 PM >

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 9:07:13 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
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Status: offline 		We need an Option to switch partisan attacks off, at least until the developers can really focus on a full overhaul for that feature. I just started a GC vs the AI to test the new beta but can't really do that with crazy partisan units running about.

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 10:24:38 PM   
Lieste

 

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Status: offline 		Actually worst case for a 'break' is not a few tonnes of gravel, but several thousand tonnes of derailed rolling stock, or a dropped span of a bridge. Neither is easy to fix - moving large numbers of damaged or destroyed wagons and locomotives will require many men or heavy equipment. Bridge replacement can take days/weeks once materials are on hand.

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 10:37:42 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		It would be useful to have some high level stats on how many major partisan rail/road attacks occurred historically, when and their effect, just to benchmark roughly against the game. Does anyone have such?

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 11:12:55 PM   
kswanson1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Actually worst case for a 'break' is not a few tonnes of gravel, but several thousand tonnes of derailed rolling stock, or a dropped span of a bridge. Neither is easy to fix - moving large numbers of damaged or destroyed wagons and locomotives will require many men or heavy equipment. Bridge replacement can take days/weeks once materials are on hand.


Granted derailing locomotive and associated wagons is a more serious event. But RR cranes actually deal with such disasters routinely -- and they are mounted on rail cars so could be relied upon to approach the given disaster from either side of the problem via undamaged tracks. A RR crane is designed specifically to pick the sorts of loads associated with derailed locomotives or associated rolling stock. The nature of the repair or track clearing isn't something that delays strategic movement over the course of weeks. The Pick of even a locomotive occurs over the period of hours not weeks. And as we are talking about a single rail line that is of the utmost strategic importance in terms of supplying an entire Army Group, such equipment would be readily available in order to deal with derailment issues quickly and restablish movement along this ONE very important track.

Regarding Bridges, while I am not aware of any track that span rivers falling victim to the personal hell I am experiencing with the new WiTE partisan warfare, the only way to effectively put a long term hit on this sort of robust structure in reality is to destroy the abutments and bent supports. Both of which would typically be relying upon an extensive foundation system and huge concrete pile caps due to the loads being carried by the bridge spans. Neither of these elements is "easily" destroyed by a few pounds of explosive. We’re talking hundreds of pounds of explosive to be able to make dents in the like. I think the logistics associated with such a demolition would likely be beyond the means of a typical partisan band. That is unless they are operating out of swamps and forests with 18-wheelers packed with dynamite. Military bridge demolition is typically focused on the spans rather than the bent foundations and abutments. They are easy targets for explosives. But by the same token, the actual spans can be quickly repaired. Again the rather heavy materials required for the repair are easily transported almost right to the point of the demolition by use of the undamaged tracks on either side of the damaged bridge. This to include either heavy steel I-beam\trusses or heavy timber elements for reconstruction of damaged bridge trusses. Trusses or spanning elements were often prefabricated sections which could be puzzled together on the work site quickly. Certainly these sorts of repairs could be completed and functioning in terms of movement points expended within a given turn rather than complete loss of rail roads or RR bridges that require multiple game turns to put back into operation.

But having rambled on about this, I would be interested in historical examples of Partisan bands\gaggles completely obliterating heavy steel or concrete RR bridge structures and the associated time required for repair of the like.

Conversely repair times required by combat engineers\pioneers of bridges (both road and rail bridges) that were destroyed by opposing combat engineers is available. Read into the above, the level of destruction of a strategically important RR bridge by a band of free wheeling Partisans is unlikely to be of the same order of magnitude as what would be accomplished by combat engineers or pioneers when tasked with the same.

Sorry, but being a civil engineer by profession and having actually designed RR bedding and bridge foundations for a variety of different subgrade conditions, perhaps I have more faith in the ability of combat engineers to rapidly deal with these sorts of issues.


< Message edited by kswanson1 -- 4/30/2011 3:50:55 AM >

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 11:32:37 PM   
kswanson1

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 3/25/2011
Status: offline 		The aspect of Liestes post that is of interest is the possibility that Partisan warfare within the game should be given the ability to reduce Axis rail capacity to reflect destruction of locomotives and rolling stock.

And while we are at it, there is a fair bit of historical evidence of Partisans targeting supply lorries. Perhaps depending upon the numbers of active Partisan units present on the map at any one time, there should be a resultant increase in the attrition rates for the German supply truck pool. 

But hopefully either suggestion would be crept up upon in steps rather than tsunami'd in one swoop.  And that the incremental steps be play tested by both the AI and by Human vs. Human to determine long term effects upon the game. 

< Message edited by kswanson1 -- 4/30/2011 3:29:48 AM >

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RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/29/2011 11:54:57 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline 		OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply.

The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break.

< Message edited by pompack -- 4/29/2011 11:56:21 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/30/2011 12:21:56 AM   
Aditia

 

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Status: offline 		May I urge the devs to run a few tests with the 43-45 campaign. In v1.03 partisan attacks in that scenario came very close to putting most of AGC out of supply while I was dilligently garrissoning and hunting partisans.

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Post #: 24
RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/30/2011 3:43:45 AM   
kswanson1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply.

The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break.


Agreed. You have hit one of the issues right on the head. And this issue and its implications doesnt become apparent until you are actually faced with it in game. Allow repair to occur from both sides of the break. It's not like there wouldn't be locomotives and rolling stock available on both sides of a break that could rapidly transport rail road repair crews, their equipment and construction materials to the break points.

I'm facing the same issue in two of my PBEMs and am seriously considering resigning. I don't want to as I have invested a huge amount of time into both games. I also dont want to leave my opponents hanging. hmmm...

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 25
RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/30/2011 7:57:18 AM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
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Status: offline 		A genuine expert! Great to have those details and that perspective. I would just add the point, in support of kswanson1, that bridges in particular were heavily guarded and most attacks were therefore against unprotected stretches of track.

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(in reply to kswanson1)
Post #: 26
RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/30/2011 8:04:49 AM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kswanson1


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply.

The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break.


Agreed. You have hit one of the issues right on the head. And this issue and its implications doesnt become apparent until you are actually faced with it in game. Allow repair to occur from both sides of the break. It's not like there wouldn't be locomotives and rolling stock available on both sides of a break that could rapidly transport rail road repair crews, their equipment and construction materials to the break points.

I'm facing the same issue in two of my PBEMs and am seriously considering resigning. I don't want to as I have invested a huge amount of time into both games. I also dont want to leave my opponents hanging. hmmm...


I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing.

Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity.

Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime.

Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant.

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(in reply to kswanson1)
Post #: 27
RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/30/2011 11:25:29 AM   
Vorsteher


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quote:

EDIT: Note that no city has ever been red due to lack of garrison and very few have been yellow for long. The partisan plague is not due to insufficient garrisons

This is full correct. In my scenario PBEM, the partisans attack my rails in the fourth turn.
It costs me the victory.


< Message edited by Vorsteher -- 4/30/2011 11:26:36 AM >

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Post #: 28
RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 4/30/2011 8:37:00 PM   
Wild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: kswanson1


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply.

The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break.


Agreed. You have hit one of the issues right on the head. And this issue and its implications doesnt become apparent until you are actually faced with it in game. Allow repair to occur from both sides of the break. It's not like there wouldn't be locomotives and rolling stock available on both sides of a break that could rapidly transport rail road repair crews, their equipment and construction materials to the break points.

I'm facing the same issue in two of my PBEMs and am seriously considering resigning. I don't want to as I have invested a huge amount of time into both games. I also dont want to leave my opponents hanging. hmmm...


I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing.

Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity.

Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime.

Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant.


I am tempted to agree with Redmarkus on this.

Being a supporter of historicity in the game it is not easy, but what he say's makes sense.

After all, who wants to spend the game chasing partisans around, and a break in your main rail line completely takes the focus off your offensive to something i'm sure most people are not interested in (chasing partisans and restoring supply).

I can see this turning off many people and being a detriment to the game overall as people will get frustrated and quit playing.
Which will hurt sales of the planned upcoming War in the West and War in North Afrika. Thereby putting in danger of my dream game War in Europe.

I am coming to the conclusion that we must have some abstraction to keep the game fun, for the good of the overall planned project.



(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 29
RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 - 5/1/2011 12:32:21 AM   
AKCLIMBER

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 11/22/2010
From: Juneau, Alaska
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

Regarding Bridges, while I am not aware of any track that span rivers falling victim to the personal hell I am experiencing with the new WiTE partisan warfare, the only way to effectively put a long term hit on this sort of robust structure in reality is to destroy the abutments and bent supports. Both of which would typically be relying upon an extensive foundation system and huge concrete pile caps due to the loads being carried by the bridge spans. Neither of these elements is "easily" destroyed by a few pounds of explosive. We’re talking hundreds of pounds of explosive to be able to make dents in the like. I think the logistics associated with such a demolition would likely be beyond the means of a typical partisan band. That is unless they are operating out of swamps and forests with 18-wheelers packed with dynamite. Military bridge demolition is typically focused on the spans rather than the bent foundations and abutments. They are easy targets for explosives. But by the same token, the actual spans can be quickly repaired. Again the rather heavy materials required for the repair are easily transported almost right to the point of the demolition by use of the undamaged tracks on either side of the damaged bridge. This to include either heavy steel I-beam\trusses or heavy timber elements for reconstruction of damaged bridge trusses. Trusses or spanning elements were often prefabricated sections which could be puzzled together on the work site quickly. Certainly these sorts of repairs could be completed and functioning in terms of movement points expended within a given turn rather than complete loss of rail roads or RR bridges that require multiple game turns to put back into operation.

But having rambled on about this, I would be interested in historical examples of Partisan bands\gaggles completely obliterating heavy steel or concrete RR bridge structures and the associated time required for repair of the like.


Found the quotes below in a US Army publication: The Soviet Partisan Movement 1941-1944, publication no. 20-244, dated 1956, link here:

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/p4013coll9&CISOPTR=165&filename=166.pdf

Discussing operations in early 1943, the partisans still not close to having reached their peak strength/effectiveness, "...struck rather sharply at rail bridges [in addition to striking rail lines, etc.]. During February [1943] they successfully damaged or destroyed 12 behind the Sixteenth Army, and in March in the Bryansk area on orders from the Central Staff attacked 5 in force (4 of them important ones) and successfully blew 3, one the span over the Desna River at Wygonitschi on the Bryansk-Gomel line."

However, the publication also points out that "[a]lthough these attacks [in early 1943] interfered with the supply of the forward units for a time and at one point temporarily delayed the arrival of replacements, their over-all effect on the situation at the front was negligible."

Reading further (a pretty interesting topic I had never before explored), it's apparent that partisan activities and effectiveness only increased with time.

That said, I'd be happy with a further abstraction of partisan effects and countermeasures.

Cheers!

(in reply to kswanson1)
Post #: 30
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