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Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/1/2011 2:38:05 AM

Yoozernamemember

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I have read some startling misinformation regarding firing LATW (bazooka, Panzerfaust, etc.) from within buildings. I won't name names but I am sure most people hear the claim 'it's overpressure'. That is BS.

Please review the following comparison of German rocket fired LATW ('shreck) and Faust weapons:

Specs - Panzerfaust 30:
Length: 1045mm Weight: 5100gr. Tube Diameter: 44mm.
Warhead Diameter: 140mm.
Warhead Load: 800g TNT/Thc.
Warhead Length: 495mm.
Warhead Weight: 2900gr.
Warhead Velocity: 30m/s.
Armor Penetration @ 90 degrees: 200mm.
Propellant Load: 95g Black powder.
Effective Range: 30m.

Specs - Panzerfaust 60:
Length: 1045mm Weight: 6100gr. Tube Diameter: 50mm.
Warhead Diameter: 140mm.
Warhead Load: 800g TNT/Thc.
Warhead Length: 495mm.
Warhead Weight: 2900gr.
Warhead Velocity: 45 m/s.
Armor Penetration @ 90 degrees: 200mm.
Propellant Load: 134g Black powder.
Effective Range: 60m.

KE=1/2mv^2

0.5*2.9*45*45=2936

Name: Raketenpanzerb�chse, AKA Panzerschreck
Type: Anti-tank rocket launcher
Caliber: 88 mm
Weight: 9,5 kg
Rocket weight: 3,25 kg
Barrel length: 1,35 m
Range: 180 meters
Muzzle velocity: 110 m/sec
Armour penetration: 230 mm

KE=0.5*3.250*110*110=19663

I am comparing the kinetic energy of the warheads fired by a PF60 and a Panzershreck. Its about 6.7 times the kinetic energy for the shreck than a panzerfaust.

The two weapons differ in propulsion in that a rocket motor will shoot nearly all its thrust backward before leaving the tube. The panzerfaust, which is really a primitive smootbore recoiless rifle of sorts, will blast the charge backwards, but the release of pressure is also directed forward once the projectile leaves the end of the weapon. So if both weapons are used by protruding the end out of the window of a house, the rocket type weapon will introduce further energy into the room.

The size of the room and the amount of windows, holes in walls and open doors also plays into it. But 'overpressure' from a panzerfaust? I don't think so. Think of a panzerfaust like a very big old muzzle-loading elephant gun that a large man has decided to discharge inside a room without a bullet. I would not want to fire a shreck nor a M72 law or any rocket inside a building without a blown out cieling or multiple windows, etc. But a PF30? No problem.

< Message edited by Yoozernamemember -- 5/2/2011 1:10:01 AM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/1/2011 3:35:43 AM

Mobius

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Singling bazooka shot

Attachment (1)

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/1/2011 5:24:21 AM

Yoozernamemember

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That 'attic' area is, for all intents, just open air. No real back-blast issues at all. An issue with firing LATW from 'higher' elevations to short-ranged lower targets is that most troops would not have trained on it. It would actually extend the range quite well. A top hit on an AFV could be possible. But retribution fire would certainly be coming since the firing would give you away.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/1/2011 5:28:43 AM

Yoozernamemember

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http://trizna.ru/galerea/albums/userpics/Panzerfaust_30_klein.pdf

The 'Klein' could easily be fired within a building as in room-to-room fighting.

edit: Funny, but the 'Burns' bazooka looks like a panzerfaust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YjXFOV6Nwk&feature=related

< Message edited by Yoozernamemember -- 5/1/2011 5:35:53 AM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 12:09:39 AM

Yoozernamemember

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http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/recoilless.htm

quote:

Since the end of World War II, the US Army has conducted extensive testing on the effects of firing recoilless weapons from within enclosures. Beginning as early as 1948, tests have been conducted on every type of recoilless weapon available. In 1975, the US Army Human Engineering Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland, conducted extensive firing of the LAW, Dragon, and TOW from masonry and frame buildings, and from sandbag bunkers.

Firing these weapons from enclosures presented no serious hazards, even when the overpressure was enough to produce structural damage to the building. Little hazard exists to the gunnery or crew from any type of flying debris. Loose items were not hurled around the room. No substantial degradation occurs to the operator's tracking performance as a result of obscuration or blast overpressure.

The most serious hazard that can be expected is hearing loss. This must be evaluated against the advantage gained in combat from firing from cover. To place this hazard in perspective, a gunner wearing earplugs and firing the loudest combination (the Dragon from within a masonry building) is exposed to less noise hazard than if he fired a LAW in the open without earplugs.

The safest place for other soldiers in the room with the shooter is against the wall from which the weapon is fired. Firers should take advantage of all available sources of ventilation by opening doors and windows. Ventilation does not reduce the noise hazard, but it helps clear the room of smoke and dust, and reduces the effective duration of the overpressure.

The only difference between firing these weapons from enclosures and firing them in the open is the duration of the pressure fluctuation. Frame buildings, especially small ones, can suffer structural damage to the rear walls, windows, and doors. Large rooms suffer slight damage, if any. Recoilless weapons fired from within enclosures create some obscuration inside the room, but almost none from the gunner's position looking out. Inside the room, obscuration can be intense, but the room remains inhabitable.

The Dragon causes the most structural damage, but only in frame buildings. There does not seem to be any threat of injury to the gunner, since the damage is usually to the walls away from the gunner. The most damage and debris is from flying plaster chips and pieces of wood trim. Large chunks of plasterboard can be dislodged from ceilings. The backblast from the AT4, Dragon, or TOW rarely displaces furniture.

While the results of the tests may have shown that the threat of injury from debris is rare, commanders must ensure that proper safety precautions are followed prior to firing weapons inside a room.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 4:18:43 AM

Mad Russian

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That's a GREAT report. Possibly the best post I've ever seen you give us.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/2/2011 4:23:17 AM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 4:45:53 AM

Yoozernamemember

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I have been around and fired LAW. Its LOUD. But I am also an engineer and know BS when I hear it. It is obvious that the 1:1 boys are being fed BS.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 5:11:10 AM

Mad Russian

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I fired the LAW and was around both the TOW and Dragon ATGW systems as well.

In any case, that was a post I can use. Thanks.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 5:14:37 AM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozernamemember

I have been around and fired LAW. Its LOUD.

The discharge of the weapon, or its detonation?

quote:

But I am also an engineer and know BS when I hear it.

Damn, Pugsley, a few dozen posts back you were a "cartographer."

quote:

I was an army cartographer and the lay of the land is not random.

You can claim to be all the things and all the different folks that you wish to be, but don't expect your readers to ignore the routine inconsistencies.

quote:

It is obvious that the 1:1 boys�are being fed BS.

Ah, great, another BS thread.

< Message edited by Prince of Eckm�hl -- 5/2/2011 5:15:16 AM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 5:37:59 AM

Yoozernamemember

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Ok troll.� Read the rules.� Where is your anti-semetic buddy HELLMANN?

edit: oh yeah, a couple years in the service might have done you some good!

< Message edited by Yoozernamemember -- 5/2/2011 5:38:47 AM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 5:40:50 AM

Mobius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I fired the LAW and was around both the TOW and Dragon ATGW systems as well.

I worked for the company the built the TOW. Oh, never mind TMI.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 5:44:08 AM

Yoozernamemember

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I just hate to see the truth of matters being over-run by civvie-revisionists.� I suppose the 1:1 'guys' and the die-hard fanbois have the new-skinny.

Edit: POE new name is MUTTSLY.

I was an Army Engineer 81c20 NCO

Any serviceman is trained in weapons. The fact that PRINCE OF MUTTSLY is ignorant of a army life just furthers my impression that he is a shut-in.

I have carried and fired M16, M60, M203, LAW and thrown real grenades. I served with Vietnam Veteran NCOs. I served with combat veteran Engineers.

I have worked with military contractors and driven and designed around tracked vehicles. I have been to quite a few military bases.

I know that many wargamers are just posers. The internet has given the cowards amongst them a springboard into fantasy land.

In no way does my interest in this hobby associate me with cartoon-boys or shut-ins like MUTTSLY.

edit: oh yeah, claymore...very loud

< Message edited by Yoozernamemember -- 5/2/2011 6:13:53 AM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 6:18:29 AM

Yoozernamemember

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I have reported the troll Prince of Eckmuhl as well as the anti-semite Hellman 'character'. Its obvious that these posters are on some obsessive mission to derail any conversation. I look forward to some action on the part of the Rutins.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 6:21:29 AM

Yoozernamemember

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I knew a guy that was a dragon gunner. He said that they used earplugs not just for hearing protection but also for concentration on the target. Supposedly a difficult weapon system to master.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 7:04:47 AM

Mad Russian

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The Dragon was hard to control. I understand it would rise as it flew towards the target instead of flying straight.

So Mobius, did you get to fire a TOW?

It's not outside the realm of possibilities to see PC evolve into modern combat. Or 1939, or some jungle settings....I could go on and on....

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/2/2011 7:05:35 AM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 6:10:39 PM

Yoozernamemember

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I have come across a few accounts of LATW being used to 'mousehole' through building walls.� Including rowhouses so that the streets can be avoided.� The accounts include US use of bazooka, US use of panzerfaust, German use of panzerfaust and soviet use of panzerfaust.

Edit: To be clear, the LATW are fired intra-building not from the outisde.

< Message edited by Yoozernamemember -- 5/2/2011 7:45:58 PM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/2/2011 6:42:33 PM

Mobius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
So Mobius, did you get to fire a TOW?

No. I just did programming for the company. It was a long time ago. We did get to see actual combat film of them hitting various targets but it was the IDF using them.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/4/2011 3:25:26 PM

Chad Harrison

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozernamemember

It is obvious that the 1:1 boys�are being fed BS.

Whats with the constant harassment here towards BFC?

I play and enjoy both BFC and Matrix games. Dont see why it has to be so many 'they suck and were awesome' comments here. Its no different than listening to pimple faced 12 year old argue whether the XBOX or Play Station is better.

Chad

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/4/2011 3:46:20 PM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozernamemember

It is obvious that the 1:1 boys�are being fed BS.

Whats with the constant harassment here towards BFC?

I play and enjoy both BFC and Matrix games. Dont see why it has to be so many 'they suck and were awesome' comments here. Its no different than listening to pimple faced 12 year old argue whether the XBOX or Play Station is better.

Chad

+1

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/4/2011 7:43:01 PM

Erik Rutins

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Prince of Eckmuhl,

I warned earlier about bringing past issues into this forum. Hellman and Yoozername were warned, now you are warned. While there may be a history that justifies that post in your eyes, it doesn't matter as far as our forum rules are concerned. Trolling posts and making personal attacks gets you a warning and if repeated, a ban.

Yoozernamemember,

You were already warned in the previous exchange with Hellman. Reporting the post is fine and good, but going on the counter attack is not, it just multiplies the initial problem. Personal attacks, even in response to a trolling post, are not ok here. I'm giving you a two week vacation from the forum to consider our rules. If you feel you can follow them in the future, e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com in two weeks and your access will be restored.

I'll also reiterate to everyone that constructive and civil discussions to share our interest in gaming is the purpose of these forums.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/28/2011 6:01:06 AM

Yoozername

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For what it's worth, I believe the 'other PF30' modelers have reconsidered thier stance regarding firing within cover.

An odd effect of these close range weapons is that with a few sprints, a firerer could change from a frontal shot to a side shot.

Also, if they truly fired at such close ranges, they were 'accurate'. They would hit some part of the AFV target and it would have some effect.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/28/2011 6:41:06 AM

Mad Russian

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I've seen battle reports where PF missed as close as 5 meters away. Not once but twice.

The firers didn't get another chance.

You would think that's an anomaly but when you think of who some of these firers were it's not hard to imagine that they missed. They were often old men and boys and I can easily see how getting within 5 meters of an enemy tank could make you nervous your first time.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/28/2011 6:58:48 AM

Yoozername

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Are you saying that someone 5 meters away from an enemy AFV missed once, grabbed another PF (I suppose it doesn't matter what version?) and missed again?

Can you post a link or reference?

Edit: Who did the battle report? Seems like everyone might be dead??

Edit: This thread is about firing from buildings? Did your report fire from buildings??

< Message edited by Yoozername -- 5/28/2011 7:17:04 AM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/28/2011 1:04:36 PM

apd1004

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I did a combat tour in Afghanistan as an embedded advisor to the Afghan National Army. Part of my training was to fire the RPG-7, and I have seen it fired many times. There was at least one instance where a soldier was killed by backblast from an RPG but he was standing right behind the thing when they fired it. As Yoozer says above, it is extremely LOUD when first fired, but the interesting thing is that the big bang it makes when it fires is not that bad for the firer because it is all being directed to the rear. Still, we wore earmuffs when we fired the RPG-7. There is an explosive charge that goes off when the weapon is fired that serves to eject the warhead from the weapon and get it far enough from the firer before the rocket motor fires. I would say that most rocket-propelled LATW use that principle, the PIAT being an exception. There is debris and a blast that come out the back end of a rocket-propelled weapon, but it is only really dangerous within a few feet directly behind the launcher, thus allowing it to be fired from within buildings. I would not want to fire that thing from an enclosed space with no hearing protection, but I suppose hearing loss is better than taking a tank round in the chest.

One of the things people don't realize about unguided rocket-propelled munitions (i.e., most LATW) is that these weapons deploy fins as a means of flight-stabilizing the warhead after leaving the launcher. This becomes problematic in a crosswind situation because while the rocket motor is still burning, any crosswind will deflect the fins and actually carry the projectile into the wind. I have no idea if that fact was understood by the folks firing those weapons back in WWII because those weapons were in their infancy, but I can tell you it is still not completely understood by firers of those weapons even today. That is why given the large numbers of insurgent RPG's fired at coalition vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan over the years, the actual numbers of direct hits on vehicles where the warhead functioned as intended is extremely low.

The natural tendancy of anyone firing a weapon at a target is to aim center of mass and fire. If you do that with a rocket-propelled weapon and there is any type of crosswind, you will surely miss because the rocket will go the opposite way from where you think it will go and either go too far in front or go behind the target. It becomes even more difficult when trying to hit a moving target where you also have to apply lead. In a combat situation, I would say that the firers ability to take this into account makes the likelihood of a hit even lower. Obviously, the closer you are to a target, the better your chances are of hitting it with any weapon, but even at close ranges you are not guaranteed a hit with an unguided rocket-propelled weapon in a crosswind.

As far as the PF 5m miss twice, I am a bit sceptical about that story but also remember that the original version of the panzerfaust had no sights. The RPG-7 has sights but it is damn difficult to hit where you aim. If you never fired the weapon before, you are possibly being shot at, knew nothing about how rockets work, and it had no sights, how do you aim the thing accurately? Without the reference there are a lot of unknown factors to the story, but anything can happen in combat, and it usually does.

< Message edited by apd1004 -- 5/28/2011 1:12:58 PM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/28/2011 3:05:08 PM

Commanderski

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I was watching the History Channel some time ago, their tank battle series, which is mainly on the Western Front. A Sherman tank commander did tell the story about 2 German Army officers who pulled Panzerfausts out from behind their great coats at about 15 feet and both missed. He said he didn't give them the chance to try again...

If you never fired one before, being that close and being in a hurry it's probably possible to miss. We can't say what the reasons may be for sure because we weren't there and wouldn't want to be.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/28/2011 3:09:46 PM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Are you saying that someone 5 meters away from an enemy AFV missed once, grabbed another PF (I suppose it doesn't matter what version?) and missed again?

No, two firers standing next to each other. They both fired and they both missed.

Don't know the version. It was late in the war.

quote:

Can you post a link or reference?

I read it recently but I'm not sure what book it's in at the moment. I've done a LOT of research for a possible upcoming expansion and I don't remember which book I read it in.

quote:

Edit: Who did the battle report? Seems like everyone might be dead??

It was a Russian account. And yes the Germans were killed by the tank's main gun after they missed. The Russians were amazed that they were missed at that range TWICE. They didn't let them try for a third time.

quote:

Edit: This thread is about firing from buildings? Did your report fire from buildings??

Your post #21 didn't say anything about accuracy when firing from a building so I included that story of the misses.

These guys were in a building to start with and ran out along side the road and fired. It struck me and the guy telling the story that they could both miss at such a close range.

I'll see if I can relocate the text. It would be something interesting for the rest of you to read as well.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/28/2011 3:11:07 PM >

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/28/2011 4:10:59 PM

Mobius

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BTW, spaced armor can defeat HEAT warheads. At least WWII bazooka HEAT warheads.

http://www.100thww2.org/support/776tankhits.html

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/28/2011 4:44:01 PM

Yoozername

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Yes, I have read that report quite a few times. I would conclude that sloped armor also gave the US bazooka weapon trouble. The rockets did not have an effective fuze and would glance off the target.

It seems that the hits on the running gear and jack and other parts has destroyed the cone before the charge has been able to form a jet. The description of the hits seem to describe odd shaped holes that are not consistant with HEAT type explosions. In other words, the overlapping panther/tiger running gear acted as 'bazooka-shields'. The bazooka really needs to hit a hard vertical target to get the fuze to work.

Too bad the turret sides did not have tracks on them. It would be interesting to know how this would effect the rockets. The one track hit on a bolt between individual track links did not seem very effective.

I have read a ordanance report that bazooka rockets were modified in normandy depots so that they would detonate on hedgerows. It seems the rockets would hit the hederows and bounce off and not explode.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/29/2011 5:15:11 PM

Yoozername

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http://wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?t=689

The bazooka warheads have a very thin metal nose cone. From this cutaway, the base fuze is just spring loaded and the nose piece must therefore decel the warhead so that the spring can be overcome and the base ignition can do its job. I suspect that flimsy nose piece would crush or pop off.

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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings - 5/29/2011 7:08:37 PM

Joe D.