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Maybe a New AAR - 5/3/2011 2:14:20 AM

PeeDeeAitch

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JAM and I have begun a game. I might decide to do an AAR, as long as folks don't mind one where I end up only at the Dnepr by winter (having destroyed only 1m Soviets). I would call it "how to lose the war" but someone already did that.

I did my 1st turn, and so far before he has moved, all my pockets are holding!

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/3/2011 2:46:53 AM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

JAM and I have begun a game. I might decide to do an AAR, as long as folks don't mind one where I end up only at the Dnepr by winter (having destroyed only 1m Soviets). I would call it "how to lose the war" but someone already did that.

I did my 1st turn, and so far before he has moved, all my pockets are holding!

Please do the AAR. It will be really interesting to see JAM's response to what you revealed in the last AAR.

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/3/2011 2:52:36 AM

TulliusDetritus

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JAM is Jamian? I think he is an excellent player so that would be a great AAR: we all could learn from it

So please go ahead

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/3/2011 4:07:41 AM

PeeDeeAitch

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If I do, JAMiAM will be allowed in, of course. I don't mind, since I am usually so far behind the only intelligence that can be gathered is my lack thereof!

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"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 4

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/3/2011 4:18:22 AM

PeeDeeAitch

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A teaser. The North.

I did my normal "forget strategy and run about aimlessly" that has become the hallmark of my Turn 1 maneuvers. Oddly enough I found myself across the Dvina. One hold at Riga almost made me decide to give up and become a pacifist, but I girded my loins (whatever the hell that is, all I know is that Dante did it in Hell), and plunged on. At least the Dvina is once again firmly in the control of the Teutonic Knights.

My basic plan here is to run amok, in the tradition of Southeast Asia, until I hit something.

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"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 5

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/3/2011 12:30:22 PM

Keunert

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looking forward to this. your last one was very interesting.

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/3/2011 1:15:50 PM

Speedysteve

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Good luck. JAMiAM and me have a tester game on-going with him as Axis. Will be interesting to see how he goes with him as the SU

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/3/2011 11:38:19 PM

PeeDeeAitch

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Turn 1 - the Center.

As the center is in the middle, it is the proper place to post the 2nd screenshot. The Germans did the basic "Rush forward and encircle everything, then pray" strategy. I kept AGC quite strong in tanks, as I see the campaign as a small version of what I like to do for an operations movement - a deep penetration with the armor and exploit left or right after that. 1 corps did go to AGS, but the XIV corps that does not move on turn 1 will join the fun in the center.

Lots of smashing, the Bialystok pocket should hold, and effectively the entire 3rd Panzer Group north of Minsk should give a pause to the defenders. Turns 1 and 2 are the time to make hay in the center, so I plan to drive deep the 2nd turn as well.

Here is the picture - note that as much of the routing was tried to go further into the pocket, but I don't mind if some gets missed. C'est la guerre.

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_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

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Post #: 8

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/3/2011 11:45:11 PM

PeeDeeAitch

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The South.

Oh, the south. If there is one place I always screw up, it is in the south. Of course I tried the Lvov pocket, the dash to the Romanian border, with a pinch of C&G thrown in. A couple of holds meant that even the extra panzer corps did not make things as good as I wanted - this one one of the areas I am worried about.

Still, I punched through, got a semblance of a Lvov and Kovel pocket, and then I spin the prayer wheel and hope. Note I practice what I preach, the 17th army pushes hard so that I can have flipped rail hexes on turn 2. Also, I moved forward to take Proskurov in the hopes of breaking the souther part of the Stalin line for next turn's movement.

One thing I have noticed. If the first two turns in the south do not go as far, then on turn 3 there is still a fair amount of gas in the tank. Depending on what JAMiAM does, I can either try to exploit deep or encircle turn 2.

We shall see. I expect, actually, to have to re-establish the pocket...

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_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/6/2011 12:22:08 AM

JAMiAM

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Just to show my face in the thread...Turn one, PDH did an excellent job running amok, and left me little possibility to break the Lvov pocket. I *might* have been able to do so, but it would have taken an extremely lucky break and sending the 2nd Mech Corps to (X63, Y94) to attack the 14th Pz Division.

I could have reached the hex with 6, 7, and 8 MPs remaining, which would have allowed possibly two hasty attacks against the unit. However, that would have left them exposed for turn 2, and easily encircled. So, I drew them back to backstop the line between the Ushitsa River and Vinnitsa, so PDH wouldn't try a run down to Odessa through the open terrain between the Ushitsa and Yuzhny Bug Rivers.

The Lvov pocket was instructed to maximize its contact with the enemy and radius of control, in hopes of holding out until it could be relieved.

In the Center, the Bialystok pocket likewise was ordered to maximize contact and controlled space, but there would be no hope of relieving them, contrary to the dispatches sent to the local NKVD commanders. A screen was set up from Minsk, south to the Pripyet Marshes, to forestall any drive on the Upper Dnepr and Gomel. The Smolensk landbridge had some units stretching from Vitebsk to the Upper Dneper bend, but there are not enough troops to defend in any depth at this time.

In the North, a light screen is thrown up in the Baltics, and the 27th Army is tasked with digging in along the Velkaya River to stop the rampaging Huns at Pskov.

Turn is passed to PDH.

Note, that there is a turn delay here in reporting. I have actually finished turn two, with even more excitement to come! I can barely contain myself...

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/6/2011 8:52:56 AM

Speedysteve

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Just hurry up and get my turn done darn it

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Post #: 11

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/6/2011 1:20:37 PM

PeeDeeAitch

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Turn 2 is in some ways the turn I dislike the most as the Axis. There is a balancing act between pocket reduction and movement, and you can analyze yourself to death. I return to my goals, which is to create chaos for the Soviets, as my standby.

Playing it safe is not a great option, and all along the front the Soviets have positions ready made with woods, rivers, or pre-made defenses. I opted for speed, with a twist.

Here is the north. The 4th Panzer lunges toward Pskov, and manages to cross the river. The problem, that is no pocket in the rear, that is a trap. I know this, but I also know the tanks are gassed on turn 3 - my solution is to move the HQs right up to the front...maybe you have read my posts. JAMiAM would have to respond, even though I already told him I like pixel bait, but I am trying to set up things down the road...

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_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/6/2011 1:24:48 PM

PeeDeeAitch

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Center 2

Much of the same. I reduce the Bialystok pocket - you might have wondered why I penetrated it with the 9th and 4th armies on turn one, that was to ensure full reduction turn two with minimum use of infantry. Minsk is surrounded, but only by ZOCs, I expect it to be reconnected.

2nd and 3rd Panzer again lunge forward. The chance to nab Vitebsk is again taken, though 3rd Panzer is out all alone. HQs are moved up, the landbridge has a threat. If anything, this will help draw out some units from the trees and swamps and impenetrable defenses.

Here is the shot - note HQs are again right up amidst the Panzers...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 13

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/6/2011 1:28:27 PM

PeeDeeAitch

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The south.

Here JAMiAM did some damned good work. As he said he didn't even try to break open the pocket. There was one spot I was worried about, and instead the crafty devil decided to set up good defenses. Blast him.

I was stuck with strung out panzers and not much else. Lvov reduction started, Kovel pocket was eliminated, but there seemed to be no way to crack the turn two nut. Instead I gathered my forces and lunged in the center. Here, I figured, I would at least be able to unhinge him. Holds, retreats instead of routs, and misplaying of movements made this into a fiasco.

This was the place where turn 2, my section and JAM's went horribly, horribly wrong...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 14

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/6/2011 1:30:56 PM

PeeDeeAitch

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Losses through my half of turn two.

Note the already higher than previous disabled losses. I suspect one of two things, the new coding seems to be working, or JAMiAM's leaflet campaigns urging my soldiers to take advantage of the hospitals in France and Italy is taking its toll.

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_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 15

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 3:55:23 AM

JAMiAM

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PDH is one of those Axis players who truly "get it" with respect to playing to the Axis strengths in 1941. As his thread in the War Room is titled, it's all about mobility.

Actually, if I might add a bit, it's about the three "M"s. Mobility, Mass, and Momentum. Axis players who master those three devices can put the Soviets on the ropes and achieve historical or better results. Those who can't, don't.

Of course, the wily Soviet player has some tools to try and outfox the Axis. Time, space, and though in the first few turns of the game there never seem to be enough, an abundance of units to throw at the Axis to slow him down.

I had very few good concentrations of force on turn two, so I had to see what I could do in order to counter PDH's extremely aggressive first and second turns. As it turns out, on all three major axes, in his push forward he neglected some territorial conversions, left behind pockets that would prove to be troublesome, and overextended himself on too narrow a penetration. Unfortunately, for me, all I can do is cause some temporary grief, as again, at this stage, I simply do not have adequate concentration of force to contemplate any real counterattacks.

In the North, my numerous air recon flights indicated that not only had he bypassed a pocket of two security regiments, but that they maintained a fairly large area of control (hexes adjacent to themselves) after his end of turn territorial conversion. This left me the potential to expand from within the pocket, and to slice in from without, and counterpocket the entire 4th Pz Group in front of Pskov. I don't hold out any hope of being able to keep them pocketed, nor to counterattack them, but after two turns of hard driving, his Panzers will be running on fumes, and by putting them out of supply at the start of his turn, he will only be able to draw on whatever supplies are left in his HQs.

Wherever possible, I have also tried to engage with an ezoc, each of his stacks. I want to keep his fatigue high, prevent refit benefits, and reduce his ability to move around and concentrate force in attempts to maximize any hasty attacks. I suspect he won't have enough MPs to do much more than to rectify his supply situation, and during my end of turn logistics phase, much of the territory in this pocket will convert back to my side. This will slow down his infantry on their march to reinforce 4th Pz Group.

Another side benefit of this encirclement is that for PDH to maintain operational momentum in this crucial sector on turn 4, he will likely have to use HQ Buildups for the two Pz Korps of 4th Pz Group. In fact, I'm counting on him doing it.

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< Message edited by JAMiAM -- 5/8/2011 4:50:53 AM >

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 3:55:39 AM

JAMiAM

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In the Center, PDH surprised me by driving all the way to Vitebsk and taking it. I expected him to engage the front line of the land bridge, but I didn't think that he would actually take the city. To do this, he ended up leaving Minsk pocketed, and drove both 2nd and 3rd Pz Groups past the city, relying on his railhead coming from out of the Baltic States. His furthest (Axis Damage 1) conversion is at (56,42) which is a long way from the rampaging Panzers, and through a lot of light woods terrain. If I can add some extra MPs to this by ezocs, and encirclements, I can likewise force some early HQ Buildups for him to keep moving forward.

The friendly hex control, and lack of enemy units around Minsk allows my 100th Rifle Division to do a little roundabout and convert several hexes back to my control, potentially slowing third turn movement and supply trace through this area. I am also able to move the 116th Rifle division up far enough to convert an open path, resupplying Minsk. This will make capturing the city on turn three more difficult for him, than it would have been if the 100th had remained unsupplied. It also converts a three hex swath of terrain back to Soviet control, slowing the march of 4th Army's infantry, who are making their way south of Minsk. This may buy an extra turn for the Dnepr line to solidify.

I still have trouble around the landbridge area though, so I need to make trouble back. I am able to swing a Rifle division in behind the XXXIX Pz Korps at Vitebsk. Like my gambit up north, near Pskov, this will cause the Pz Korps to go without replacements, refitting, and require an HQ Buildup on turn 3, to be of any real use on turn 4. The XXXXVII Pz Korps is "tarbabied" west of Orsha with Airborne Brigades and Tank Divisions, while a light screen of units engages the rest of the mobile units with ezocs, to slow any drive to the Southeast. I don't know if 2nd and 3rd Pz Groups are going to continue working in concert, or will split off at this point, so I need to be on my guard against both possibilities. Hopefully, with the problems around Vitebsk and Orsha, this will force his Pz Groups to spend turn 3 repairing his supply situation rather than driving further to any degree.

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< Message edited by JAMiAM -- 5/8/2011 4:17:52 AM >

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 3:55:51 AM

JAMiAM

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In the south, I find some more opportunities to cause grief. Though I had no chance to relieve the Lvov/Carpathian pocket on turn one, extensive air recon showed a gap between Tarnopol and Proskurov that could be converted, so that the trapped Soviets units could be resupplied, albeit only temporarily. It only takes this temporary resupply to make the difference between surrendering, and routing out of pocket though, so it will make PDH have to make some tough choices on his third turn when deciding whether to attack my guys or try to repocket them.

After relieving my pocketed troops, I realized that this had the potential to likewise cause his 1st Pz Group's schwerpunkt some turn 3 supply problems. I tarbabied the entire schwerpunkt with interlocking ezocs, and all the forces I could spare, to still keep some reserves, and struck at the weakest link to force a path open in which to cut three Pz Korps off from their railhead, now coming out of Rumania. Rokossovsky's 9th Mechanized Corps struck three times against the Gross Deutschland Motorized Regiment, without budging it. However, its CV had dropped from 4 to 2, so it was time to send in the real heroes of the Soviet Army, the Rifle Divisions. The 140th and 200th Rifle Divisions, backed by two artillery regiments of the 31st Rifle Corps finally pushed back the GD, allowing a clear path for the 43rd Tank, and 14th Cavalry divisions to link up and splitting away three Pz Korps from their supply path.

Again, the goal here isn't to destroy the Pz Korps, but to throw his timetable off as much as possible. With about half of PDH's mobile forces entering turn 3 without a supply line, he will have a tough set of decisions as to where to focus his HQ Buildups, which will be made necessary to keep the momentum going. Assuming he has about 50 APs, this will be about 4 Pz Korps, give or take.

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< Message edited by JAMiAM -- 5/8/2011 4:39:49 AM >

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 5:20:13 AM

PeeDeeAitch

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Turn 3

Those who have played me and those reading my AARs know I am aggressive. My goal in the first two turns is to get as far as possible then dig in on top of the panzer HQs. In two of my games the center panzers have been cut off, and almost always the Pskov force gets isolated.

However, this is sort of expected, it is why I position as I do, and why I also save up AP on turn 2 - I will need them on turn 3.

As JAMiAM mentioned, he isolated much of my tank forces in the North and Central regions - but I had hit hard and I was not going to be dislodged from my holdings. Instead, trailing units (and though dumb, I am smart enough to have these) can open up line that will be secure. I like to rest on turn 3, and if isolated then I can HQ buildup for turn 4. Come on, I laid it all out in the War Room!

here is the North after my move on turn 3 - note that there is strength across the Velikaya and the mobile units will have near maximum movement turn 4 - this could be a great chance for a wide sweep, even though JAM will see the fuel, turn 4 there is just not enough units to do much.

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"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

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Post #: 19

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 5:26:10 AM

PeeDeeAitch

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Center turn 3

Same story, rinse and repeat. Here the arrival of the XIV Panzer from AGS also strengthens options. The 3rd Panzer should be able to attack along with the arriving infantry followed by the 2nd Panzer massed. The landbridge should be in deep doo doo turn 4.

Here ALL of 3rd and 2nd Panzer (in the region) got buildup - 4 corps. This is one of the moments for me, the time to maneuver while the Soviets are low on units and have a bit of a lull. Often this is the slowdown for the Axis that allows the Soviets to build their massed defenses, but if one strikes hard on turn 4 and 5, then the equilibrium can be broken. If done right, then it really doesn't matter too much what is tried, the still massively strong Germans can beat up in the center.

Here I did expect to have units cut off - I left gaps and unconverted hexes in order to set up my forces for turn 4. I have faith that they will be in supply by the end of turn 3, and I know the best the Soviets can do is not that much more than annoyance. JAM did well here, but the sight of all those gassed up tanks also adds a layer of excitement to his turn 3...

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_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 20

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 5:29:20 AM

PeeDeeAitch

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The South

My god, this was a disappointment. While I expected problems with the 1st Panzer and their drive, I somehow missed completely that the Lvov Pocket would be reached. Pockets are my big problem, though I can make them, they always break down because I am an idiot.

Luckily, turn 2 saw a lot of killing in the Lvov Pocket, and so while this was an annoyance, it wasn't too bad. My plan here was also to rest the southern Panzers, and given the proximity of the railhead I figured on about 35 movment for the tanks on turn 4 - that would be enough to cause some grief. The spearhead was quite a ways east already.

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_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 21

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 5:31:05 AM

PeeDeeAitch

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The 11th Army does not spread out when I play. They remained focused and strong - their goal is to smash east, maybe play a bit on the Black Sea coast, but potentially drive fast enough to lead to an Uman-style pocket if things fall out right. Here you see them driving hard.

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_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 22

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 5:32:33 AM

PeeDeeAitch

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I believed I had set up for a great turn 4. The 4th, 3rd, and 2nd Panzer Groups were all gassed up. The 1st would have fuel in the 30s. A turn of rest, the infantry close, the only thing that could upset the applecart would be hubris.

No chance of the gods striking me down, is there?

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 23

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 6:25:35 AM

Sabre21

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Is this a pbem or server game?

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 6:46:16 AM

cpt flam

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great to see the 2 sides in action
very interresting

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Post #: 25

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 8:39:54 AM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Is this a pbem or server game?

Old-style PBEM, Andy.

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 4:56:13 PM

Klydon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Wherever possible, I have also tried to engage with an ezoc, each of his stacks. I want to keep his fatigue high, prevent refit benefits, and reduce his ability to move around and concentrate force in attempts to maximize any hasty attacks. I suspect he won't have enough MPs to do much more than to rectify his supply situation, and during my end of turn logistics phase, much of the territory in this pocket will convert back to my side. This will slow down his infantry on their march to reinforce 4th Pz Group.

Excellent game and great read for an AAR.

I wanted to point out something JAM mentioned (in bold) about having units next to Axis units to keep fatigue up. This is likely a false ideal as noted by some research I did in a thread in the war room.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2762268

There are other reasons to leave Russian units next to Axis as JAM mentions (no refit, etc) and one thing he didn't mention is while fatigue doesn't seem to matter either way, the amount of damage elements that remain damaged does seem to change between having a unit left next to them or not.

Looking forward to seeing how all this unfolds in future turns.

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RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 6:21:07 PM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Wherever possible, I have also tried to engage with an ezoc, each of his stacks. I want to keep his fatigue high, prevent refit benefits, and reduce his ability to move around and concentrate force in attempts to maximize any hasty attacks. I suspect he won't have enough MPs to do much more than to rectify his supply situation, and during my end of turn logistics phase, much of the territory in this pocket will convert back to my side. This will slow down his infantry on their march to reinforce 4th Pz Group.

Excellent game and great read for an AAR.

I wanted to point out something JAM mentioned (in bold) about having units next to Axis units to keep fatigue up. This is likely a false ideal as noted by some research I did in a thread in the war room.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2762268

There are other reasons to leave Russian units next to Axis as JAM mentions (no refit, etc) and one thing he didn't mention is while fatigue doesn't seem to matter either way, the amount of damage elements that remain damaged does seem to change between having a unit left next to them or not.

Looking forward to seeing how all this unfolds in future turns.

Thanks Klydon. While it may be true that the adjacent units don't directly affect the fatigue level recovery, the extra MPs the tarred units have to spend in moving from/through ezocs, and the attacks necessary (even hasty) to clear the hexes so that other units can more freely move all cause fatigue.

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 28

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/8/2011 6:28:10 PM

Sabre21

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There is also attrition combat that occurs whenever opposing units are adjacent to one another. As James points out though, the tarbaby tactic causing additional mp's is the best reason to do it IMO too.

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Post #: 29

RE: Maybe a New AAR - 5/9/2011 11:13:13 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

As James points out though, the tarbaby tactic causing additional mp's is the best reason to do it IMO too.

I've never understood this argument. If you start next to a German unit, doesn't it cost fewer MP for the German to simply hasty attack your adjacent unit than to enter the unit's ZoC (if it were one hex away), and then attack?

(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 30