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Out of Pilots Again - 5/6/2011 7:35:57 PM   
Jzanes

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 11/18/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Michael,

My opponent (Rader) and I are in 12/44 and we updated to the latest beta patch (1108m2) hoping it would take care of our problem with running out of pilots. We had one turn where we could both pull lots of pilots but on the 2nd turn post-patch and every turn since, we've been unable to get any pilots.

Could you take a look at this save and see if you can free up anymore inactive pilots?

Any chance of having the array increased above 50,000 in a later patch? I've done some work adding up the various pilot totals and it looks like any late war game is going to need more than 50,000 pilots.

As always, thanks for the help.



Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/7/2011 2:53:38 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Increasing the size would most likely invalidate any current saves, and possibily break Tracker and WITPstaff.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to Jzanes)
Post #: 2
RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/7/2011 4:01:09 AM   
Jzanes

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 11/18/2004
Status: offline 		It would be a shame to have my PBEM match end because of an insufficient pilot array but I'd rather see the array increased and have to restart. I wonder if Tracker and WITPstaff can be made compliant with the larger array.

Speaking for myself, I won't be starting any new matches unless this pilot issue is fixed. It's just too depressing to put in so much time just to have it all quickly fall apart due to a design fault.

Maybe there can be some sort of optional patch that increases the array for those that are ready to start a new game and don't mind losing tracker/witpstaff. Anyways, thanks for the feedback MichaelM.



< Message edited by Jzanes -- 5/7/2011 4:04:03 AM >

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 3
RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/7/2011 6:27:51 AM   
thegreatwent


Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		This is a great concern to myself and my PBEM opponents.  Any word on a work around or a fix would be most welcome.

_____________________________


(in reply to Jzanes)
Post #: 4
RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/7/2011 7:10:55 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		Well, if KIA/MIA pilots can be deleted, so is WIA.

After all, who would want back guy, who spent last sixteen months in hospital? And, when you have lost both hands, you can be qualified as WIA, but you surely never fly again.


What is the possibility to apply array resize AFTER loading save?
There were implemented question about database upgrade in ongoing games.

< Message edited by inqistor -- 5/7/2011 7:14:09 AM >

(in reply to thegreatwent)
Post #: 5
RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/8/2011 1:54:09 AM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Especially with the changes to pilot management making it easier to train a large pool of pilots I could see many games running into this problem.

It seems to me we need either larger pilot numbers OR more aggressive culling of previous pilots from the game so as to keep overall tracked numbers down.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 6
RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/8/2011 2:35:50 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jzanes

Hi Michael,

My opponent (Rader) and I are in 12/44 and we updated to the latest beta patch (1108m2) hoping it would take care of our problem with running out of pilots. We had one turn where we could both pull lots of pilots but on the 2nd turn post-patch and every turn since, we've been unable to get any pilots.

Could you take a look at this save and see if you can free up anymore inactive pilots?

Any chance of having the array increased above 50,000 in a later patch? I've done some work adding up the various pilot totals and it looks like any late war game is going to need more than 50,000 pilots.

As always, thanks for the help.

Little sympathy here ... you knew there was a problem with a 50K limit and instead of managing the problem responsibly you both "pulled lots of pilots" and now are wondering why you couldn't in subsequent turns.

OK - so you've hit the current 50K limit and that's a bad design decision especially since more pilots can be drawn into groups than their max - but as in witp it could be managed and managed adequately by deciding on limits. The array is big enough to not have problems - I tested Scen 1 and the max planes from all grps are 43430 (OK didn't account for increase sizes or withdrawals) ... but your problem speaks to maxing out too many groups beyond the max pilots. So another good design decision (I like the feature) but not thought through regarding the array size needed.

  • So no longer draw pilots beyond max especially for reserve/ training grps
  • Withdraw grps and lose the pilots you don't need. I'm sure you don't need to be using all those grps in backwaters.
  • Use Tracker to look at the numbers and come to an agreement on pilot limits for both sides.
  • Don't replace pilots lost with new pilots; remove pilots from other groups and transfer them to front line units.
  • etc

    In the end the array size will probably need to be increased; but what happens when the 100K limit is reached? Think of it as another logistics hurdle - something that needs to be managed. I guess I'm being a little harsh here - but hitting a problem, getting help and then ramming your hand back into the chain-saw is just a little strange.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: michaelm
    Increasing the size would most likely invalidate any current saves, and possibily break Tracker and WITPstaff.

    Yep speaking about Tracker it would break it until a later release.

    _____________________________

    -Damian-
    EconDoc
    TrackerAE
    Tutes&Java

    (in reply to Jzanes)
    • Post #: 7
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/8/2011 2:43:03 AM   
    Lifer

     

    Posts: 384
    Joined: 6/8/2003
    From: Caprica
    Status: offline     		Is it possible to avoid running out of pilots if you don't send pilots to the reserve? If you don't put your squadrons to 133%? Ready to ask for a HR if there are enough pilot slots without a training program.

    Greg

    _____________________________

    Man does not enter battle to fight, but for victory. He does everything that he can to avoid the first and obtain the second.
    Ardant du Picq

    (in reply to Nemo121)
    Post #: 8
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/8/2011 3:05:16 AM   
    Jzanes

     

    Posts: 471
    Joined: 11/18/2004
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: n01487477


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jzanes

    Hi Michael,

    My opponent (Rader) and I are in 12/44 and we updated to the latest beta patch (1108m2) hoping it would take care of our problem with running out of pilots. We had one turn where we could both pull lots of pilots but on the 2nd turn post-patch and every turn since, we've been unable to get any pilots.

    Could you take a look at this save and see if you can free up anymore inactive pilots?

    Any chance of having the array increased above 50,000 in a later patch? I've done some work adding up the various pilot totals and it looks like any late war game is going to need more than 50,000 pilots.

    As always, thanks for the help.

    Little sympathy here ... you knew there was a problem with a 50K limit and instead of managing the problem responsibly you both "pulled lots of pilots" and now are wondering why you couldn't in subsequent turns.

    OK - so you've hit the current 50K limit and that's a bad design decision especially since more pilots can be drawn into groups than their max - but as in witp it could be managed and managed adequately by deciding on limits. The array is big enough to not have problems - I tested Scen 1 and the max planes from all grps are 43430 (OK didn't account for increase sizes or withdrawals) ... but your problem speaks to maxing out too many groups beyond the max pilots. So another good design decision (I like the feature) but not thought through regarding the array size needed.

  • So no longer draw pilots beyond max especially for reserve/ training grps
  • Withdraw grps and lose the pilots you don't need. I'm sure you don't need to be using all those grps in backwaters.
  • Use Tracker to look at the numbers and come to an agreement on pilot limits for both sides.
  • Don't replace pilots lost with new pilots; remove pilots from other groups and transfer them to front line units.
  • etc

    In the end the array size will probably need to be increased; but what happens when the 100K limit is reached? Think of it as another logistics hurdle - something that needs to be managed. I guess I'm being a little harsh here - but hitting a problem, getting help and then ramming your hand back into the chain-saw is just a little strange.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: michaelm
    Increasing the size would most likely invalidate any current saves, and possibily break Tracker and WITPstaff.

    Yep speaking about Tracker it would break it until a later release.


    • Your tone is a little more cheeky than is really required but for the record I have a grand total of 4000 pilots in general/group reserve. For 20,000 some airframes on the map currently, that doesn't seem too excessive to me. Those 4000 "extra" pilots are broken up into 14 different nationalities and 5 different "specialties" (fighter, bomber, transport, recon, patrol). I'm receiving 1 new air unit per day on average needing anywhere from 10-40 new pilots. Most are already arriving with 0 pilots since none are available. And I'm still in 1944. In 1945 new arrivals and groups resizing (bigger) will really ramp up. the math adds up to a big problem even if you use the n01487477 system for "managing the problem responsibly".




    Attachment (1)

    < Message edited by Jzanes -- 5/8/2011 3:11:43 AM >

    (in reply to n01487477)
    Post #: 9
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/8/2011 3:43:51 AM   
    witpqs


    Posts: 26087
    Joined: 10/4/2004
    From: Argleton
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Lifer

    Is it possible to avoid running out of pilots if you don't send pilots to the reserve? If you don't put your squadrons to 133%? Ready to ask for a HR if there are enough pilot slots without a training program.

    Greg


    What makes sense to me is to limit the size of your reserve, and instead increase the quality of that reserve. When you have a batch of pilots that have met your criteria for "graduation" and you move those pilots from a group you use for training to the reserve, then you need to pull pilots into that group to train. Instead of automatically getting new pilots, look at your reserve and pull in any pilots there that are below your minimum criteria. Train them up to the minimum before putting them back into the reserve.

    When you your entire reserve trained up to those "graduation standards", then increase the size of the reserve. Then you make the next decision - how big shall the reserve be for each type? Suppose you decide to have 1,500 fully qualified fighter pilots in reserve. When you reach that 1,500, use your designated training squadrons to train those 1,500 pilots to even higher and higher levels.

    This approach might be one answer.

    (in reply to Lifer)
    Post #: 10
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/8/2011 4:02:37 AM   
    erstad

     

    Posts: 1944
    Joined: 8/3/2004
    From: Midwest USA
    Status: offline     		Damian, are the pilot IDs in Tracker tied to the 50,000 indices? I have a game in late 44, and the highest index is 25,000 so I'm wondering if there's a separate space for IJN and Allies or if we really only have 25,000 or if the allies and IJ start in different regions but share the whole array or ???

    Basically, I'm trying to assess how close the game is to the limit so we can see if we need to take any preemptive actions.


    (in reply to witpqs)
    Post #: 11
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/8/2011 6:30:29 AM   
    n01487477


    Posts: 4779
    Joined: 2/21/2006
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jzanes

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: n01487477


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jzanes

    Hi Michael,

    My opponent (Rader) and I are in 12/44 and we updated to the latest beta patch (1108m2) hoping it would take care of our problem with running out of pilots. We had one turn where we could both pull lots of pilots but on the 2nd turn post-patch and every turn since, we've been unable to get any pilots.

    Could you take a look at this save and see if you can free up anymore inactive pilots?

    Any chance of having the array increased above 50,000 in a later patch? I've done some work adding up the various pilot totals and it looks like any late war game is going to need more than 50,000 pilots.

    As always, thanks for the help.

    Little sympathy here ... you knew there was a problem with a 50K limit and instead of managing the problem responsibly you both "pulled lots of pilots" and now are wondering why you couldn't in subsequent turns.

    OK - so you've hit the current 50K limit and that's a bad design decision especially since more pilots can be drawn into groups than their max - but as in witp it could be managed and managed adequately by deciding on limits. The array is big enough to not have problems - I tested Scen 1 and the max planes from all grps are 43430 (OK didn't account for increase sizes or withdrawals) ... but your problem speaks to maxing out too many groups beyond the max pilots. So another good design decision (I like the feature) but not thought through regarding the array size needed.

  • So no longer draw pilots beyond max especially for reserve/ training grps
  • Withdraw grps and lose the pilots you don't need. I'm sure you don't need to be using all those grps in backwaters.
  • Use Tracker to look at the numbers and come to an agreement on pilot limits for both sides.
  • Don't replace pilots lost with new pilots; remove pilots from other groups and transfer them to front line units.
  • etc

    In the end the array size will probably need to be increased; but what happens when the 100K limit is reached? Think of it as another logistics hurdle - something that needs to be managed. I guess I'm being a little harsh here - but hitting a problem, getting help and then ramming your hand back into the chain-saw is just a little strange.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: michaelm
    Increasing the size would most likely invalidate any current saves, and possibily break Tracker and WITPstaff.

    Yep speaking about Tracker it would break it until a later release.


    • Your tone is a little more cheeky than is really required but for the record I have a grand total of 4000 pilots in general/group reserve. For 20,000 some airframes on the map currently, that doesn't seem too excessive to me. Those 4000 "extra" pilots are broken up into 14 different nationalities and 5 different "specialties" (fighter, bomber, transport, recon, patrol). I'm receiving 1 new air unit per day on average needing anywhere from 10-40 new pilots. Most are already arriving with 0 pilots since none are available. And I'm still in 1944. In 1945 new arrivals and groups resizing (bigger) will really ramp up. the math adds up to a big problem even if you use the n01487477 system for "managing the problem responsibly".




    Yeah I'm being a little cheeky - but having stated that you've got 4000 pilots in reserve, a whole 25%; which count against the pilot totals - I'll continue and say that instead of drawing pilots from the imaginary pilot training pools (which don't count against the 50K until drawn) but draw down from the reserve your problems will be much less severe. So I'm with witpqs on this one - limits and quality in the reserve pools.

    I get the point of having thousands of pilots reserved ready to be reallocated to fighting units, but I think your being a bit of a hoarder here. 50K might not be enough - but then what would be ? 50K is workable, just not how you want to work it.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: erstad
    Damian, are the pilot IDs in Tracker tied to the 50,000 indices? I have a game in late 44, and the highest index is 25,000 so I'm wondering if there's a separate space for IJN and Allies or if we really only have 25,000 or if the allies and IJ start in different regions but share the whole array or ???

    Basically, I'm trying to assess how close the game is to the limit so we can see if we need to take any preemptive actions.

    OK - pilots from all nations are all mixed up (you can see this in the editor too). The total array size is 50K. In Tracker we use the array position as the index for the pilot ID, so you should be able to see above 25K; I think (with no certainty) that IJ pilots mostly go at the beginning of the array and Allied later - but I'll have to do some testing and get back about that. And there is no 50-50 rule regarding its use.

    Cheers

    < Message edited by n01487477 -- 5/8/2011 6:31:57 AM >

    _____________________________

    -Damian-
    EconDoc
    TrackerAE
    Tutes&Java

    (in reply to Jzanes)
    Post #: 12
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/8/2011 2:57:13 PM   
    Jzanes

     

    Posts: 471
    Joined: 11/18/2004
    Status: offline     		We'll be using up our reserves (do we have a choice?) but here's the problems as I see it;

    1. At least for the allied side, the different national pools will run out at different rates. For example, the Americans will probably be able to shuffle pilots and keep their front line units up to strength for quite a while but the smaller nations will start being paralyzed very quickly. For example, the British currently have about 1500 airframes on the map and 300 pilots in reserve. They are due to receive 450 more airframes by the end of the war. They have about 100 airframes training and about 100 transport planes. These will be the first units to lose their pilots. But the loss of these units will eventually hurt and hurt badly.
    The Soviet situation is even worse. In our game the soviets were activated in 1942 and their airforce was pretty much gutted (don't get me started on lack of airframe replacments for the soviets..). They are currently 1600 airframes and 900 pilots understrength. They are due to receive 1450 new airframes before the end of the war. And they have 300 pilots in reserve. There is no way the soviets are going to be able to effectively use their historical air strength. No soviet units are training units and they have about 50 transport planes to pull pilots from.

    2. I'm a micromanager at heart and I probably take longer to complete a turn than most but even for me, the 4-6 hours to complete the late war allied turns is getting tiresome. As I get closer and closer to 1:1 pilots:airframes, the micromanagement is going to get worse and worse. It takes a long time to go thru each squadron trying to figure out which group reserve pilots can be sent to general reserve and then more time to find and add them to a needy squadron. This shell game is only going to get worse as demand goes up and supply stays the same.

    3. Pilots shortages will start altering the strategies. Knowing that your facing pilot shortages and air units losing functionality, players are going to start altering the way they play. I want to plan my war based on the usual things like force levels and logistics, not on a limited pilot array.

    I don't need unlimited pilots but I think setting the pilot array at 150% of total maximum pilot demand would make the game playable until the end of the war. From what others have posted and what I've come up with in trying to add up all the different pilot numbers, I'd say about 90,000 would be a good ballpark number.

    < Message edited by Jzanes -- 5/8/2011 3:01:23 PM >

    _____________________________


    (in reply to n01487477)
    Post #: 13
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/8/2011 8:19:07 PM   
    witpqs


    Posts: 26087
    Joined: 10/4/2004
    From: Argleton
    Status: offline     		Michael,

    This might be wacky, but how about a button/function/whatever for the player to dismiss/delete a pilot? That way a player could go through say, the Reserve list and get rid of the lower skilled pilots that he figured were no longer needed. That would allow a player to trim their pilot pool and keep things running more in tune with their own style of play.

    (in reply to Jzanes)
    Post #: 14
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/9/2011 8:02:18 AM   
    castor troy


    Posts: 14330
    Joined: 8/23/2004
    From: Austria
    Status: offline     		as there have been more players saying they ran out of slots I fear that most, if not all (when you exclude those that ignore pilot training completely), are going to run into that problem when their PBEM is going to go well into 45. To me, it doesn´t look like jzanes overdid with his reserve pools, not at all considering the date of his campaign.

    As I doubt that even 5% of the PBEM reach 45 it may only be an annoyance for the big majority of players, but for those that actually got a good PBEM and are entering 45 it is pretty much the worst that can happen as they just have to stop the game as it can´t be continued without pilots. And as these players haven´t done anything else than used the game´s possibilities (means training and the pools for it) it´s hard to understand what they actually did wrong. Of course from a publisher´s aspect you can´t tell people they a) got new functions and features and b) can´t play well into 45 if they use these features as it´s going to break the PBEM in the end. Not critisizing someone personally but the issue sure is a problem and I´m well prepared to see my PBEM stop all out of a sudden due to the same problem, which would be a real shame.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Jzanes)
    Post #: 15
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/9/2011 11:05:03 AM   
    n01487477


    Posts: 4779
    Joined: 2/21/2006
    Status: offline     		Yep - having read Jzanes well considered response, I've reversed my previous stance and think that it should be looked into. I know Michael is a one man band at present; but providing enough saves as evidence of this; where players haven't overstepped the bounds of reasonable allocation might convince him to look into it more closely.

    And Tracker will be updated quickly to overcome this issue too.


    _____________________________

    -Damian-
    EconDoc
    TrackerAE
    Tutes&Java

    (in reply to castor troy)
    Post #: 16
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/10/2011 8:19:54 AM   
    castor troy


    Posts: 14330
    Joined: 8/23/2004
    From: Austria
    Status: offline     		can only hope for a change or not to run into this problem. Ok, perhaps I should win the war faster.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to n01487477)
    Post #: 17
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/10/2011 11:15:38 AM   
    beppi

     

    Posts: 382
    Joined: 3/11/2004
    From: Austria
    Status: offline     		One not and one question.

    1.) I like the idea to fire (delete) pilots from the pools. There are often bad quality pilots which you either could train up or keep them in the pool. If you already have enough pilots it is questionable if it is worth to train the to a sufficient level. So a fire button for pilots would be quite nice.

    2.) Would it be possible to display it in game how much pilots are currently used so that precautionary action can be taken prior to running out of pilots. In my game currently i moved the entire Russian air force to the pool and started a new training cycle at 1/44. This was just done more or less for fun as i do not think i will really need that many pilots. In any case i would just fire the new trainees if necessary (need the fire button !)

    (in reply to castor troy)
    Post #: 18
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/11/2011 2:37:39 PM   
    michaelm75au


    Posts: 13500
    Joined: 5/5/2001
    From: Melbourne, Australia
    Status: offline     		Is the ability to add 33% more pilots than is needed for the group really required? In RL, did groups consistently have that many more pilots even if the group had no operational planes?

    I am being to question the original design decision that allowed 12 extra pilots in a 36-plane group. Afterall, we only allow an extra 4 planes as reserves.
    Maybe +10% or 5 pilots extra is more plausable for operational groups. Dedicated training groups would not be affected by this.


    _____________________________

    Michael

    (in reply to beppi)
    Post #: 19
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/11/2011 3:12:36 PM   
    Numdydar

     

    Posts: 3211
    Joined: 2/13/2004
    Status: offline     		In my Dad's squadron of B25's in 42-43 they had zero spare crews. Everyone flew as 90% of the training took place in the US. By the time you got to the theater, it was assumed by the commandors that you were combat ready and could fly missions. Of course many of these 'first' missions were planned to be milk runs versus major raids

    My impression from playing the game is that the ability to add 33% more pilots was mainly to help the Japanesse player to increase the number of training pilots (maybe to help the Jap AI?). Given the abundance of US pilots and training available, why would an Allied player even bother stuffing their pilot pools like that? By the time 44-45 rolls around the Allies should have attrited the Japanesse pilot pool to the point where even poorly train Allied pilots would be able to be effective. At least that is my impression.

    The main issue is that if the game allows this then people will use it (another good example of 'build it and they will come' ). So I cannot fault them for doing what the game allows.

    Rather than setting code up for a fire button, could the game just be coded to remove pilots from the database once they are KIA or missing for some period of time (60 days?). I for one could care less about knowing the fate of a pilot that dies in '42 when it is now '44. Of course if that would not work, then the fire button would be an option. Matbe we could record Trumps voice saying 'You're Fired!' each time the button is used

    (in reply to michaelm75au)
    Post #: 20
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/11/2011 3:36:53 PM   
    michaelm75au


    Posts: 13500
    Joined: 5/5/2001
    From: Melbourne, Australia
    Status: offline     		Pilots are already pruned to remove the inactive pilots (KIA or MIA) with the lowest kills first ( and then increasing upto 10) when the number of free pilots is reaching its limit.

    _____________________________

    Michael

    (in reply to Numdydar)
    Post #: 21
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/11/2011 4:09:07 PM   
    castor troy


    Posts: 14330
    Joined: 8/23/2004
    From: Austria
    Status: offline     		Anyone know a more or less exact number of the total aircraft on the map for a, let´s say, scenario 2 PBEM entering 45? Must be tens of thousands as I´ve got something like 2500+ carrier based aircraft alone as the Allied. The KIA/MIA in my PBEM don´t seem to be really a problem because entering 45 I´ve got only something like 3000, at least only 3000 are shown as total KIA/MIA, so 1000 every year in the end. Still I´m very afraid of having the PBEM stopped due to running out of slots.

    < Message edited by castor troy -- 5/11/2011 4:10:21 PM >

    _____________________________


    (in reply to michaelm75au)
    Post #: 22
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/11/2011 6:15:11 PM   
    witpqs


    Posts: 26087
    Joined: 10/4/2004
    From: Argleton
    Status: offline     		Michael,

    In-game people use the extra pilots in squadrons to train a larger number faster. I have gotten away from that as I believe I am seeing that #pilots=#planes trains fastest. Second, in-game having extra pilots in a squadron results in having pilots available who have less fatigue. Provided that the planes are kept in repair, that makes a difference. Also, on average new planes can be brought in more quickly than pilots for most plane types. Then look at the USN carrier squadrons. They can get new planes that are ready to fly from the "Replacement" carrier squadrons. If they don't have at least a few extra pilots then those planes are useless.

    IRL some USN carrier squadrons started the war with a large number of extra pilots. Overall, AFAIK the practice was to have a crew for each plane. However, the air general under MacArthur (was that Kenney?) put forth and adopted the practice of having as many extra crews as he could get so as to keep the planes flying with fresh crews. He stated that his ideal was a 2 to 1 ratio of crews to planes.

    So, IRL it was a mixed bag. In the game, we do need some extra pilots due to the dynamics involved (delay times, planes flying in from "Replacement" squadrons, etc.). I do not usually get close to 1/3, except small squadrons (say 8 planes, having 10 pilots is the truncated figure for 1/3).

    Hopes this info helps.

    (in reply to castor troy)
    Post #: 23
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/11/2011 6:29:52 PM   
    witpqs


    Posts: 26087
    Joined: 10/4/2004
    From: Argleton
    Status: offline     		Michael,

    Let me further add that as a game-play aid, being able to add extra pilots is vital because of the game mechanics of moving pilots to the reserve. I'll illustrate.

    Take the example of a squadron that withdraws at any future date. The game does not allow the player to remove pilots from the squadron if #pilots <= max#planes. So, to use this squadron for training pilots (essential for the Allied player), he must add a new (or unskilled pilot from the Reserve) before sending a trained pilot to the Reserve.

    If you take away the ability to add pilots above and beyond the max#planes, then all of those squadrons (and there are a lot of them) will no longer be able to be used for training by the Allied player. This would be a devastating change.

    Having the ability to press "Get Pilot" and "Get Veteran" even when the squadron is full is essential. Having the "Get x Pilots", where x is the extra 1/3, saves a lot of clicking and/or moving back and forth between screens for the player.

    I know that we are dealing with the pilot array getting full. The issue is that squadrons which withdraw do not allow you to remove pilots unless they have "extra" pilots. So, unless that restriction is removed, taking away the ability to add extra pilots means those squadrons could not be used for training.

    < Message edited by witpqs -- 5/11/2011 6:30:34 PM >

    (in reply to witpqs)
    Post #: 24
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/11/2011 6:49:29 PM   
    foliveti


    Posts: 371
    Joined: 9/12/2002
    From: Buffalo, NY
    Status: offline     		I regularly keep squadrons at maximum pilots and have found that pilot fatigue rarely is a factor.  This is true even when I have them flying missions every day.  Which does not really seem to be right, but that seems to be the way the game engine works.  I have never gotten out of 1942, so I have not seen the pilot limit, but it is good to start thinking about it.

    _____________________________

    Frank

    (in reply to witpqs)
    Post #: 25
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/12/2011 1:00:52 PM   
    castor troy


    Posts: 14330
    Joined: 8/23/2004
    From: Austria
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: witpqs

    Michael,

    In-game people use the extra pilots in squadrons to train a larger number faster. I have gotten away from that as I believe I am seeing that #pilots=#planes trains fastest. Second, in-game having extra pilots in a squadron results in having pilots available who have less fatigue. Provided that the planes are kept in repair, that makes a difference. Also, on average new planes can be brought in more quickly than pilots for most plane types. Then look at the USN carrier squadrons. They can get new planes that are ready to fly from the "Replacement" carrier squadrons. If they don't have at least a few extra pilots then those planes are useless.

    IRL some USN carrier squadrons started the war with a large number of extra pilots. Overall, AFAIK the practice was to have a crew for each plane. However, the air general under MacArthur (was that Kenney?) put forth and adopted the practice of having as many extra crews as he could get so as to keep the planes flying with fresh crews. He stated that his ideal was a 2 to 1 ratio of crews to planes.

    So, IRL it was a mixed bag. In the game, we do need some extra pilots due to the dynamics involved (delay times, planes flying in from "Replacement" squadrons, etc.). I do not usually get close to 1/3, except small squadrons (say 8 planes, having 10 pilots is the truncated figure for 1/3).

    Hopes this info helps.



    if you draw from replacement squadrons then you also draw these pilots though.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to witpqs)
    Post #: 26
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/12/2011 7:59:04 PM   
    witpqs


    Posts: 26087
    Joined: 10/4/2004
    From: Argleton
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: castor troy

    if you draw from replacement squadrons then you also draw these pilots though.


    That's bad - those guys are awful! I have to use them for training squadrons because the USN doesn't get land-based squadrons to train with until much later.

    (in reply to castor troy)
    Post #: 27
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/12/2011 8:20:34 PM   
    CaptDave

     

    Posts: 659
    Joined: 6/21/2002
    From: Federal Way, WA
    Status: offline     		It seems to me that a small number of pilots should be available above the number of aircraft.  These would represent the various staff positions filled by pilots.  Even those who didn't fly regularly still flew missions to maintain their competency, fill in for those in the hospital, etc.

    I do sympathize with the arguments about rotating pilots in and out of training squadrons.  But while I don't do it any less than anyone else, the practice of cherry-picking pilots from a group that's withdrawing doesn't seem right.  If the higher-ups rotated a group out, that included their pilots; the best didn't get the option to stay in theater.  A local commander may now and then have done his best to keep someone around, but certainly not with the frequency we all try to do so.

    (in reply to witpqs)
    Post #: 28
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/12/2011 9:17:17 PM   
    witpqs


    Posts: 26087
    Joined: 10/4/2004
    From: Argleton
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: CaptDave

    It seems to me that a small number of pilots should be available above the number of aircraft.  These would represent the various staff positions filled by pilots.  Even those who didn't fly regularly still flew missions to maintain their competency, fill in for those in the hospital, etc.

    I do sympathize with the arguments about rotating pilots in and out of training squadrons.  But while I don't do it any less than anyone else, the practice of cherry-picking pilots from a group that's withdrawing doesn't seem right.  If the higher-ups rotated a group out, that included their pilots; the best didn't get the option to stay in theater.  A local commander may now and then have done his best to keep someone around, but certainly not with the frequency we all try to do so.



    When you deliberately put pilots into the unit for the purpose of training them and pulling them out, that is not cherry picking the unit before it withdraws. In fact, except for the groups that withdraw very early, you go through several cycles of putting new pilots in and pulling trained pilots out. That is not cherry picking by any stretch of the imagination.

    (in reply to CaptDave)
    Post #: 29
    RE: Out of Pilots Again - 5/13/2011 7:52:29 PM   
    CaptDave

     

    Posts: 659
    Joined: 6/21/2002
    From: Federal Way, WA
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: witpqs


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: CaptDave

    It seems to me that a small number of pilots should be available above the number of aircraft.  These would represent the various staff positions filled by pilots.  Even those who didn't fly regularly still flew missions to maintain their competency, fill in for those in the hospital, etc.

    I do sympathize with the arguments about rotating pilots in and out of training squadrons.  But while I don't do it any less than anyone else, the practice of cherry-picking pilots from a group that's withdrawing doesn't seem right.  If the higher-ups rotated a group out, that included their pilots; the best didn't get the option to stay in theater.  A local commander may now and then have done his best to keep someone around, but certainly not with the frequency we all try to do so.



    When you deliberately put pilots into the unit for the purpose of training them and pulling them out, that is not cherry picking the unit before it withdraws. In fact, except for the groups that withdraw very early, you go through several cycles of putting new pilots in and pulling trained pilots out. That is not cherry picking by any stretch of the imagination.



    Sorry, let me clarify: my remark was aimed at front-line units that are to be withdrawn, not groups being used for training. When a unit is purposely being used for training, then this tactic is certainly more than acceptable.

    (in reply to witpqs)
    Post #: 30
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