Balance in Witp/WitpAE

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Balance in Witp/WitpAE

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Opponents Wanted >> Balance in Witp/WitpAE

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/10/2011 8:28:59 PM

aqui

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/9/2007
Status: offline

In my experience there is a big inbalance in WITPAE and WITP First Scenario (Grand Campaign) in favor of allies. The only chance to win for Jap is when un Ally too bored to wait till �43 accept the fight before reaching superiority. Accepting Air-naval battles or trying to hold some base at any cost before that date it�s needlessly risky and could means the loss of CVs or Divisions and the final defeat. The players that don�t believe in ally superiority usually played games that finish in 1942. Instead to fully realize the power of ally it need to play till 1944 or 45.
It�s not amusing to play a fated game. Nevertheless people accept to take Jap because it is much more amusing in 1942. If they don�t win for the end of this date often they give up. In this way the ally player is deprived of the part of the game more interesting for him. Here hence a lot of complaints because the opponent flew away. So what to do?
Try to balance. A jap that has more chance to win it will be more interested in continue the game.
I have the following proposal:
1) Playing both side at the same time with the same player
2) Bid for ally. Players can offer to move 1 o 2 level in jap favor
3) Apply all 3 these things:
a. using scenario 2
b. allowing as many port attacks Jap wants in the first day. Some people say that more than 1 attack in first day is un-historical because the difference in time zone (it would be night in Singapore/Manila when Jap makes Pearl Harbour attack) but you can imagine that Jap make a night attack (also if it not possible to make night attackin first turn)
c. putting off the Realistic R&D
What�s the best? Other ideas?
aqui

Post #: 1

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/10/2011 8:33:37 PM

Nemo121

Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline

Well, you could simply play as the Allies and beat the Japanese by mid-1942.

That pretty much disproves your thesis.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to aqui)

Post #: 2

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/11/2011 12:03:03 AM

Patbgaming

Posts: 103
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline

As an ALLIED FB I think any allied player that doesn't actively defend in 42 ( not to be confused with hold at all costs ) and waiting till late 43 when his reinforcements start to arrive enmasse to engage his Japanese opponent is more worried about winning then about enjoying the game. If you are too afraid to face your enemy and are just hiding in port until the cavalry arrives then it seems to me on a certain level your opponent has already won. I would also be willing to bet that some if not most of the better Japanese players could potentially make that kind of player pay for his timidity with a possible auto-victory. Just my 2 cents.

_____________________________

I can show you and I can teach you but I just can't learn for you. - Nameless NCO US Army

(in reply to aqui)

Post #: 3

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/11/2011 2:56:30 AM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline

Aqui -

what is your definition of winning - VP's? IMHO Sc 1 is quite fair to the Empire cause. If you feel additional toys are needed, there are several public and other private mods out there to try. Also as to house rules, as a player, you only need to agree with your PBEM opponent. The forum is...well a place for advice. The only laws are the computer algorithims that control the various processes of the game. You play the game the way you want to. Let it be fun for you.

As an aside, there are some very experienced and crafty JFB's out there who have posted AAR's. Let me also suggest you spend a few hours reading their thought processes as a primer to what is and isnt doable.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Patbgaming)

Post #: 4

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/11/2011 4:00:31 AM

jeffk3510

Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline

Are you saying the Allies are too strong?

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to topeverest)

Post #: 5

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/11/2011 4:49:10 AM

vettim89

Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline

I reject your thesis. Yes there are some things in the game that allow Allied players some unwarranted advantages but the same could be said for the Japan side. I think you discount excellant game play as a factor in some outcomes. I think some of the best players on the Forums tend to be AFB. There are some excellant JFB also but I think they are outnumbered probably by a factor of 2:1.

I won't name names but I can think of a couple of AFB's who can provide evidence that the game is not automatically an Allied wash through 1942 and even 1943.

That said some mods like DaBabes and Treespider's Mod that make some changes that slow down the Allies to more historic levels

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to aqui)

Post #: 6

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/11/2011 6:15:32 AM

jeffs

Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
Status: offline

Outside of any questions about the quality of players (both good and bad)....It seems to me pretty logical that the GC should be in favor of the allies. When you do the analysis it was clear that Japan was a long shot to win the war. That simple. So a realistic game should reflect that.

Of course, to make the game interesting one can change various rules/give the empire goodies (as in scen 2) and that is fine for the sake of an exciting game. But if we take the game to be accurate historical simulation.....Japan should be at a strong disadvantage.

As for doing Sir Robin in scenario 1....I would agree lame. Very lame (in scen 2 it is probably necessary).

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 7

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/11/2011 2:33:31 PM

jeffk3510

Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Outside of any questions about the quality of players (both good and bad)....It seems to me pretty logical that the GC should be in favor of the allies. When you do the analysis it was clear that Japan was a long shot to win the war. That simple. So a realistic game should reflect that.
Of course, to make the game interesting one can change various rules/give the empire goodies (as in scen 2) and that is fine for the sake of an exciting game. But if we take the game to be accurate historical simulation.....Japan should be at a strong disadvantage.

As for doing Sir Robin in scenario 1....I would agree lame. Very lame (in scen 2 it is probably necessary).

Agreed.

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to jeffs)

Post #: 8

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/11/2011 5:33:45 PM

Fishbed

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline

Something that people didn't quite try yet AFAIK, is making a scenario or a roleplay about keeping the US out of the war until a certain date.
What about doing a PBEM where the Allied player would have to stand down any US troop or airgroup until the Japanese attack an American base? Even though it is highly doubtful the Roosevelt-led USA would have stepped back and done nothing, well, I just don't see them starting the war so easily just like that with an invasion of Malaya or the DEI, but without a clear Japanese aggression against US forces. A scenario having US forces appearing only in late December after a serious political buildup at the House to pass the declaration of war could be interesting, and give the Japanese player a new kind of challenge: much more freedom in the DEI and Malaya and a good headstart, but you'd have to keep an eye on the Philippines, lose the element of surprise against US forces, and restrain from attacking a US territory until a certain date.

< Message edited by Fishbed -- 5/11/2011 5:34:34 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to jeffk3510)

Post #: 9

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/13/2011 9:39:58 AM

el cid again

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Something that people didn't quite try yet AFAIK, is making a scenario or a roleplay about keeping the US out of the war until a certain date.
What about doing a PBEM where the Allied player would have to stand down any US troop or airgroup until the Japanese attack an American base? Even though it is highly doubtful the Roosevelt-led USA would have stepped back and done nothing, well, I just don't see them starting the war so easily just like that with an invasion of Malaya or the DEI, but without a clear Japanese aggression against US forces. A scenario having US forces appearing only in late December after a serious political buildup at the House to pass the declaration of war could be interesting, and give the Japanese player a new kind of challenge: much more freedom in the DEI and Malaya and a good headstart, but you'd have to keep an eye on the Philippines, lose the element of surprise against US forces, and restrain from attacking a US territory until a certain date.

Apparently FDR made the decision for war before it happened. See Cruise of the Lanokai, RADM Vince Trolly. As an LT, in 1941, he was one of three young officers given secret Presidential orders by Adm King, who also was privy to intel not made available to Mac or others in theater. Three small vessels were fittd as minor warships - the vital gear being a 3 inch gun, a flag and a radio! They were to get in the way of Malaya bound convoys of the Japanese, violate the rules of the road until fired upon, and THEN reveal the ensign, broadcasting the IJN had "fired upon a US warship." One of those three ships actually made such a patrol - but failed to find a convoy - before events overtook the plan. Lanokai finished fitting out just too late - war had begun - and took on other missions described in the book - including an epic voyage to AUS - the last surface vessel to escape Manila Bay bigger than a PT boat. Also, it was formal policy that "any attack on British or Dutch territory would be treated like an attack on the USA." History does not support your thesis.

(in reply to Fishbed)

Post #: 10

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/16/2011 12:46:07 PM

darbycmcd

Posts: 394
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline

Totally OT, but El Cid, it is great to have you back! I played the hell out of RHS. Any chance of you taking up the mod reins again?

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 11

RE: Balance in Witp/WitpAE - 5/18/2011 11:19:07 PM

el cid again

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

Mifune reports problems with aircraft data modeling - and has done AE with RHS standards re that - so I might do a quick mod using his tables - and making critical map changes somehow left out of AE. At least the Kokota Trail and the Baguio City hex on Luzon. Baguio is malaria free, a major supply source and resource center, and a road junction in the mountains. Big mountains. The first time I went up the Naguilian Road into Baguio - the route was used by IJA in 1942 and by US Army in 1944/5 - I was astounded by the steep mountains, etc. Yamashita was right to make the area his focus - had Mac done that he might never have lost the garrison before the US returned!

(in reply to darbycmcd)

Post #: 12