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To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/15/2011 11:32:49 PM

Deca

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To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM

Am I foolish for thinking that in a PBEM against a skilled opponent that I am actually "making a difference" by defending to the last man in Burma, Malaya, DEI, PI, etc if I do not pull a Sir Robin? I know that fighting will delay the Japan player, but will it really be enough of a delay & cost to the Japan player to warrant the loss of all those LCU/Ships/Squadrons?

For example, I've read AARs, discussions, and strategy pro/cons for implementing a Sir Robin (many of which are quite remarkable). Many players on the forums argue that using the Sir Robin or at minimum a limited type of it...as the best overall strategy in a PBEM. For instance, I can see the value in saving the 3x USN BF & 3x USAAF BF from PI, the 1 & 2 ML-KNIL Avaiation from Java as well as other LCU & sqaudrons. The constant allied need for additional AV support will be somewhat alleviated by saving these LCU..etc...

Moreover, I like the vision of extracting as many units, ships, & squadrons as possible to live and fight another day while denying the Japan player those points for destroying them. Not to mention, the thought of letting units get destroyed when they could have knowingly been evacuated doesn't sit well with me.

On the other hand, there is profound logic in the viewpoint that if a more determined defense is made, then less ground will have to be retaken. For each port/base that is NOT lost to the enemy basically means less resources, planes, troops, ships will need to be lost in retaking them. What's not captured doesn't have to be retaken & the Japan player will thereby have less of a "buffer".

In addition, I can see the arguements of the cons caused by the Sir Robin which are (but by no means limited to), the invested PP could be used elsewhere (buy out other units which otherwise would have remained restricted in the backlines), the loss valuable PBY for extraction instead of other uses, the Japan player can operate completely differently knowing a Sir Robin is being used (I've seen others state if they know their opponent is pulling a Sir Robin they'll make them pay big time), the giving up so much ground without any fight, those extracted units will then need to be rebuilt will have low train/morale as well as use up valuable replacements points which could have been used for other units, etc...

If there is no Sir Robin, then Places like Palembang, Singapore, Batavia, Soreabaja, Balikpapan will now be more difficult for the enemy to capture as well as suffer more damage to those critical areas that he desperately needs.

Although the concept of trying to make the enemy pay for each step the enemy takes sounds appealing, I'd rather not embark upon that strategy if it is in reality a failed and pointless task.

I've read so many times the destinction made on the forums between AI/PBEM opponents that it paints a picture in PBEM to think that the tide can be slowed is fruitless.

Despite the above, I am leaning towards fighting simply because I am an aggressive player by nature, but so is my brother (my PBEM opponent).

His tactics and strategy can be summarized by the following 3 quotes:

"Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more."

"Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man."

"The best defense is a good offense"

I subscribe to the philosophy behind those three quotes as well, but he is much better in executing them in practice than I.

Thoughts?

< Message edited by Deca -- 5/15/2011 11:37:52 PM >

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 12:47:12 AM

Nemo121

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By the sound of your post you haven't read the AARs in which players have successfuly defended forward. In some cases they've basically ended the war as a going concern, in Scenario 2, by mid-1942. One can always point to their opponents and say that's only possible because of their opponents but, by the same token, huge Japanese successes are also only possible because of the Allied players' choices.

If you defend forward in a smart way with cohesion across all strategic directions and all front and army actions subordinated to the (inter)national policy objectives then you can crush Japan while it is still stuck in the DEI/near Pacific. It takes skill but it is possible.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 1:41:19 AM

AW1Steve

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Most people don't understand "Sir Robin". Those of us that successfully use and enbrace him realize that unlike the song, he's not "bravely running away". He's saving his forces to regroup and counter attack. The alternative is to stupidly stay in place and die. And your enemy doesn't even thank you for it.

As the game opens , your forces are set up for colonial duties, not warfighting. They couldn't be in worse positions if you tried.

The question with Sir Robin is not "to do or not to do", but "how far to withdraw".

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 6:11:49 AM

freeboy

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I wholey agree.. remember the forces in the main PI and borneo are lost.. dig in fight hard but do not reinforce..
Malaysia and Java as well.. dig in ..
In Burma you may want to pick some spots and dig in, but do not let the enemy surround your guys... I just let go and get all my high value, to me not to the game, base supportunits out.. you always always always need more support for your planes as the allies..
by 43 and especially 44 you will want to have a layered attack in the air... pm me if interested in this concdept.
By al means use yor awesome ca forces to play hit and sink the lightly defended invasion forces, and do not worry about lossing ships, you get lots back..
I like to dig in at Rabhal, other do not.. my thoughts are the more I can slow him down, and eventually he will run out of room in the solomons.. the better .. by 42 fall I want to have the advance stopped and start my aggression...

one exception is in OZ, I hate lossing Darwin, but in game turns its a no win situation for the Jap player... eventually they run out of desert to advance into... and then they have to ship supplies in, supplies that cannot be used elsewhere, and then hopefully in 43 any lost bases will be so bi passed the oponenent must chose his own sir robin...

So, run away, save what you will need to attack in 42/43... dig in where you think you can slow the enemies advance... Since the game really prohibits the Japanese player from invading into India, holding Singapore really has no value, everything left there will be lost.. likewise no sane Jap player would march overland across the devide, the area with no roads or rails between burma and India.... so you can move into Imphall and build a large airbase there and then stage out ofther if you choose to retake Burma.. hoep that helps

(in reply to AW1Steve)

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 9:27:43 AM

LoBaron

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Ok seems the definition of a Sir Robin changed over the years.

My definition still was pull out of DEI and Burma and even northern India
and let the Japanese hit empty air for the first 6 months.

Staying to fight it out at the starting locations is not the opposite of a Sir Robin,
its just plain stupid.
Pull back, reorganize, defend and hit back where applicable should not require a
unique name, its just what a good defense should look like.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 11:17:53 AM

Sardaukar

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Fight where you can. Pull back where you cannot.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 11:38:33 AM

Blackhorse

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The vast majority of your ground and air forces in the PI and DEI can not be withdrawn. Since you have to fight with them, you might as well fight as best you can. There are advantages to delaying the Japanese by forcing him to concentrate his forces; failing to do so allows the Japanese to sweep up dozens of islands at no cost that they would otherwise never reach, or would be attrited en route.

For me, the essence of a successful "Sir Robin" is to keep a fleet-in-being dancing just outside the reach of the KB. That either slows the initial conquests, by forcing the Japanese player to escort his invasions, or allows you to whack unescorted task forces.

Even with (especially with) a "Sir Robin" the Allied player should not be bashful about initiating surface fleet engagements, even at long odds. The game mechanics allow the Japanese to build what they could not, historically; an Army and Air Force to match the Allies. But the navy is limited. Every IJN DD, CL and CA you sink in 1941 and 1942 brings forward the day you will have naval superiority and wrest back the initiative.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 12:29:23 PM

Bliztk

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For me Sir Robin is a mistake. You only have to punch one Japanese lightly escorted operation to force Combined Fleet to escort (and dilute strengh) or decrease the pace of operations.

If you do Sir Robin, instead of doing only one operation or two, Japan can do several more things simultaneusly, which is bad for the Allies

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 1:15:54 PM

Reg

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These AARs are from WITP but they make interesting reading as John 3rd thumbs his nose at Sir Robin and the hapless Miller41.....

The Fleet the Gods Forgot: ALLIED Perspective
The Fleet the Gods Forgot - Japanese Prospective

< Message edited by Reg -- 5/17/2011 10:28:26 AM >

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 2:28:15 PM

Deca

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Lot's of good posts that'll I'll try to reply to asap.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 2:42:39 PM

Canoerebel

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You'd better clarify that you're referring to Miller41 rather than Miller. I've never played Miller41 and don't know much about him (other than he's a fellow Georgian), but I have played Miller regularly. He aint hapless.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 2:48:17 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

These AARs are from WITP but they make interesting reading as John 3rd thumbs his nose at Sir Robin and the hapless Miller.....

The Fleet the Gods Forgot: ALLIED Perspective
The Fleet the Gods Forgot - Japanese Prospective

I would just like to point out I am not the "Miller" in this game (I think his forum name is miller41).

(in reply to Reg)

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 2:50:37 PM

Miller

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Dan beat me too it

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 2:52:11 PM

crsutton

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There is no true Sir Robin. If you area playing scen #1 it would be foolish to totally Sir Robin, and in scen #2 it allows for a very tight Japanese perimeter if you totally sandbag. I have a great campaign going with Viperpol and basically played a soft defense. The premise is that in scen #2, if the Japanese player really wants an objective, it is his at least until late 42 or early 43. But that does not mean that there are not opportunities for you elsewhere.

My only real objectives after the initial 42 disasters that could not be avoided were to. 1. Not lose any more major land units other than Chinese (meaning divisions mostly) and 2. not to squander away my carriers. If that means conceding territory then so be it. However, I never abandoned totally any decent base and fought to delay wherever I could.

Bear in mind that we started the game in October 2009 when it was right out of the box. Knowing what I know now about AE there are a few things I would have done different. For example, now that it is apparent that surfaces forces are much more deadly than they historically were, I would have been a little more aggressive with my surface forces. And there are some excellent gambits that players have learned that you can use to mess up the Japanese time table. However, all of these gambits are contingent on either your Japanese opponent making a mistake or not being aggressive enough and falling behind time wise. Every gambit has a counter.

I might also add that there have been many revisions to the game that might have changed my overall strategy. For example, the ability to now buy back units changes a lot of things and I might have been more willing to sacrifice a division to hold a key point for a few months.

So, I am for fighting it out but playing scen #2 believe that you must have realistic plans based on the skill level of your opponent. As for a total Sir Robin, if I were a Japanese player, I would love to see my opponent do it. Boring as it would initially be.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 2:57:17 PM

Canoerebel

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How the Allied player approaches the early war depends upon too many factors to give concrete answers. The first major considerations are scenario, experience and ability of the Japanese player, and experience and ability of the Allies player.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 3:08:53 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

How the Allied player approaches the early war depends upon too many factors to give concrete answers. The first major considerations are scenario, experience and ability of the Japanese player, and experience and ability of the Allies player.

I think the early Allied air groups and land units (apart from the aviation support units) are expendable. Regardling ships, If I was in charge the dutch crap could go down fighting and maybe even Houston/Boise and the old US DDs, however I would try and save force Z.

I have just started a new game and my opponent sent them boldly north where they ran into the strong IJN BB/CA TF that covers the invasions on the eastern coast of Malaya. The fight was inconclusive but Repulse was hit by a torpedo and slowed the rest of the fleet during withdrawl. They survived a small Betty strike during the day but I'm almost certain they will be swamped the next turn.....just waiting for it coming back!

Unlike the real war, the IJN has plenty of transports in reserve, so I'm not bothered if I lose a few to surface ships in the early days of the campaign. Also the Allies only have a window of about a week before the mini KB gets into position to make any more attacks very costly.........

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 4:28:08 PM

Deca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
By the sound of your post you haven't read the AARs in which players have successfuly defended forward.

You are correct. Initially, my strategy focus was on Sir Robin; hence, I looked for information on doing that. However, I would like to read AARs covering what you discuss if you can point me in the direction of a few.

Side Note:
I've just started reading your AAR called Salutations and solicitations against 1EyedJack.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 4:30:12 PM

Deca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
As the game opens, your forces are set up for colonial duties, not warfighting. They couldn't be in worse positions if you tried.

These are exactly my thoughts for the manner in which the starting forces are "lined up". The lack of units as well as the degree to which the units are spread out & dispersed is alarming.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
My definition still was pull out of DEI and Burma and even northern India and let the Japanese hit empty air for the first 6 months.

This, too, was my initial plan (except for India). Withdraw to a much more manageable line in China, get out of DEI & Burma; draw a line at the burma/inda border.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 4:31:13 PM

Deca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
By al means use yor awesome ca forces to play hit and sink the lightly defended invasion forces, and do not worry about lossing ships, you get lots back..

Definitely, this was something that I firmly felt was important regardless of my overall strategy. I wanted to "keep him honest" & force him to want to exert more resources to protecting his TF knowing that I'll do all I can to catch those invading TF without proper support.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 4:43:18 PM

Deca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
There are advantages to delaying the Japanese by forcing him to concentrate his forces; failing to do so allows the Japanese to sweep up dozens of islands at no cost that they would otherwise never reach, or would be attrited en route.

...But the navy is limited. Every IJN DD, CL and CA you sink...

These were two points (I've more, but these are definitely 2 of them) that I liked about fighting back.

1) Delaying the loss of some areas, making him pay more for them & in some cases preventing him from gaining other areas at all that he otherwise would have taken
2) Although we both have finite resource, his naval reinforcement situation is NOT even remotely close. In fact, it's a land slide in my favor. I agree 100% with your analysis on the Japan situation for DD, CL, and CA (see below list).

Example:
At one time, I looked into (any mistakes my apologies) and wrote down the starting, reinforcements, and totals for a few different types of ships, and from that list below I felt that trading ships for the Japan player is in no way an option. In fact, after looking at it from this list, I was shocked at how badly the Japan player is in CA, CL, & DD.

Likewise, I did not know they got as many TK as the allied though either. Interesting stuff.

*Note: The allied list does not contain Russian units.

< Message edited by Deca -- 5/16/2011 4:57:11 PM >

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 4:44:16 PM

Deca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk
If you do Sir Robin, instead of doing only one operation or two, Japan can do several more things simultaneusly, which is bad for the Allies.

My brother has made that clear to me in many of our conversations as we talk about our upcoming PBEM game. He's joked about that fact and stated he hopes I do a Sir Robin.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 4:44:54 PM

Deca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
I might also add that there have been many revisions to the game that might have changed my overall strategy. For example, the ability to now buy back units changes a lot of things and I might have been more willing to sacrifice a division to hold a key point for a few months.

Are you refering to the latest beta patches? This is the second time I've hear about buying back LCU, but I thought it was not in the current official release?

We've purposely held off playing our game for many of the fixes (as well as enhancements) since we know we'll be commiting months, possibly years playing the GC; I've thought about even holding out a little longer for the next official release, but not sure I can wait.

Any word on when it might be put out as another official patch?

< Message edited by Deca -- 5/16/2011 4:49:00 PM >

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 5:14:40 PM

Deca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg
These AARs are from WITP but they make interesting reading as John 3rd thumbs his nose at Sir Robin and the hapless Miller.....
The Fleet the Gods Forgot: ALLIED Perspective
The Fleet the Gods Forgot - Japanese Prospective

In addition to the above (which I'll look over), do you have any recommendations for WitP-AE AARs?

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 7:14:44 PM

Nemo121

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Hmm, looks like my reply got swallowed.... I would recommend Canoerebel's current AE AAR and also jrcar's AAR. I wouldn't really recommend the Fleet the Gods Forgot for numerous reasons, mostly because I think it teaches the wrong "lessons" and there's a distinct lack of logistical nous on both sides which would be a bad thing to learn.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 8:43:43 PM

Deca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Hmm, looks like my reply got swallowed.... I would recommend Canoerebel's current AE AAR and also jrcar's AAR. I wouldn't really recommend the Fleet the Gods Forgot for numerous reasons, mostly because I think it teaches the wrong "lessons" and there's a distinct lack of logistical nous on both sides which would be a bad thing to learn.

These two, correct?

Tokyo Rose was a Hussy! Chez (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Aussies v Aussies - Clubbing baby seals (no AOFFEN or Mark)

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 9:03:46 PM

vettim89

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk
If you do Sir Robin, instead of doing only one operation or two, Japan can do several more things simultaneusly, which is bad for the Allies.

My brother has made that clear to me in many of our conversations as we talk about our upcoming PBEM game. He's joked about that fact and stated he hopes I do a Sir Robin.

First, I agree that just running away will give your opponent too much leeway. Keep in mind that an active defense does not mean "fighting to the last man". Just occasionally showing your surface fleet to your opponent will force him to consider the possibility that they may be lurking around the next base he intends to invade. That will force him to be more cautious ergo slow him down.

Second, in AE the RNN ships really don't upgrade; so, by mid war they will be more of a liability than an asset especially in terms of AAA. Likewise for any Dutch BF you rescue. With the future patch likely including a "buy back" option for LCU, even saving the USN BF from the PI becomes less of a big deal.

Even using your precious carriers judiciously can really put a wrench into the works. Point being that how well you slow your opponent up in the first half of 1942 will determine wht kind of war you will be fighting late in 1942.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 11:25:07 PM

Nemo121

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Deca, yes.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/16/2011 11:56:37 PM

HexHead

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While it occurs to me, an interesting observation, IMO:

I was a medic in the Regulars - US Army. My active duty was at a small post in Maryland (this was ages ago). We never were in the field.

Then I was in the National Guard with a rifle company (Co. C, 1/181 Inf., 26th "Yankee" Div.). Still a medic. During our annual two weeks, I asked an old hand what we were doing.

"We're retreating," he replied.
"Why do we retreat so much?" I asked (it seemed we practiced retreats a lot).
"Well," he said, "in a sense, anyone can attack. To retreat in good order and maintain your unit integrity - that's the mark of a good outfit."

Never forgotten that.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/17/2011 2:03:02 AM

topeverest

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Deca,

To some degree every allied player has to fall back for a fight another day. the amount is situational, but IMHO I dont advocate traditional sir robin.

Fight for it, surface raid, use subs, set fighter traps, defend forward where it makes sense, decide on the assets to expend in each area and make them count.

Oh, and have a plan as to what you are going to do...and do it. dont just react. You will do better.

Shape the battlefield to your advantage.

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RE: To Sir Robin or not Sir Robin in PBEM - 5/17/2011 7:49:18 AM

Sardaukar

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Sir Robin doesn't necessarily mean pulling everything back. Hit the enemy where you can, otherwise concentrate your power to what you think is important to keep.

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Post #: 30