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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 1:54:35 AM

princep01

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What am I missing here? You're worried about 8 CM coastal guns at PJ? That is slightly bigger than a 3" gun. I guess those could hurt an AK/AP if several hit, but they'd be harmless against anything bigger than a DD. I'm not sure anyone indoors on a BB would even notice that an 8 CM gun hit them. Surely this was a typo or these are some kind of depleted uranium sabot rounds fired from an incredible high velocity barrel. What gives? Why all the fret?

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 721

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 2:04:08 AM

Captain Cruft

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The "CD guns" at PJ are 240cm (8in) howitzers which classify as "army weapons", as opposed to "naval guns". I believe this means they will only shoot at transports unloading troops and the troops themselves, or in other words they act exactly the same as an artillery unit.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 722

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 5:57:09 AM

Cribtop

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I think Dan's fear was for the transports, not the BBs, as in a prior game he got the thin skins chewed up at PJ.

Princep, I do concur that, assuming Dan sticks with the plan to have two BBs in the invasion TF, he should be fine based on the size of the guns.

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Post #: 723

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 2:02:16 PM

princep01

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Cribtop, I was just teasing CR over an apparent typo. I am sure the guns at PJ are larger than the 8CM (roughly a 3" gun) he identified them as. Captain Cruft comes back and identifies the batteries as 240cm howitzers and calls them 8". Nope. First, if it was a 240CM gun, that would make it a 94 inch gun and, wow, even Jesus would stay away from that:). At 240mm, they would not be 8" howitzers either as an 8" howitzer is a 203mm piece. If they are indeed 240MM ordinance, then they are fomitable and would likely be called 9.2 inch (although they would really be 9.4").

All that teasing aside, I agree with your distribution of BBs and, assuming I really wanted the place, I would just go in there and take it. That blood thirsty, destroyer of electronic soldiers and sailors, Nemo, would not hesitate if the strategic>operational>tactical, multi-level analysis said, "Whoof! Whoof! Growl! Sic'em!:).

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Post #: 724

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 2:32:34 PM

kfsgo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

The "CD guns" at PJ are 240cm (8in) howitzers which classify as "army weapons", as opposed to "naval guns". I believe this means they will only shoot at transports unloading troops and the troops themselves, or in other words they act exactly the same as an artillery unit.

Yeah, they're not set up as CD guns - with an accuracy of 2 (versus f.e 31, 35 for 25cm, 20cm dedicated CD guns) I'm not sure I'd lose too much sleep over the things.

(in reply to Captain Cruft)

Post #: 725

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 2:33:36 PM

Canoerebel

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It's worth looking into, because in my game with Miller I had transports chewed alive by the coastal guns at Paramushiro. Unfortunately, I didn't keep clear notes of the amphibious TF makeup, though I strongly suspect I had nothing larger than destroyers embedded therein. (My memory is that I was mostly concerned about my escort carriers, as I had already lost a ton of carriers in that game; I saved the CVEs, lost alot of transports, and took the base...temporarily.)

My notes on the guns at Paramushiro indicate that there are four 24 CM howitzers and six 8 cm 4YTDP guns plus an array of AA guns. I know enough about the metric system to be able to convert centimeters to inches, but I know nothing about how Japan labeled it's guns. For all I know, 8 cm could be the width of the lanyard, while the shell was the equivalent of 8 inchers (I know that's not the case, but I'm just sayin' I'm ignorant enough to not know exactly what an 8 cm 4YTDP gun is capeable of other than what I saw vs. Miller. It was enough to get my full attention.

So...this morning I ran another test, this time with an amphibious TF escorted only by two destroyers (no BB and no CA and no preceeding bombardment TF). This time, the TF just flat ran away! I've never seen that before. The TF went in on turn one with orders to "do not retire"...but theree were no landings on day two or day three. When I opened the turn file, I found the TF skulking back around Attu Island. How does an amphib TF ignore orders and run away? I dunno.

I'm going to do some more testing later today. First, I'll try to resurrect the "destroyers only" TF. Later, I'll run a test with CA and DD escorts. Finally, I want to try one with three BB embedded in the amphib TF with no bombardment TF.

I'm proceeding with the invasion based upon yesterday's test, but I'm simply tweaking things to see if I can learn anything that might be of help.

(in reply to princep01)

Post #: 726

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 2:44:07 PM

kfsgo

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quote:

I'm going to do some more testing later today. First, I'll try to resurrect the "destroyers only" TF. Later, I'll run a test with CA and DD escorts. Finally, I want to try one with three BB embedded in the amphib TF with no bombardment TF.

I'm proceeding with the invasion based upon yesterday's test, but I'm simply tweaking things to see if I can learn anything that might be of help.

Are you really running these as 'start dec. 7 and plough through weeks of gametime' tests? I mean, I could make you a sandbox of Aleutians-to-Kuriles with the stuff you'll be using and expect to face in, gosh, ten minutes if you give me a quick list of what those are. Open offer!

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Post #: 727

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 3:56:25 PM

Canoerebel

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You must be handy with the editor. I've never opened the editor and have no idea how to use it. I could learn, but I don't want to. I'm an editor in real life, so editing in game life wouldn't be any fun.

I'm not asking anybody to use the editor to set up a test, because for all I know it would require 25 hours of intensive labor. But if somebody wants to take it on, and if it isn't asking that much, here's the basic force composition I'd love to see:

Date April 1, 1942 (so winter conditions not in effect).

Paramushiro Jima: instrinsic coastal defense unit, one small base force with no AV, a sqadron of patrol aircraft, level four forts, 2,000 supply.

Allied amphibious force: two slow BB, two CA, two DD, one DMS, one AM, 5 AP, 4 xAP, six xAK carrying perhaps a US Infantry division and a combat engineering unit 100% prepped. (If US infantry division won't fit for some reason, two RCT would suffice.)

Allied bombardment TF: BB Maryland, BB Warspite, two CA, six DD, one DMS.

Position these perhaps eight hexes north of Attu. This would allow me to test the enemy detection levels as I approach the patrol umbrella.

(in reply to kfsgo)

Post #: 728

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 4:27:19 PM

kfsgo

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Ok, more like 25 minutes than 10, but here you go - should work :

[n/m]

I put a bunch of stuff at Sapporo and Seward in case you want to try out any disaster fantasies. If you don't touch them they won't get involved.

e: here is a version where the combat engineers are actually prepped for the right place. derp:

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B1HrlfgCveF5ZDJiNWM5NGQtZDE3YS00OTZiLWFlYmQtYTcyNDNjN2YwNzcw&hl=en_GB&authkey=CPmb_OEJ

- The depot divisions won't all actually arrive at Sapporo, it's just the 'capital' of the scenario necessary to get land-based aircraft to appear.
- The 32nd Div leaves about 150 trucks behind given the requested TF, so I put some extra xAKs at the test launch base which you can use or not.

< Message edited by kfsgo -- 5/17/2011 4:53:00 PM >

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Post #: 729

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 4:48:27 PM

Canoerebel

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Thanks, kfsgo. I guess there's a big lesson to be learned if I'd be willing to learn it. I've spent six hours the past two day orchestrating awkward tests. I probably could've learned to use the editor in an hour or so and then run the tests in an hour.

I've just sent the next turn to Steve, so I'll work on the tests later this afternoon. I owe you one, kfsgo, but I don't know how I can repay you. However, if you need anybody to edit a work on Georgia history, botany, or ornithology, I'm your man.

(in reply to kfsgo)

Post #: 730

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 4:51:55 PM

kfsgo

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Eh, that's ok - I waste enough time fidding around with the thing for my own amusement that it's no big deal. The short answer to the original question is 'the naval fort is relatively toothless given battleships', apparently.

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Post #: 731

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 5:09:36 PM

Canoerebel

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3/18/42

Eastern DEI: Japanese TFs sighted between Makassar and Balikpan, with SigInt reported one unit on a maru bound for the latter. The base has no defenses, so it will fall in two days. The encouraging thing is that Steve continues a very methodical and safe course of action while the clock on his invasion bonus is about to strike midnight.

Western DEI: Still lots of IJ shipping from Mersing over to Singkawang/Kuching, but my fears that Steve might be planning to leap forward towards Sumatra in force have diminished considerably. Allied AV at Singapore is up to 876 (nearly 88% of what it was prior to the second Japanese shock attack several weeks ago). Steve is bringing heavy reinforcements to Singers, so I expect the base to fall in about a month. That's important, because there's an outside chance the Allies will have enough political points to orchestrate an invasion of western Sumatra before Singers falls. I think the bases taken by enemy paratroops are lightly held and poorly supplied. Retaking them would be a blow to enemy morale, would require a new offensive undertaking by Japan, and would restore Allied patrols that would give ample early warning of a move into the Bay of Bengal. In 12 days, the Allies will have enough PP to buy an Indian division at Bombay that has been prepping for Sabang for weeks. I could also throw in a US Army RCT and a Raider battalion. This operation would occur soon after the Allies invasion of the Kuriles, so it would keep Steve reeling.

Fortress Sumatra: When Japan is ready to move on eastern Sumatra, I would prefer that Steve invade at Oosthaven, Benkolen, or Padang rather than at Palembang. The Allied navy can oppose landings at the latter three, but not effectively at the former (both because BBs can't go up the river and because by that point sailing to Palembang will be most hazardous). Oosthaven is the most likely choice and will have the most coastal defense guns, with Benkolen second. I'll also keep some units in strategic mode so that I can shift strength from other bases to the likely target base as things develop. The Alles will use combined arms to hit the enemy at the invasion site (land, air, sea). If the enemy gets ashore strongly enough to take the invasion hex, the Allies will then begin configuring a fighting withdrawal of all units in eastern Sumatra towards Palembang. That base currently has level four forts, 125k supply, and is in marshy (3x defensive bonus) terrain. I would expect to have at least 2,500 AV there by the time the final fight comes, if ever. I think it will take Japan many months to wrap up a campaign for eastern Sumatra. During that long interval, the Allies should be able to go on the offensive in multiple theaters, beginning with NoPac.

India: 182nd RCT just arrived at Bombay. If the Allies strip Bombay of the three units referenced in the preceeding paragraph, the AV at Bombay will still be around 900 (because by then a new Indian division will have arrived on the map). I want enough there to provide a semblance of security until I'm 100% positive that Steve won't throw a hail mary at India once he takes Singapore. Prince of Wales will be ready to sail at Colombo in three days.

China: Japan hasn't moved yet. 1700 Chinese AV will arrive in the Changsha-to-Kweilin sector in a few weeks - these are reinforcements stripped from Sian months ago. Half of this force will be used as a mobile reserve for the Chengte-to-Changsha-to-Hengyang sector, the other half for the Kweilin-to-Liuchow sector.

NoPac: Forces still converging. The laggards are a TF included BBs Maryland and Idaho that are well northeast of Pearl Harbor. I think D-Day at Paramushiro will occur in 10 to 14 days.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 732

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 9:20:05 PM

Canoerebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B1HrlfgCveF5ZDJiNWM5NGQtZDE3YS00OTZiLWFlYmQtYTcyNDNjN2YwNzcw&hl=en_GB&authkey=CPmb_OEJ

I can't download the file from that site for some reason. If you see this and it's not an imposition, please email to ropersfive@aol.com.

Thanks.

(in reply to kfsgo)

Post #: 733

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 9:30:34 PM

paullus99

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Canoerebel - what's the situation in Burma? Does it even look like he's pressing you there at all (probably not by the lack of information posted about it in the AAR)?

I'm also surprised that the KB hasn't made its presence known yet - although it could be just behind the moves your starting to see develop.

How is your DEI-AF shaping up? I believe you should have a number of US Squadrons available now - enough, you wager, to make life interesting for a while?

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

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Post #: 734

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 9:51:28 PM

Nemo121

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KB will be doing something strategically non-vital somewhere. It should be tied up in port ( I'm not someone who thinks it should be deployed to the DEI. There is a surfeit of land bases, Japan should use them, they can't be sunk by a lucky sub strike. ) or doing something vital elsewhere but it won't be.

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Well, that's that settled then.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 10:08:56 PM

Canoerebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Canoerebel - what's the situation in Burma? Does it even look like he's pressing you there at all (probably not by the lack of information posted about it in the AAR)?

Japan isn't pressing hard in Burma - perhaps 450 AV slowly advancing up the roads will arrive at just-evacuated Mekteila and Magwe in a day or two. I have about 200 AV at Schwebo and I'm trying to decide whether to fight or withdraw. I would reinforce if I had political points, but I don't. His Burma army doesn't pose any threat to India in the foreseeable future.

quote:

How is your DEI-AF shaping up? I believe you should have a number of US Squadrons available now - enough, you wager, to make life interesting for a while?

The Allies have a massive airforce in Sumatra, and that airforce has pilots with some decent quality to back it up. I have to withdraw two good RAF Hurricane squadrons in 20 days, but I'll get reinforcements in.

Importantly, the Allies are building a decent network of airfields. Palembang is working on level six, I think Oosthaven is at level four, Benkolen just went to level three, and Padang is about to go to level two. Engineers have just begun working on the dot.airfield at Lahat.

Now, to reply to your question (and Nemo's observation) about the KB. I think in this case Steve needs everything he can muster - including the KB - to move on Sumatra ASAP (and given his current situation and the strength of the Allies I doubt his ASAP will/can be sooner than a month from now). The Allied air force is formidable. I don't expect it to be able to prevail in a sustained campaign, but it will go down fighting and take alot of the enemy along with it. The Allied navy may be able to go toe to toe with the Imperial navy. And the Allies will probably have carriers present. In my opinion, Steve will need everything available to successfully invade and then take Sumatra.

In the event he surpises me by posting the KB in SoPac to handle amphibious operations, or even in NoPac, I intend to take advantage of that situation in the DEI. In that event, I would reinforce Singapore (if that is still reasonably possible by that time) or expedite and amplify defensive and offensive activity in Sumatra.

(in reply to paullus99)

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 10:28:29 PM

Nemo121

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Well, KB's power lies in its airplanes... He can employ the airplanes from land bases without risking the CVs. That's what I meant, employ the planes but keep the decks in a nice, safe port somewhere far to the east.

If he holds Singers and southern Java ( which he should be the time he comes for Sumatra ) then there's no reason to risk his decks... He just might though.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 10:35:46 PM

Canoerebel

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If he holds Singers and western Java then he can cover by LBA if he invades at Palembang or Oosthaven. But I wonder about Benkolen and Padang. Invading there would be a bit forward and subject to Allied combat ships and carrier strikes if the KB isn't positioned nearby as a deterrent and counter. Or do you think he could still cover via LBA?

I want my carriers available for just that reason. If Steve tries to leap too far forward of his LBA, I can hit him all the more powerfully.

I won't expose my own carriers unless it gives me an advantage to do so. Under most circumstances, therefore, I plan to transfer my carrier-based air to airfields.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 5/17/2011 10:36:06 PM >

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Post #: 738

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/17/2011 11:14:10 PM

paullus99

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Just having your carriers available & in the area to provide a massive CAP umbrella for a SCTF run into his invasion fleet would be disasterous for him - and probably just what you have in mind.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

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Post #: 739

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 5:24:37 AM

kfsgo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B1HrlfgCveF5ZDJiNWM5NGQtZDE3YS00OTZiLWFlYmQtYTcyNDNjN2YwNzcw&hl=en_GB&authkey=CPmb_OEJ

I can't download the file from that site for some reason. If you see this and it's not an imposition, please email to ropersfive@aol.com.

Thanks.

Tried to; gmail apparently thinks something in it's an EXE so won't allow. I changed the vis settings to public-public rather than link-public so you should be able to grab it now.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 740

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 5:53:13 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B1HrlfgCveF5ZDJiNWM5NGQtZDE3YS00OTZiLWFlYmQtYTcyNDNjN2YwNzcw&hl=en_GB&authkey=CPmb_OEJ

I can't download the file from that site for some reason. If you see this and it's not an imposition, please email to ropersfive@aol.com.

Thanks.

Tried to; gmail apparently thinks something in it's an EXE so won't allow. I changed the vis settings to public-public rather than link-public so you should be able to grab it now.

If you encrypt it (and maybe make sure the name doesn't imply that it's an executable) you can get executables through Gmail.

(in reply to kfsgo)

Post #: 741

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 4:01:28 PM

Canoerebel

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3/19/42

Eastern DEI: The Japanese invade Balikpan, probably losing two xAK in the process (one to mines the other to shore guns).

Western DEI: The mass of enemy shipping remains in the South China Sea covering Mersing and Singkawang/Kuching. The Allies landed a small Aussie pioneer unit at Cocos Isalnd to provide a measure of defense. I've really been debating whether garrisoning this island is worthwhile, but finally decided I may do so up to about 100 AV if time permits. The Allies will also move the Sabang invasion troops by rail from Bombay to Madras, so that once the PP are available to buy the Indian division (about 12 days), the invasion will have a bit of a head start. Singapore's AV is up to 881.

China: Still no move by the enemy facing the Siangtan front.

NoPac: The Para and Onne troop transports will be at the rendezvous long before the final two BBs (Maryland and Idaho) arrive. I'll wait for them, though, as they should be in position in about six to eight days. D-Day is perhaps ten days away.

SoPac: The Japanese invaded and took undefended Lord Howe Island, just east of Sydney. Steve continues to push hard in this theater, though I don't believe he'll go "whole hog" for New Zealand or Australia given the situation in the DEI. He may think that's an effective way of applying pressure on the Allies, but he can have all of SoPac if in doing so he impales himself.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 5/18/2011 4:03:58 PM >

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 742

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 4:50:49 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Thanks, kfsgo. I guess there's a big lesson to be learned if I'd be willing to learn it. I've spent six hours the past two day orchestrating awkward tests. I probably could've learned to use the editor in an hour or so and then run the tests in an hour.

I've just sent the next turn to Steve, so I'll work on the tests later this afternoon. I owe you one, kfsgo, but I don't know how I can repay you. However, if you need anybody to edit a work on Georgia history, botany, or ornithology, I'm your man.

Feel the same way at times Dan!

The Editor is not TOO bad. With all the work done in RA, it has become a friend of sorts. Since I am NOT a computer person (you might remember that from our Grand Campaign in WitP) this came as a pleasant surprise!

_____________________________

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 743

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 6:03:32 PM

vettim89

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Your situation is very similar to what Nomad and I had in our 2x2 game. We had an even stronger death grip on southern Sumatra (over 900 AS at Palembang with level 5 + forts), but our opponents held all of the New Hebrides, new Caledonia, Fija, Somoa, and the Tonga Islands. Our game ended in May 1942 when we lost our fourth IJ opponent. Figured it would be imp[ossible to get another to sign on for the duration with that strategic situation. I was in charge of SoPac and had a good defense set up in French Polynesia, Oz, and NZ. WIth us still holding Palembag, they had a lot of territory but did not hold the territory they needed.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 744

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 6:16:02 PM

Canoerebel

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Since this is Scenario Two, the situation is pretty unusual. The Allied grip on eastern Sumatra does not pose any threat to Japan's economic well being for many months - maybe even well over a year - if I understand the analysis done by Alfred. Of course, it is possible that the Japanese player won't realize this and will panic unnecessarily, but I think Steve knows the lay of the land.

So in Scenario Two, the problem with a strong Allied grip on Sumatra isn't the threat to the Japanese economy, but rather that it creates a massive Allied presence in a vital area. Usually, the Allies have to struggle forward in late '42 or '43 to gain a threshhold in the Japan's vitals, but that exercise can be avoided if the Allies are already strongly lodged there.

So this campaign is really about posing a military threat to Japan's MLR. Japan is going to have to address that threat sooner or later (and sooner would have been much more efficient). While Japan is doing so, the Allies may/should be able to take advantage to strike in other regions. Nemo did just that in his game vs. One-Eyed-Jacks and I hope to do something similar in this game.

If Steve concentrates on New Zealand, Australia, or some other distant vector at this point, I'm pretty sure the Allies will be able to reinforce Sumatra strongly enough that it will never fall. At that point, the Allies have already achieved what I might otherwise be working on in late '43 or early '44. And by then Japan certainly would be in a crisis due to the lack of Palembang's oil.

(in reply to vettim89)

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 7:32:01 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Well, KB's power lies in its airplanes... He can employ the airplanes from land bases without risking the CVs. That's what I meant, employ the planes but keep the decks in a nice, safe port somewhere far to the east.

I doubt many Allied players would be very happy with that strategy.

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 746

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 7:34:28 PM

Nemo121

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Aye, people generally don't like to be faced by situations they didn't expect and don't have a counter to. On the other hand this isn't, "Make your opponent happy in the Pacific" ( which sounds like some Thai bar in Pattaya )

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 747

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 7:58:37 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Aye, people generally don't like to be faced by situations they didn't expect and don't have a counter to. On the other hand this isn't, "Make your opponent happy in the Pacific" ( which sounds like some Thai bar in Pattaya )

I recently started a new game as the Japs and I have to be honest in saying that the thought of doing the above had never even occurred to me. Surely once the defensive perimiter is set up you would be reducing the KB to the role of a huge aircraft ferry shuttling its air groups form the land base to another to counter the latest threat.

I think most Allied players (whether it be justified or not) would complain about this tactic. Just my 2c.........

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 748

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 8:02:56 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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It's a valid tactic similar to the Allies stripping carriers in '42 to base carrier aircraft in the DEI. I can't imagine an Allied player complaining...or, well, I should say I wouldn't attach any validity to the complaints.

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 749

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 5/18/2011 8:04:35 PM

Smeulders

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline

Well, you would need the aviation support in place and large enough airfields. It's not a tactic that can be used anytime anywhere.

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 750