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Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/19/2011 9:32:19 PM   
tbone1218

 

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What do you soviet players usually change your settings too?
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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/19/2011 10:27:21 PM   
Mehring

 

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Don't look for a fixed solution to a fluid situation. Set your doctrine according to the co-relation of forces and what you're trying to achieve at a given moment.

Whatever you set them to, you will still find that bombers fly unescorted sometimes and fighters perform useless solo interdiction missions, but that's the air war as it stands. Look for patterns to emerge from your settings, not instant results.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 9:55:13 AM   
arras

 

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Here is my advice:

First thing to do is to stop German attacks on your airfields. You want to make them too costly for Germans. Which means ratio of one your aircraft destroyed for one of his. To accomplish this I do following:

Change air doctrine all to 0% except air interception. Turn that one to more than 100%.

Set percentage of reddy aircraft needed to fly to 10-20%. You want them all in the air when German bombers come. On the ground they are just targets.

Get your front line air commands some better leaders.

Send most or all of the bomber squadrons from front line airfields in to the reserve. They would be just target practice for German fighters and bombers.

You may leave long range airfields staffed switching to night missions to supply partisans. But move them back it to interior to prevent German raids.

Make sure each active front have unit of recon planes.

Put your airfields bit back from front line to prevent them being overrun by enemy spearheads. This will also make them slightly harder to bomb.

Make sure they all are within range of support from their air HQ.

Stuff them with fighter units which have experience and morale close or above 50. Send all units with low morale and low number of aircraft (total) to Reserve. Bring fresh ones instead.

Do not be afraid to use those I-15 and I-16 units. If you do not have units with better aircraft, use them where you need. Just make sure they have morale and experience and enough aircraft to fly.

Try to put 3-4 fighter units in to each front line airfield.

It will take few turns to arrange all this but if you do it properly, after some time you should get that 1:1 casualty figure against his bombing raids which should see him slowly ceasing attacks on your airfields. Your fighter units should be able to maintain reasonable number or ready aircraft by then (>50%) and maintain morale (>50). Than is time to bring bombers back and start supporting your grunts on the ground. But do it carefully and don't do it piecemeal. Start with one front at the time and see what it does.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 11:56:19 AM   
76mm


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arras, your air tactics are interesting in that they are almost completely the opposite of mine (not that I claim mine are particularly effective); is this what you do only in the early game, and if so, when do you transaction to a different approach?

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 12:38:37 PM   
Mehring

 

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arras, if you base your advice on your stated loss ratio, you are way off whack. The Russians can, in general, lose 3 x as many aircraft as the Germans and still come out on top. If it's Il-4s and Pe8 you're losing at such a rate you're wasting them, but I'd happily trade 10 biplanes for 1 bf109 F4, regularly do so, and win big in the air. The most effective way to defeat the Luftwafe as the game stands is not to skulk around in the interior but to bomb it back.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 12:50:03 PM   
Tarhunnas


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If the German is sending planes to bomb Soviet airfields after turn 1 I am just happy. That means he will not get as much ground support for his units, which I think is a lot more important.

The one thing I do with the air settings as the Soviet is to up the interdiction number. Interdiction attacks will cost the exploiting German units MPs, which can seriously mess up German plans for a pocketing thrust. Interdiction attacks are IMHO the most effective way for "Stalins Falcons" to contribute to stopping the Germans in 1941.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 12:56:39 PM   
76mm


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Tarhunnas, I've done the same, although not until 1942. What did you put your interdiction setting to?

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 3:32:34 PM   
arras

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

arras, your air tactics are interesting in that they are almost completely the opposite of mine (not that I claim mine are particularly effective); is this what you do only in the early game, and if so, when do you transaction to a different approach?

Just for few starting turns. Against AI it is typically first 6-7 turns. Against human it depends on his actions.

Goal is to win sky over my own airfields and have them field effective force without it been reduced by bombing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

arras, if you base your advice on your stated loss ratio, you are way off whack. The Russians can, in general, lose 3 x as many aircraft as the Germans and still come out on top. If it's Il-4s and Pe8 you're losing at such a rate you're wasting them, but I'd happily trade 10 biplanes for 1 bf109 F4, regularly do so, and win big in the air. The most effective way to defeat the Luftwafe as the game stands is not to skulk around in the interior but to bomb it back.

Well if my forces are bombed and squadrons operate with most of their planes damaged or destroyed and morale down to the ground, they will accomplish very little. So no it is not based on loss ratio only. That is secondary issue.

What good can squadron do if it fly 4 aircraft out of 20?

Besides bombers are not shooting his aircraft down. Even my fighters are not in the shape to do it. 10:1 is way to optimistic. So why not to send those bombers to safety and let fighters work his bombers?

Besides I believe number of destroyed aircraft on the ground is proportionate to number of aircraft stationed on bombed airfield. (I am not sure if that is how it works but it is common sense)

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 3:40:29 PM   
arras

 

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I was able to beat his rides at the turn 6 with 10 of German bombers lost against 3 of my fighters. On that loss rate, they can not continue bombing my airfields on large scale. (Well AI can but even AI seems to scale them down).

< Message edited by arras -- 5/20/2011 3:44:03 PM >

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 5:35:35 PM   
Mehring

 

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The more I read the more opponents I face, the clearer it becomes that Russian players maximising the potential of their airforce and German players trying to make sure they can't, are a tiny minority.

quote:

If the German is sending planes to bomb Soviet airfields after turn 1 I am just happy. That means he will not get as much ground support for his units, which I think is a lot more important.


He'll get enough ground support as long as he suppresses the growth of the Russian airforce. And if he destroys your airforce before you destroy his, he'll probably have the last laugh.

quote:

Besides bombers are not shooting his aircraft down. Even my fighters are not in the shape to do it. 10:1 is way to optimistic. So why not to send those bombers to safety and let fighters work his bombers?


No. Bombers bomb fighters before they take off and after they land. Escorts make sure the bombers get to their target and you needn't be too fussed how many you lose so long as the bombers reach their target.

He're from Turn 25 of my current PBEM, after bad weather has curtailed activity a bit.






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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 7:04:40 PM   
heliodorus04


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Mehring, can you give any advice on what the German should do after Turn 1 with his air force, then?
Looks like you're doing a fine fine job against the German. 


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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 8:05:21 PM   
Ketza


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Mehring I have had several Soviet players attempt to bomb my Axis airfields but in every case they have been slaughtered trying to do so.

Its clear in the OOB you posted the German airforce is hurting but is that because they have low CAP percentages and have availability settings set to high or is this typical of all your games against various Axis opponents?

I typically run 120% cap and 5-10% flying rate and if the Soviets come out to play maintain a miminum of 5-1 losses in my favor but often times much higher.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 8:22:49 PM   
Mehring

 

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@ heliodorus04

As German or Russian, your airforce's strategic objective is almost universal in my view- achieve and maintain air superiority. How you do that and what you do with it is entirely relative to the co-relation of forces, army operational objectives and what the opposing airforce does.

I'd say that whatever situation you're in, the German should be trying to wipe out the Russian airforce, or at least, to stop it from becoming a menace. That's a full time job unless you get to overrun a lot of factories. Playing German, what makes me fret is seeing a field stuffed with IL-4s that I can't destroy. I know all that's stopping the Russian from causing mayhem in my bases is the belief that he can't do so. If you ever get to the point that the Russian airforce is too strong to take on, you've lost the air war and probably the game with it.

If the Russian withdraws their fleet to reserve or way back, you will have fun in the short term. If they withdraw long enough, your air superiority might even win you the game if you are bold enough on land. I haven't tried 1.04 yet, but I like the idea of interdiction giving reduced casualties while reducing enemy movement more. I'd happily swap 1500 dead interdicted Russians for an entire division that never got out of my pocket.

There are two ways I've found to take on the Russians and keep their numbers down. First and foremost, never relent on bombing their airfields until you're consistently suffering unsustainable losses. If you have put in a bad raid or two, check the report and figure out what's causing it. It may be bad luck but then it may be you need to switch targets. I think that HQs often have a lot of AA. Try not to fly over them. If one air base or air army is too well protected, switch to another. Don't just give up cos you had a bad day.

Secondly, If the Russian tries to mix it with your fighters, you will have a field day, but watch his targets! He's escorting bombers to hit your airfields. Say he sends 200 fighters to escort 150 bombers. You shoot down 30-40 fighters but his bombers may well destroy 10-15 fighters on the ground. Next raid you won't have so many interceptors, and so it goes on. You know how fragile your fighter groups are, but Russian air regts are not. There are shed loads of them. Do the math, he's won.

Counter measures I'd try if anyone ever got bold with their bombers is obviously to stuff the bases with FlaK, particularly heavies to get the level bombers. Also, mix your assets at each base. There's nothing I love so much playing Russian as to find a whole Jagdgeschwader or whatever they're called parked on one field. Hit that field hard ten times and you can probably fly unescorted bombers to finish off the bomber bases nearby. So, spread out your fighters. You can also use empty staging bases close to the front and keep your planes relatively safely in the rear, but clearly there's a price to pay for that.

His ground support and interdiction missions should be a cause for your celebration if your interception settings are high enough. Your fighters will always get the better of his, at least in 41-42, I don't know about later, and will sometimes maul his bombers too, particularly if they're unescorted. If the Russian is clumbsy with his doctrine and targetting, you might be able to keep his numbers in check just by intercepting his missions.

Hope that's a help and let me know how you get on.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 8:29:17 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Mehring I have had several Soviet players attempt to bomb my Axis airfields but in every case they have been slaughtered trying to do so.

Its clear in the OOB you posted the German airforce is hurting but is that because they have low CAP percentages and have availability settings set to high or is this typical of all your games against various Axis opponents?

I typically run 120% cap and 5-10% flying rate and if the Soviets come out to play maintain a miminum of 5-1 losses in my favor but often times much higher.

I've been using these tactics in three PBEMs. Thier success involves taking savage losses amongst interceptors in the knowledge that if I persist I'll win. I'm not sure what settings my opponents use, but their interceptors do fly.

I also nurture my airforce, cycling inexperienced and demoralised units back to reserve and replenished units out, every turn. It's a lot of micromanagement.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/20/2011 11:53:09 PM   
heliodorus04


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I handle the micro-management of the air forces well enough.  I've just been looking for ways to enhance effectiveness.

Do you prefer 1 raid with a large number of bombers + escort, or several smaller missions?

I have found with the Axis that it's the He-111 that slams air fields.  Do you agree?  Of course, that's for T1 that I've really noticed.  Everything else so far has been unproductive, so I was slowly starting to think to myself: the air war is broken and doesn't need to be bothered with.


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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/21/2011 1:06:03 AM   
Mehring

 

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In my experience big raids are better than small and less costly for some reason. Repeat until you can't or the target's destroyed. The only proviso is to make sure you can bomb your important ground targets, so do that b4 you move on the airfields.

It looks to me like level bombers beat tactical in airfield raids in every way. I seldom if ever use Stukas or Go's or 110's. I think the losses they sustain put players off bombing altogether, but I assume that it's because they get the light AA that can't touch the level bombers. Use them for ground support.

As for effectiveness, I think it's down to payoad. Dornier 17s aren't as good as Heinkel 111s which aren't as good as Junkers 88, which aren't as good as the later Dorniers (Z?)

I don't think the air war is broke but everyone knows it needs some serious tweeking. I'd like to see interceptors get through my clouds of biplane escorts to get to the bombers more. With their speed, German fighters should probably be able to dodge the escorts more, particularly when it's their base being raided, and go for what they know's going to hurt their airfield most.

Till then, I'll keep looking for what works in the game.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/21/2011 1:14:37 AM   
Ridgeway

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

In my experience big raids are better than small and less costly for some reason. Repeat until you can't or the target's destroyed. The only proviso is to make sure you can bomb your important ground targets, so do that b4 you move on the airfields.

It looks to me like level bombers beat tactical in airfield raids in every way. I seldom if ever use Stukas or Go's or 110's. I think the losses they sustain put players off bombing altogether, but I assume that it's because they get the light AA that can't touch the level bombers. Use them for ground support.

As for effectiveness, I think it's down to payoad. Dornier 17s aren't as good as Heinkel 111s which aren't as good as Junkers 88, which aren't as good as the later Dorniers (Z?)

I don't think the air war is broke but everyone knows it needs some serious tweeking. I'd like to see interceptors get through my clouds of biplane escorts to get to the bombers more. With their speed, German fighters should probably be able to dodge the escorts more, particularly when it's their base being raided, and go for what they know's going to hurt their airfield most.

Till then, I'll keep looking for what works in the game.


I have found that the engine seems to punish you for "micromanaging" AF attacks. I find that I get better results if I simply right-click on the target, rather than shift-right clicking and seeking to optimize the raid. It is hard to compare apples-to-apples, but if I just right click until I run out of planes, I usually kill around 5200-5500 units at a cost of around 100. If I shift-right click, the results are significantly worse by the time I run out of available a/c. What definitely does not work is letting the AI handle the whole thing though -- that will usually get you around 3500 max.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/21/2011 1:21:25 AM   
Zebedee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

I have found that the engine seems to punish you for "micromanaging" AF attacks. I find that I get better results if I simply right-click on the target, rather than shift-right clicking and seeking to optimize the raid. It is hard to compare apples-to-apples, but if I just right click until I run out of planes, I usually kill around 5200-5500 units at a cost of around 100. If I shift-right click, the results are significantly worse by the time I run out of available a/c. What definitely does not work is letting the AI handle the whole thing though -- that will usually get you around 3500 max.



If you turn the requirement to fly down, then for first turn with the AI selecting units you can get 5.2kish for the German airfield whackathon (still held true under .16 beta anyways).

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/21/2011 1:23:40 AM   
Ridgeway

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

I have found that the engine seems to punish you for "micromanaging" AF attacks. I find that I get better results if I simply right-click on the target, rather than shift-right clicking and seeking to optimize the raid. It is hard to compare apples-to-apples, but if I just right click until I run out of planes, I usually kill around 5200-5500 units at a cost of around 100. If I shift-right click, the results are significantly worse by the time I run out of available a/c. What definitely does not work is letting the AI handle the whole thing though -- that will usually get you around 3500 max.



If you turn the requirement to fly down, then for first turn with the AI selecting units you can get 5.2kish for the German airfield whackathon (still held true under .16 beta anyways).



I always set it to 10% in T1 -- I will admit that I have not tried a full AI "whack-a-thon" in a long time, though.

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RE: Soviet Air Doctrine settings - 5/21/2011 1:31:23 AM   
Zebedee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

I always set it to 10% in T1 -- I will admit that I have not tried a full AI "whack-a-thon" in a long time, though.


I did it a few times and was pleased with the results over the previous times I'd tried in previous betas and higher settings. Still don't trust the AI to hit the right targets or even all the ones which it could though.

One of the things for LW I haven't really worked out is when to turn that back up rather than relying on micromanaging the units. Axis minors (I'm looking at you Romania) can struggle to put anything up in the air after a few turns if you turn it back up but the ops losses can be crippling especially given that a lot of your air strikes need to go off in the Soviet turn (I love my interdictions on Soviet movement).

Another thing I do tend to do is make sure that my German mobile units have some access to AA support - the Soviet airforce is awful by and large when trying to do things under German fighter cover, but once you get beyond that with your mobile units Soviet interdiction can be a real pain in just hammering fatigue levels up.

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