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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 12:58:05 PM   
berto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Rename location 623 Balinta pass - the trail system is also correct here - for a communications route from the Northern Ilagan Valley into the central plain of Luzon. It needs to be defined as mountains as well.

Sorry, one more possible correction.

Are you referring to Balete Pass (aka Dalton Pass)?

< Message edited by berto -- 5/23/2011 12:09:53 AM >


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(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 61
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 1:43:36 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


As I recall, MacArthur's plan was to concentrate for the defense of Luzon and Mindanao. Del Monte, on Mindanao, was to be a major airbase.

If shipping and the Japanese had allowed, I believe the entire 71st and 91st Divisions would have moved to Luzon. The actual movement started after hostilities, and I do not know the planned schedule pre-war. Or, indeed, if they would have moved at all. Additional CD defenses were being planned for the Visayas.

The 61st and 81st were to move to Mindanao, a movement that also began after war broke out.

In all cases, only portions of the Visayas divisions completed the move.

Another problem is the long-term goal of a full corps for each military district. Not to be completed until 1946, but at some time (soon?) the mobilization of the second divsion in each district would have begun. Note that Panay was able to raise two more (under equiped) regiments before being overrun. The first division might have moved while the units of the second defended the Visayas??



Hi Don

From what I read even MacArthur didnt think Mindanao was defensible and because it was outside his defense perimeter he told Washington that Del Monte would not due for the planned bomber base. Del Monte would serve as an auxillary base and for expediancy temporarliy serve as the 7th BG base until the Cebu base could be developed. USAFFE maintained that with the completion of the Inland Seas Defence project and in-shore patrol that the Visayas could be defended. It was thought that Cebu also had the advantage of being far enough away as to be imune to Japanese attack but close enough to allow B-17 and B-24 to strike enemy targets. It was only after the early start of the war made the Cebu base in Inland Seas Defence project moot that the decision was made to concentrate on Mindanao to protect the now only practical base Del Monte. Both Sharp and Chenweyth were posted to there commands prior to out break of the war so it doesnt appear that the Panay and Cebu Divisions were going anywhere.


What you say makes sense. I do know that an air base unit was already in route from the US for Del Monte, but that could be because it was a staging base of the sourhern air transport route.

I have no resources for anything else. Do you have any additional book references? Love to read more on this.

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 62
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 2:43:20 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
As I recall, MacArthur's plan was to concentrate for the defense of Luzon and Mindanao. Del Monte, on Mindanao, was to be a major airbase.

If shipping and the Japanese had allowed, I believe the entire 71st and 91st Divisions would have moved to Luzon. The actual movement started after hostilities, and I do not know the planned schedule pre-war. Or, indeed, if they would have moved at all. Additional CD defenses were being planned for the Visayas.

The 61st and 81st were to move to Mindanao, a movement that also began after war broke out. In all cases, only portions of the Visayas divisions completed the move.

Another problem is the long-term goal of a full corps for each military district. Not to be completed until 1946, but at some time (soon?) the mobilization of the second divsion in each district would have begun. Note that Panay was able to raise two more (under equiped) regiments before being overrun. The first division might have moved while the units of the second defended the Visayas??

Hi Don

From what I read even MacArthur didnt think Mindanao was defensible and because it was outside his defense perimeter he told Washington that Del Monte would not due for the planned bomber base. Del Monte would serve as an auxillary base and for expediancy temporarliy serve as the 7th BG base until the Cebu base could be developed. USAFFE maintained that with the completion of the Inland Seas Defence project and in-shore patrol that the Visayas could be defended. It was thought that Cebu also had the advantage of being far enough away as to be imune to Japanese attack but close enough to allow B-17 and B-24 to strike enemy targets. It was only after the early start of the war made the Cebu base in Inland Seas Defence project moot that the decision was made to concentrate on Mindanao to protect the now only practical base Del Monte. Both Sharp and Chenweyth were posted to there commands prior to out break of the war so it doesnt appear that the Panay and Cebu Divisions were going anywhere.

Yeah. Lots of problems crop up. About the only solution I can think of is to go with Ltr Orders, CG USAFFE to CG NLF, SLF, V-MF, 3 Dec 4l, AG 381 (12-3-41), which details the force composition of the three main commands (NLF, SLF, V-MF). Put units where they are supposed to be, given a completed training cycle. I think, according to USAFFE-USFIP Rpt of Opns, 4 Nov 41, that Mindanao was indeed part of Mac's planning. It was definitely part of his perimiter; it was called the Visayan-'Mindanao' Force, after all . Perhaps Cebu figured more prominently as a potential future air base, but Del Monte was nevertheless in the box.

Perhaps the best way to work this is to move the start date to Jan 7, 42 and assume that the Pensacola convoy arrived, and all the troops, planes, and goodies sitting at SFO got there too. Ending up with a nicely reinforced and better equipped US Army contingent, up to strength and better equipped PA units, a fleshed out PC, some more CA and CA(AA). i.e., not presume Mac's defense project was completed; think that would open too many cans of worms, especially of the Japanese variety.

Facing a full boogie defense, doubt they would have assigned just 2 divs and a brigade for the op. Would have barfed the whole PI/Malaya/Burma/DEI deployment schedule. Also doubt that Japan would schedule anything in the Southern area after January. Hydrology and met conditions would obviate against it. Given that Japan doesn't get anything beyond what was actually available, perhaps a "reinforced" PI, rather than a "fortress" PI will be a hard enough nut to crack.

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Post #: 63
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 4:33:08 PM   
TIMJOT

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


What you say makes sense. I do know that an air base unit was already in route from the US for Del Monte, but that could be because it was a staging base of the sourhern air transport route.

I have no resources for anything else. Do you have any additional book references? Love to read more on this.


My most recent source is the excellent and highly recomended "Racing the Sunrise" Glen Williford Ch.14 pg 215

http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Sunrise-Reinforcement-Americas-1941-1942/dp/1591149568/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305818399&sr=1-1

A more detailed reference can be found in William Bartch's "December 8th 1941 MacArthurs Peral Harbor" Ch.7 pg 211-212.

http://www.amazon.com/December-1941-MacArthurs-University-Military/dp/1585442461/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305819184&sr=1-1

However I stress that a major bomber base in the Visayas was the "PLAN", whether or not it could have been completed prior to May 1942 is another matter. Although IIRC funding and additional EABs were were approved.

< Message edited by TIMJOT -- 5/19/2011 4:39:51 PM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 64
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 4:38:41 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


What you say makes sense. I do know that an air base unit was already in route from the US for Del Monte, but that could be because it was a staging base of the sourhern air transport route.

I have no resources for anything else. Do you have any additional book references? Love to read more on this.


My most recent source is the excellent and highly recomended "Racing the Sunrise" Glen Williford Ch.14 pg 215

http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Sunrise-Reinforcement-Americas-1941-1942/dp/1591149568/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305818399&sr=1-1

A more detailed reference can be found in William Bartch's "December 8th 1941 MacArthurs Peral Harbor" Ch.7 pg 211-212.

http://www.amazon.com/December-1941-MacArthurs-University-Military/dp/1585442461/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305819184&sr=1-1


I have both these books. Time to read them again - and a little more carefully.

Thanks.

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 65
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 4:42:29 PM   
TIMJOT

 

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No problem, as I said Bartch sites Mac directly, but whether or not the Visayas base could have been completed prior to May 1942 is another matter, but since this is a "what if" on Macs plan IMO it should be included.

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Post #: 66
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 7:12:36 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT
No problem, as I said Bartch sites Mac directly, but whether or not the Visayas base could have been completed prior to May 1942 is another matter, but since this is a "what if" on Macs plan IMO it should be included.

Well, it's not that big a deal to put some engineers there to get the ball rolling. Am seriously backing away from an April/May start. There's just too much speculation and assumptions with Mac's plans to provide a reasonable basis for a scenario. And then there's the Japanese; although South Army had limited resources, would the PI get the major proportion of 14, 15, 16 Armies, along with all Group holdings?

Think it best to go with 'what you see is what you get', but reinforced to the limits of what was in the actual pipeline. That would avoid the potential "what-if" questions and still give Japan a much harder nut to crack.

Going whole-hog is something somebody else is gonna have to do.

[ed] Mescaline is worth a try. Michoacan buds would work, too.

< Message edited by JWE -- 5/19/2011 7:16:01 PM >


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Post #: 67
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 10:12:03 PM   
TIMJOT

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Well, it's not that big a deal to put some engineers there to get the ball rolling. Am seriously backing away from an April/May start. There's just too much speculation and assumptions with Mac's plans to provide a reasonable basis for a scenario. And then there's the Japanese; although South Army had limited resources, would the PI get the major proportion of 14, 15, 16 Armies, along with all Group holdings?

Think it best to go with 'what you see is what you get', but reinforced to the limits of what was in the actual pipeline. That would avoid the potential "what-if" questions and still give Japan a much harder nut to crack.

Going whole-hog is something somebody else is gonna have to do.

[ed] Mescaline is worth a try. Michoacan buds would work, too.


Of course its your perogative but I thought the whole point of this mod was to see what if Mac got to implement his plan. I think between Morton, Bartch Williford and other sources we have a pretty good idea on what was going to be sent. You may need to make some educated assumptions on what specific units. As far as Japan IMO we can also make some educated assumptions. The 4th IJA and 56 IJA were both historically available to bolster the 14th Army. without weakening 15th and 16th armies. The monsoon does pose a problem but maybe at least a March start would allow enough margin for IJA operations and also allow Mac to get most of his stuff. Again your decision but dont really see the point to a what amounts to a Pencecola mode.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 68
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 2:15:35 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The key to an interesting game that MIGHT permit Allied victory is Baguio City ... A house there is still US territory - it is where Yamashita surrendered.

Didn't Yamashita in fact surrender at Kiangan, Ifugao?

REPLY: Nope. I have been to the house. You need permission from the US Embassy in Manila - in writing - to get past the security guards. It is preserved as a historical site for that reason. It is on Fort John Hay at the edge of the perade ground.

Look here.

I have relatives (by affinity) from Kiangan, and I've visited the Shrine on a couple of occasions. I believe that Kiangan was, in fact, Yamashita's last holdout.

REPLY: Probably. But when talked to, he said he would make them fight - he could surrender only if written orders were obtained from the Emperor - for legal reasons We agreed. The formal ceremony was set for Fort John Hay.

quote:

Rename location 623 Balinta pass - the trail system is also correct here - for a communications route from the Northern Ilagan Valley into the central plain of Luzon.

Also, it's the Cagayan Valley, named after the Cagayan River, the Philippine's longest and largest, that runs through the valley, south to north. Ilagan is the capital of Isabela Province, just one of several provinces in the Cagayan Valley Region. (I should know. I lived in Ilagan for a year, back in 1978. Indeed, I've visited every one of the places you mentioned. Ah, the memories.)


REPLY: Of course it is the Cagayan Valley - and Ilagan is just the hex name because it is a provincial capital. I am sort of from a village near Naguilian, on the Naguilian road - by adoption (there being no English word for "balikbayan" - nor legal or social concept in our country that expresses it - but the literal translation = "of the village").


(in reply to berto)
Post #: 69
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 2:16:47 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Rename location 623 Balinta pass - the trail system is also correct here - for a communications route from the Northern Ilagan Valley into the central plain of Luzon. It needs to be defined as mountains as well.

Sorry, one more possible correction.

Are you referring to Balete Pass (aka Dalton Pass)?

I've been through the Pass many times, and visited the Dalton Shrine there, too.

Look here.

BTW, the Yamashita Shrine in Ifugao is in the shape of a stylized Japanese pillbox, and one can enter inside. The Dalton Shrine is more like a spike, kind of a mini Washington Monument.



Maybe. I use the US Army spellings from The Fall of the Philippines.

Speaking of monuments, the village of Casilagan has one - they had to build a one lane road just to make it - the only one I ever saw in any village in any country. It is to my father in law - a Chinese who scouted - apparently effectively - the Japanese positions for the return up the Naguilian Road in 1944.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 5/20/2011 2:26:37 AM >

(in reply to berto)
Post #: 70
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 2:20:32 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


As I recall, MacArthur's plan was to concentrate for the defense of Luzon and Mindanao. Del Monte, on Mindanao, was to be a major airbase.

If shipping and the Japanese had allowed, I believe the entire 71st and 91st Divisions would have moved to Luzon. The actual movement started after hostilities, and I do not know the planned schedule pre-war. Or, indeed, if they would have moved at all. Additional CD defenses were being planned for the Visayas.

The 61st and 81st were to move to Mindanao, a movement that also began after war broke out.

In all cases, only portions of the Visayas divisions completed the move.

Another problem is the long-term goal of a full corps for each military district. Not to be completed until 1946, but at some time (soon?) the mobilization of the second divsion in each district would have begun. Note that Panay was able to raise two more (under equiped) regiments before being overrun. The first division might have moved while the units of the second defended the Visayas??



Hi Don

From what I read even MacArthur didnt think Mindanao was defensible and because it was outside his defense perimeter he told Washington that Del Monte would not due for the planned bomber base. Del Monte would serve as an auxillary base and for expediancy temporarliy serve as the 7th BG base until the Cebu base could be developed. USAFFE maintained that with the completion of the Inland Seas Defence project and in-shore patrol that the Visayas could be defended. It was thought that Cebu also had the advantage of being far enough away as to be imune to Japanese attack but close enough to allow B-17 and B-24 to strike enemy targets. It was only after the early start of the war made the Cebu base in Inland Seas Defence project moot that the decision was made to concentrate on Mindanao to protect the now only practical base Del Monte. Both Sharp and Chenweyth were posted to there commands prior to out break of the war so it doesnt appear that the Panay and Cebu Divisions were going anywhere.


What you say makes sense. I do know that an air base unit was already in route from the US for Del Monte, but that could be because it was a staging base of the sourhern air transport route.

I have no resources for anything else. Do you have any additional book references? Love to read more on this.



Del Monte - a plantation no less - was one of many strips on islands used to ferry B-17s to the theater. It was not an air base per se - just a place a big plane could land and refuel. It would have taken a lot of work to change that. The B-17 route crossed - criss crossed really - the Japanese mandated islands - and some of the fields became important later.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 71
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 2:24:33 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
As I recall, MacArthur's plan was to concentrate for the defense of Luzon and Mindanao. Del Monte, on Mindanao, was to be a major airbase.

If shipping and the Japanese had allowed, I believe the entire 71st and 91st Divisions would have moved to Luzon. The actual movement started after hostilities, and I do not know the planned schedule pre-war. Or, indeed, if they would have moved at all. Additional CD defenses were being planned for the Visayas.

The 61st and 81st were to move to Mindanao, a movement that also began after war broke out. In all cases, only portions of the Visayas divisions completed the move.

Another problem is the long-term goal of a full corps for each military district. Not to be completed until 1946, but at some time (soon?) the mobilization of the second divsion in each district would have begun. Note that Panay was able to raise two more (under equiped) regiments before being overrun. The first division might have moved while the units of the second defended the Visayas??

Hi Don

From what I read even MacArthur didnt think Mindanao was defensible and because it was outside his defense perimeter he told Washington that Del Monte would not due for the planned bomber base. Del Monte would serve as an auxillary base and for expediancy temporarliy serve as the 7th BG base until the Cebu base could be developed. USAFFE maintained that with the completion of the Inland Seas Defence project and in-shore patrol that the Visayas could be defended. It was thought that Cebu also had the advantage of being far enough away as to be imune to Japanese attack but close enough to allow B-17 and B-24 to strike enemy targets. It was only after the early start of the war made the Cebu base in Inland Seas Defence project moot that the decision was made to concentrate on Mindanao to protect the now only practical base Del Monte. Both Sharp and Chenweyth were posted to there commands prior to out break of the war so it doesnt appear that the Panay and Cebu Divisions were going anywhere.

Yeah. Lots of problems crop up. About the only solution I can think of is to go with Ltr Orders, CG USAFFE to CG NLF, SLF, V-MF, 3 Dec 4l, AG 381 (12-3-41), which details the force composition of the three main commands (NLF, SLF, V-MF). Put units where they are supposed to be, given a completed training cycle. I think, according to USAFFE-USFIP Rpt of Opns, 4 Nov 41, that Mindanao was indeed part of Mac's planning. It was definitely part of his perimiter; it was called the Visayan-'Mindanao' Force, after all . Perhaps Cebu figured more prominently as a potential future air base, but Del Monte was nevertheless in the box.

Perhaps the best way to work this is to move the start date to Jan 7, 42 and assume that the Pensacola convoy arrived, and all the troops, planes, and goodies sitting at SFO got there too. Ending up with a nicely reinforced and better equipped US Army contingent, up to strength and better equipped PA units, a fleshed out PC, some more CA and CA(AA). i.e., not presume Mac's defense project was completed; think that would open too many cans of worms, especially of the Japanese variety.

Facing a full boogie defense, doubt they would have assigned just 2 divs and a brigade for the op. Would have barfed the whole PI/Malaya/Burma/DEI deployment schedule. Also doubt that Japan would schedule anything in the Southern area after January. Hydrology and met conditions would obviate against it. Given that Japan doesn't get anything beyond what was actually available, perhaps a "reinforced" PI, rather than a "fortress" PI will be a hard enough nut to crack.


The campaign went badly from the Japanese point of view. Hamma was sacked! Never mind he was facing over 100,000 troops and they took away his best units too. It is the ONLY time the IJA fielded its "heavy force" - an artillery division really - and it broke the back of resistence in 20 minutes. US troops said they never experienced anything like it. But it came much later and was NOT planned at all. Japan thought we had a weak army - and in most respects it was true at the time. Only the Philippine Scouts were really able to stop a Japanese formation at will - using their brand new M-1 Garand rifles - never mind they were not veterans like the IJA.


(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 72
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 2:28:57 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Well, it's not that big a deal to put some engineers there to get the ball rolling. Am seriously backing away from an April/May start. There's just too much speculation and assumptions with Mac's plans to provide a reasonable basis for a scenario. And then there's the Japanese; although South Army had limited resources, would the PI get the major proportion of 14, 15, 16 Armies, along with all Group holdings?

Think it best to go with 'what you see is what you get', but reinforced to the limits of what was in the actual pipeline. That would avoid the potential "what-if" questions and still give Japan a much harder nut to crack.

Going whole-hog is something somebody else is gonna have to do.

[ed] Mescaline is worth a try. Michoacan buds would work, too.


Of course its your perogative but I thought the whole point of this mod was to see what if Mac got to implement his plan. I think between Morton, Bartch Williford and other sources we have a pretty good idea on what was going to be sent. You may need to make some educated assumptions on what specific units. As far as Japan IMO we can also make some educated assumptions. The 4th IJA and 56 IJA were both historically available to bolster the 14th Army. without weakening 15th and 16th armies. The monsoon does pose a problem but maybe at least a March start would allow enough margin for IJA operations and also allow Mac to get most of his stuff. Again your decision but dont really see the point to a what amounts to a Pencecola mode.


Mac had YEARS to implement his plan - and it was a lousy plan. See The Philippine Army. It needed TIME more than equipment. One battery had 110 75mm guns - the rest had none at all. The plan called to defend at the beaches with troops so bad none had trained above company level - and many had no shoes or boots. Many men in many divisions is less useful than some who have gear and a clue - see the Constabulary for example. Or the regulars of the US Army regiment and supporting units. Or the Marines.

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 73
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 6:44:51 AM   
berto


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< Message edited by berto -- 5/23/2011 8:01:07 PM >


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(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 74
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 7:31:00 AM   
berto


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< Message edited by berto -- 5/23/2011 8:01:20 PM >


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Post #: 75
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 10:14:06 AM   
el cid again

 

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I have relatives (by affinity) from Kiangan, and I've visited the Shrine on a couple of occasions. I believe that Kiangan was, in fact, Yamashita's last holdout.
[/quote]
REPLY: Probably. But when talked to, he said he would make them fight - he could surrender only if written orders were obtained from the Emperor - for legal reasons We agreed. The formal ceremony was set for Fort John Hay.
[/quote]
So maybe the whole story goes something like: Yamashita personally surrendered to American troops at his last combat holdout in Kiangan; but later on, as an American captive, formally surrendered his IJA command at Baguio?

REPLY: That misses the point of the history. Yamashita was TOO STRONG to force out - not worth the cost in lives and time. SO they honored his requet to get written orders. There must have been a preliminary discussion somewhere - and I don't know where that was - so maybe it happened where you think it did? But it was only an agreement in principle, he returned to the field, and only after orders were obtained did he go to the place the event happened.
We were pretty ruthless by then - see the fate of Fort Drum - they burned em out. If we could have forced his hand, we would have done.


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Post #: 76
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 10:17:08 AM   
el cid again

 

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[/quote]
There's a Naguilian along the National Highway (just south of Gamu) in Isabela Province, too. At first take, that's the Naguilian I thought you were referring to.

If our finances don't work out, my wife and I might be forced to retire in the Philippines. So we, too, can be balikbayan. Not by choice, though.
[/quote]


The more famous Naguilian is the one after which the Naguilian Road is named. It was the first road to Baguio. Gold up there was unreachable before that - the several Spanish expeditions died trying. It was a major engineering achievement of the US administration. It is about 15 km from the coast at Buang, where it meets Highway 1 - about 8 km South of San Fernando. Just NE of Naguilian is a tiny one lane road - just a track when I first saw it - leading to Casilagan - my village.

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Post #: 77
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 1:12:09 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT
Of course its your perogative but I thought the whole point of this mod was to see what if Mac got to implement his plan. I think between Morton, Bartch Williford and other sources we have a pretty good idea on what was going to be sent. You may need to make some educated assumptions on what specific units. As far as Japan IMO we can also make some educated assumptions. The 4th IJA and 56 IJA were both historically available to bolster the 14th Army. without weakening 15th and 16th armies. The monsoon does pose a problem but maybe at least a March start would allow enough margin for IJA operations and also allow Mac to get most of his stuff. Again your decision but dont really see the point to a what amounts to a Pencecola mode.

It's a lot more than just Pensacola. Everything stacked up at SFO comes in as well. So Mac gets the 34th and 161st IRs, all the arty units, the engineers, the planes, the base and material Bns, as well as 380 odd ATGs, 500 odd MGs, real-live Brandt 81s, at least 50 105mm, more 3in AAA, some CD tubes, two dancing bears ... there was 1,100,000 tons of stuff at SFO FoB Manila in November 41, quite a bit of it actually scheduled for departure mid December. And Mac gets his Q-boats, too.

What I don't want to get into is redefining the underlying base structure of the PI and the entire operational scheme. Need to put a stake in the ground somewhere, so the campaign is fundamentally the same; just a heck of a lot more of it.

The date doesn't matter that much, it's a nice convenience for editing scheduled arrivals and sinkings, etc.. Can call it whatever. Assumption is PA troops have gone through the 13 week basic training cycle and units have had the 5 week Bn/Rgt course. Maybe they started a few weeks earlier, who can tell?

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Post #: 78
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 1:27:39 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Been nattering with Uncle Don on some PI things and he suggested a short map scenario with a May 1, '42 opening day might be interesting. It would give Dougie a lot of the things he asked for and make the PI into a real live, honest to gosh, campaign. It will be based on the detailed OOB and delivery schedule research done by Don Bowen.

This will be a CPX-style scenario. It will exist in a vacuum and is not subject to 'what if' constraints. It will be detailed in a manner similar to the Babes-style DEI scenario.

Any interest from the community?



Interesting notion John, but with one observation. Training a Philippine Army Division would take a minimum of one full year (probably more given the lack of officer material). So to give Mac what he wanted would mean pushing the scenario start back to about September of 1942---or assuming he recieved approval, funding, and equipment much earlier (not really possible as the US was still gearing up to produce much of what he would need). That was always the biggest problem with Mac's "plan"..., he tried to implement it at least 9 months before he had the force to do it.

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Post #: 79
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 7:19:17 PM   
JWE

 

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Well, mammy always said if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. But too many folks have too many different ideas about what's right. So maybe we'll just give this one a pass.

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Post #: 80
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 7:40:13 PM   
treespider


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It's a tough "what-if" ---its not like Mac's requests were being denied...from my short read it's more of a pinch finding available shipping to get the stuff there in a timely fashion.

To me a better "what-if" rather than delaying the start of the war is to assume that shipping was available to get Mac his stuff and start the bloody thing on Dec 7.

quote:

The first official War Department program for a large-scale reinforcement of the Philippines during this period was proposed by War Plans on 14 August. In a memorandum for the Chief of Staff, General Gerow argued that those reasons which had limited the size of the Philippine garrison--lack of funds, personnel, and equipment, plus the inability of the Navy to support a large force--were no longer entirely valid. With its present strength, he pointed out, there was a real doubt in the Philippine garrison could resist a Japanese attack, a contingency which he considered probably in view of Japan's attitude. To strengthen the garrison and increase its chances of holding Luzon and especially Manila Bay, General Gerow recommended that the Philippines be reinforced by antiaircraft artillery, modern combat planes, and tanks. The amount that could be sent, Gerow admitted, would be limited by the number of ships available for transport duty to he Far East. "The best that can be done at the moment," therefore, would be "to adopt a definite plan of reinforcement and carry it forward as availability of shipping permits."[6]

Gerow's recommendations were approved and two days later, on 16 August, General MacArthur was notified that the following units would sail from San Francisco between 27 August and 5 September: the 200th Coast Artillery Regiment (AA) consisting of 76 officers and 1,681 enlisted men; the 194th Tank Battalion (less Company B), with 54 tanks, 34 officers, and 390 enlisted men; and one company (155 men) of the 17th Ordnance Battalion.[7]

There had been some mention earlier of the possibility of sending a division to the Philippines, and on 5 September the Chief of Staff asked MacArthur if he wanted a National Guard division (probably the 41st). MacArthur replied that he did not need this division since he already had one U.S. Army division (the Philippine Division) and was mobilizing ten Philippine Army divisions. He asked instead for authority to reorganize the theoretically square Philippine Division into a triangular division, adding, "Equipment and supply of existing forces are the prime essential." "I am confident if these steps are taken with sufficient speed," he said, "that no further major reinforcement will be necessary for accomplishment of defense mission."[8]

The reinforcement of the Philippines now enjoyed the highest priority in the War Department. MacArthur's request for permission to reorganize the Philippine Division was approved immediately. He was promised additional aircraft as well as the funds needed for airfield construction and the antiaircraft guns and equipment to protect the fields once they were built. "I have directed," wrote General Marshall, "that United States Army Forces in the Philippines be placed in highest priority for equipment including authorized defense reserves for fifty thousand men."[9]
As a result, General MacArthur's requests for men and supplies during the next few months received almost instant approval by the War Department. "I wish to express my personal appreciation for the splendid support that you and the entire War Department have given me along every line since the formation of this command," he told the Chief of Staff in a personal letter. "With such backing the development of a completely adequate defense force will be rapid."[10]

Through no fault of the War Department or a lack of desire on the part of the Chief of Staff, General MacArthur's confidence in the rapid development of an adequate defense for the Philippines was not entirely justified. The task was a heavy one and limited by many factors beyond the control of the military. The industrial capacity of the United States was only just beginning to turn to the production of war material; the needs of a rapidly expanding citizen army had to be met; Great Britain and Russia were in critical need of supplies; and shipping space was extremely limited.

The reinforcements promised MacArthur on 16 August were dispatched with the greatest speed and by 12 September General Marshall was able to report considerable progress. The antiaircraft artillery regiment, the tank battalion of 54 tanks, and reserve supplies had already been shipped from San Francisco. During the month, 50 more tanks, and 50 self-propelled mounts for 75-mm. guns were to be sent.[11]

These reinforcements reached MacArthur before the end of September. The arrival of the 200th Coast Artillery Regiment (AA) gave him 12 additional 30-inch guns, 24 37-mm. guns, and a similar number of machine guns. Armored reinforcement consisted of the 192d and 194th Tank Battalions each with 54 tanks. And he could count on 25 more 75-mm. guns on self-propelled mounts (SPM) already en route and due to arrive in Manila on 15 October.[12]

The arrival of the two tank battalions with their 108 light tanks, M-3, were a welcome addition to the Philippine garrison. On 21 November a Provisional Tank Group consisting of the 192d and 194th Tank Battalions and the 17th Ordnance Company (Armored) was established, with Col. James R.N. Weaver in command.

As Military Advisor, MacArthur had proposed a plan to protect the inland seas by emplacing heavy coastal guns at the entrance to the key straits leading into these waters. The War Department had approved this plan and sent 24 155-mm. guns (without fire control equipment) to the Philippine Commonwealth to carry out this program, scheduled for completion in April 1942. MacArthur now proposed to extend this plan to include northern Luzon and asked the War Department for 4 12-inch and 4 8-inch railway guns, 22 more 155-mm. guns, and 30 searchlights. When emplaced, he argued, these guns would present an enemy advancing on Manila with "fixed position gunfire, the lightest of which will be of sufficient proportions to interfere with troop landings and the operations of lightly armored vessels."[13] The letter was received in Washington at the beginning of December, too late to result in action.[14]

General MacArthur's request for authority to reorganize the Philippine Division as a triangular division had been readily granted. To accomplish this reorganization, MacArthur said he needed an infantry regiment, a field artillery headquarters and headquarters battery, two field artillery battalions, a reconnaissance troop, and a military police platoon for the division.[15] The War Department agreed to provide these units and the staff began the detailed work necessary to select and ship them.

MacArthur's plans for the Philippine Division were explained in a letter he wrote to the Chief of Staff on 28 October. He wished, he said, to have the division at war strength and trained intensively for combat. "It would be impolitic," he thought, "to increase the number of Philippine Scouts above the authorized 12,000, for all recruits would be taken from Philippine Army reservists to serve at higher rates of pay than the Philippine Army can pay." The only way, then, to increase the strength of the division was to secure an additional infantry regiment and two battalions of artillery from the United States. With these units and the American 31st Infantry, he could form two American combat teams in the Philippine Division. The Scouts thus released could be used to bring the 91st and 92d Coast Artillery Regiments of the Harbor Defenses up to strength, retain several small units already in existence, and provide station complements for Forts McKinley and Stotsenburg. The Philippine Division would then be free to train for combat and would be available "for instant use." "The entire plan,": he told General Marshall, "will be placed in effect upon the arrival of the new regiment."[16]

MacArthur's plans included also the establishment of four major tactical commands, directly subordinate to USAFFE. On 2 October he requested authority, which was readily granted, to activate a headquarters and headquarters company for each "with average strength approximately those of Army Corps."[17] He also asked for army and corps troops to establish a balanced force, and for a field artillery brigade, a chemical company, three signal battalions, a medical supply depot, and a military police company, all at full strength and with complete organization and individual equipment. By the end of October he had requested almost 12,000 men: for the Philippine Division, 209 officers and 4,991 enlisted men; for army and corps troops, 340 officers and 6,392 enlisted men.

During the next month MacArthur continued to ask for additional units and individual specialists, and by the middle of November the War Department had approved for transfer to Manila 1,312 officers, 25 nurses, and 18,047 enlisted men belonging to units. Individual specialists totaled 200 officers and 2,968 enlisted men. The units selected for this overseas movement, including the 34th Infantry for the Philippine Division, were scheduled for shipment, forst for January 1942, but later, ironically, on 8 December 1941.[18]

These reinforcements and supplies were all intended for the regular U.S. Army establishment; requisitions for the Philippine Army were made and considered separately. His plan of induction had hardly been completed when MacArthur began to request from the War Department large amounts of supplies for his Philippine troops. During August alone he called for 84,500 Garand rifles (M1), 330 .30-caliber machine guns, 326 .50-caliber antiaircraft machine guns, 450 37-mm. guns, 217 81-mm. mortars, 288 75-mm. guns with high-speed adapters, and over 8,000 vehicles of all types for the ten Philippine Army divisions he planned to mobilize.[19] On 18 September he was told that because of lend-lease commitments and production schedules it would not be possible to send most of these items. Especially unwelcome was the news that Garand rifles were not available and that the Philippine Army divisions would have to continue to use the Enfield and '03s with which they were equipped.[20]

MacArthur nevertheless continued to request equipment for the Philippine Army, asking, on 10 September, for 125,000 steel helmets, as well as chemical, engineer, and signal equipment. A month later, the request for the helmets was approved. They would be shipped immediately and the other equipment would be shipped at a later date.[21]

Since the Philippine Army was not limited in size by law as was the U.S. Army, MacArthur was in the unique position of being able to raise as many troops as the War Department could equip. On 20 September he asked for "complete organizational equipment" for a number of army and corps units to be formed principally of Philippine Army personnel. Included were 2 155-mm. and 3 105-mm. howitzer regiments, a motorized battalion of 155-mm. guns, 3 antitank gun battalions, and service, signal, and medical units.[22] These requests were approved and a shipping schedule established.

Most disturbing was the shortage of light artillery and machine guns in the Philippine Army divisions. By the end of September the Philippine Army had only 48 75-m. guns. At least 240 were required to equip the artillery regiments of the ten reserve divisions and another 36 for filed artillery training centers. Also needed were 37-mm. guns for the antitank battalions and .40-caliber machine guns. Realizing that the supply of these guns was limited, MacArthur expressed a willingness to accept as substitutes obsolete models or smaller weapons. "Strongly recommend," he appealed to the Chief of Staff, "improvisation to the extent of providing substitute arrangement in spite of lowered efficiency for any types available in the United States."[23] By mid-November, the War Department had taken action to ship 40 105-mm. howitzers to the Philippines. These weapons were to be given to U.S. Army units and would release to Philippine Army units a like number of 75s. In addition, 10 75-mm. pack howitzers were to be taken from the vital Canal Zone and 48 British 75-mm. guns and 123 .30-caliber machine guns from the equally important Hawaiian garrison for the Philippine Islands, an indication of the importance which the defense of the archipelago had acquired in the eyes of the War Department. From the United States itself would come 130 75-mm. guns, 35 37-mm. guns (M1916) and 14 .30-caliber machine guns.[24]

No action was taken until October to supply the thousands of vehicles MacArthur had requested. During that month a large number of jeeps, ambulances, trucks, and sedans became available and on the 15th the War Department released these vehicles for the Philippine Army, "subject to the availability of shipping."[25] A request for clothing for the Philippine Army was also approved, as was the equipment for ten 250-bed station hospitals and 180 sets of regimental infirmary equipment.[26] An early requisition for 500,000 C rations and enough 55-gallon drums to hold 1,000,000 gallons of gasoline was filled during the summer. Strangely enough, the drums arrived filled although the gasoline had not been requested. This unexpected windfall proved extremely fortunate. A large portion of the gasoline was stored on Bataan and was most welcome during the campaign.[27]

The approval of requisitions and orders for shipment did not result in any immediate increase in the supplies of the Philippine Army. Time was required to order the stocks from depots and factories, pack and ship them to the port of embarkation, find the vessels to transport them, and finally get them to the Islands. In September, the Navy began sending cruiser escorts with Army transports and merchant ships on their voyages between Hawaii and Manila. This procedure frequently meant that the transports had to stop at Honolulu, sometimes reload, and then sail west at a speed equal to that of the slowest vessel in the convoy.

The shipment of supplies was dependent upon the number of cargo vessels available to the Army. This number was never large and the Navy, for a time, threatened even this limited supply. In September the Navy announced its intention to convert three transports to escort carriers. General Marshall protested this decision vigorously, pointing out to the Chief of Naval Operations that it would delay the delivery of much-needed reinforcements to MacArthur by over two months.[28] Despite the favorable outcome of this protest, a large backlog of troops and approximately 1,100,000 tons of equipment destined for the Philippines had piled up in U.S. ports or depots by November. A group of shipping experts, including representatives from the War Department General Staff, Office of the Quartermaster General, the Navy, and Maritime Commission, met on 10 November to discuss ways of breaking the shipping block. As a result of this meeting a shipping schedule was established which recognized the priority of the Philippines over Hawaiian defenses and advanced the troop movements scheduled for mid-January to 17 and 20 December. Altogether, nine vessels were assigned to the Manila route, to sail in November and December. They would bring to MacArthur one light and one heavy bombardment group, a pursuit group, one reconnaissance squadron, a regiment of infantry, a brigade of field artillery, two battalions of light artillery, together with ground and air service units.[29] Had these vessels, the last of which was to leave the United States on 20 December, reached the Philippines the Japanese would have faced a far stronger force when they landed on Luzon.



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(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 81
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/20/2011 8:12:19 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Well, mammy always said if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. But too many folks have too many different ideas about what's right. So maybe we'll just give this one a pass.



Wasn't trying to derail your project, just pointing out a few problems that are often overlooked. Like the utter lack of junior and mid-grade officers available to the forming Philippino units. Not to mention NCO's and Drill Instructors who spoke Tagalog. Finding someone to give the recruits 13 weeks of basic and another 13-17 weeks of advanced training was a major problem. The men were willing enough..., but the infrastructure was going to have to be built from scratch.

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Post #: 82
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/21/2011 2:28:09 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


It's a lot more than just Pensacola. Everything stacked up at SFO comes in as well. So Mac gets the 34th and 161st IRs, all the arty units, the engineers, the planes, the base and material Bns, as well as 380 odd ATGs, 500 odd MGs, real-live Brandt 81s, at least 50 105mm, more 3in AAA, some CD tubes, two dancing bears ... there was 1,100,000 tons of stuff at SFO FoB Manila in November 41, quite a bit of it actually scheduled for departure mid December. And Mac gets his Q-boats, too.

What I don't want to get into is redefining the underlying base structure of the PI and the entire operational scheme. Need to put a stake in the ground somewhere, so the campaign is fundamentally the same; just a heck of a lot more of it.

The date doesn't matter that much, it's a nice convenience for editing scheduled arrivals and sinkings, etc.. Can call it whatever. Assumption is PA troops have gone through the 13 week basic training cycle and units have had the 5 week Bn/Rgt course. Maybe they started a few weeks earlier, who can tell?


OK got it. You are assuming everything in SF gets there by Jan 42 that would make things interesting. Do they still get their Inner Seas Defence CDs? The guns are already on the Islands, locations sighted, surveyed and concrete begining to be poured when war started. Not scheduled to be completed until April though.

< Message edited by TIMJOT -- 5/21/2011 2:42:52 AM >

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Post #: 83
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/21/2011 2:41:03 AM   
TIMJOT

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


Wasn't trying to derail your project, just pointing out a few problems that are often overlooked. Like the utter lack of junior and mid-grade officers available to the forming Philippino units. Not to mention NCO's and Drill Instructors who spoke Tagalog. Finding someone to give the recruits 13 weeks of basic and another 13-17 weeks of advanced training was a major problem. The men were willing enough..., but the infrastructure was going to have to be built from scratch.



I dont think JWE is saying they are going to be fully trained Divisions, but with 5 additional months training and with all the equipment being sent they would be better than they were on Dec 8th. Many casual fillers were being sent to act as trainers and with the addition of the 34th and 161st Regts many more scouts would be freed up for this role as well.

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Post #: 84
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/21/2011 1:12:15 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT
OK got it. You are assuming everything in SF gets there by Jan 42 that would make things interesting. Do they still get their Inner Seas Defence CDs? The guns are already on the Islands, locations sighted, surveyed and concrete begining to be poured when war started. Not scheduled to be completed until April though.

Sure. It doesn't take all that much to emplace of pair of 155s on Panamas. If they had the battery scopes and the RFs et up they could always run with open dumps. Hard to know what to do with the 8in CD. Maybe a couple of batteries fully completed, and others with the 8in there, but "damaged" (representing additional construction needed)? All get operational eventually. Crewed by 1st and 2nd CA (PA). Elements of 2xx Constr Eng (PA) hanging out and constructing.

Basically Uncle Don's wish list from post #13 (fewer militia though). They won't be fully trained, but will be equipped. Start date is fungible in game terms. We presume April and just call it January (or whatever). Maybe they started 2 months earlier? Definitely giving a pass on Sept 42, though.

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Post #: 85
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/21/2011 10:20:26 PM   
el cid again

 

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OK - I spelled Balenta pass wrong - I said Balinta Pass.

If we put Baguio City where I said - 81,74 - it is in the same hex as the big copper mine as well as the gold mines.
So all the resources go there - none into Bontox hex - and 81,73 needs no town.

Baguio probably should have an "invisible" RR connection to San Fernando - representing the ore carrying
system - to get the resources out. There is a proper road - the Naguilian Road - between the two. But there
is also a different road and an ore carrying conveyance system to the copper mine. If Clark is 25 vp, Baguio
should be in the 12-15 range.

San Fernando is the port of the mines - and it is a proper port too. As in subs cannot get in. A nice port, it
was developed for ore carriers. It should be given more victory points. I think the port is a 3. I gave it 5 vp.

I see no reason for other locations to have equal victory point values for both sides - but not Clark AFB.

I think most places do not rate high airfield development codes - in particular that most places that had tiny or no
fields have a potential build of 7 - but Clark only rates a 5 - never mind it remains to this day the big guy on Luzon.
Even ruined by a volcanic eruption, it was more feasible to bring it back than to develop some other field. I reset
most build levels to 4 - just smaller than Clark - except for cause - 3 or 2.

Clark - which I call Subic/Clark - ought to have a 3 port rating. Subic Bay Naval Air Station is a real naval base -
I was advance home ported there - and not some level 1 minimal creature as described.

Aparri is probably worth more than 2 victory points - 3 or 4 perhaps.

Cebu is missing its repair (or merchant) shipyard.
Cebu is worth way more than 2 victory points too.

More places should generate 1 manpower. Probably there is 2 light industry in Baguio, 1 at San Fernando.

But I am impressed - the map is much better than WITP was - and almost everything is almost right - even to a nit picker.

(in reply to berto)
Post #: 86
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/21/2011 11:45:11 PM   
JWE

 

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Have already given the scope of the scenario. Further discussions of this sort really belong somewhere else. Thank you.

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Post #: 87
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/22/2011 1:14:48 AM   
berto


Posts: 20708
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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If we put Baguio City where I said - 81,74

Baguio is essential, and that's the best place for it.

quote:

Cebu is worth way more than 2 victory points too.

Correct. Cebu is the leading city of the central Visayas region. Currently Cebu is the country's third largest city (with Metro Manila as number one, and Davao as number two). Until recently, more Filipinos spoke Cebuano than Tagalog.

quote:

But I am impressed - the map is much better than WITP was - and almost everything is almost right - even to a nit picker.

I agree. Almost everything is done right. Except for no Baguio.

Details aside, the WITP:AE game map is one of the most gorgeous game maps I've ever seen. Could hardly look better.

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Post #: 88
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/22/2011 7:53:10 PM   
JWE

 

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Hola, Uncle Don.

Friend of mine in Pennsylvania thinks he's got a handle on what 3in naval guns were poking about for 61st and 81st IDs (PA). Have to say, I find his logic compelling. Asked him to post his findings, but he has serious problems with the recent constituents of this forum. Maybe he will, maybe not. You will get his report in any case.

He is quite nauseated by the Matrix Forums. I've been asked before, but now more adamantly, to add WiTP-AE Babes discussions and developments to a moderated mil.hist forum, so that interested professionals won't have to put up with ... you know. It is public, but posts will be reviewed before they show. We don't have the time or inclination to do both that and Matrix, so it's very likely we'll move to mil.hist.


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Post #: 89
RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/22/2011 9:02:39 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Hola, Uncle Don.

Friend of mine in Pennsylvania thinks he's got a handle on what 3in naval guns were poking about for 61st and 81st IDs (PA). Have to say, I find his logic compelling. Asked him to post his findings, but he has serious problems with the recent constituents of this forum. Maybe he will, maybe not. You will get his report in any case.

He is quite nauseated by the Matrix Forums. I've been asked before, but now more adamantly, to add WiTP-AE Babes discussions and developments to a moderated mil.hist forum, so that interested professionals won't have to put up with ... you know. It is public, but posts will be reviewed before they show. We don't have the time or inclination to do both that and Matrix, so it's very likely we'll move to mil.hist.



Sorry to hear the "Babes" team may be moving out of the AE forums. I have probably crossed the line a few times against what should have been my better judgement and commented on things I really had no business or grasp to comment on. However, I have tried to clean up my act a bit lately. I would hope that there is room on these boards for all those interested in this great game regardless of what walk of life they come from, professional or amateur. I would like to extend a "fig leaf" toward your friend in hopes that he will visit the forums. Sounds like the forums might benefit from his expertise.

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Post #: 90
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