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Why am I losing so bad every game against AI?

 
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Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 12:52:50 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline 		I've been playing two player, random, small, stone age, and every game the AI develops an overwhelming number of troops, particularly armored cars. I try to match it, and I inflict way more casualties than I take, but I'm just swamped everytime. When I look at the end game states, his production just dwarfs mine, even though I'm using engineers to upgrade my stuff. I don't really know what's going on, is the AI cheating? I bought this thinking it would be a wargame, but it feels more like an economic game, its about as fun as civilization, I'm just constantly having to focus on production. Not fun at all, I think i wasted my money.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 5/20/2011 12:53:37 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 1:34:17 AM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline 		Yes the AI cheats.  Instead of improving it Vic implemented a number of cheats.  There's a list around.  That was the main reason I decided not to upgrade.

(in reply to Adam Rinkleff)
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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 1:45:40 AM   
all5n


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/19/2007
From: Republic of Texas
Status: offline 		AT gun until you can get Light Tank II.

/game

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 1:46:38 AM   
Tac2i


Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
Status: offline 		No, the AI does not 'cheat.' Like almost every single computer wargame on the market, the AI is given some kind of advantages since it doesn't have the power of a human brain. First of all, if you are still playing the version that shipped, v2.00, you need to update you game. Secondly, you need to learn the basics of playing this game. There is a learning curve but it isn't really that difficult. Also, since version 2.03 there is an A- AI where most of its advantages have been taken away.

< Message edited by Webizen -- 5/20/2011 3:14:28 AM >

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 3:36:01 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Secondly, you need to learn the basics of playing this game.


Thanks for the help? Durr...

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 3:37:51 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

AT gun until you can get Light Tank II.


So does that mean I can't compete in the armored car war against the AI? I basically have to make a bunch of defensive units and try to survive long enough to get tanks? To be honest, that sounds a lot like exploiting the AI. I wish I could play a real person I guess.

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 3:46:52 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

No, the AI does not 'cheat.'

Apparently it does. New players need to know that, or they will keep trying to understand why the AI keeps having a superior economy. Its pretty damn frustrating to think you are doing something wrong, only to discover that your opponent is cheating. Now that I know its cheating, I guess I can try to exploit it somehow, but Id rather have a straight-up fight without the cheating.

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 3:53:57 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline 		What would be helpful would be to know some basic statistics, like approximately how many infantry I need to attack successfully against 10 infantry. Or how many AT guns I need to defend successfully against 10 armored cars. If I knew how to use the editor I'd just test it there, but I can't figure that thing out - is there a tutorial anywhere?

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 4:24:23 AM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		I too got was getting my a$$ handed to me, in the first couple games i played, random, 3 ai, small map. I was always starting between the Ai's so i'd get overwhelmed quickly and it was mostly battle to survive.. not much fun.. only my stubborness kept me playing long after i should of quit. move up to medium maps, and mix in A- and A computer opponents, and don't start between all the AI's . i'm having a blast now, this game i even went about 10 turns and no Ai declared on me, i declared war on the weaker Ai, that had been at war with another Ai since turn 3. once i was deeply involved with that AI , the other one back doored me on weakly held part of my line and pushed me back.. way back...but the tide has turned and i'm about to wipe out the weaker AI and i'm deep in country of the one that back doored me, haven't had contact with the other Ai on the other side of the map yet.This is good stuff, hang in there. I gotta go, my spearhead is cut off from supply and i gotta airdrop some supplies to them, hope i cleared out all the enemy fighters
budd

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I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 4:48:18 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline 		A- AIs? How? All I see are AI, AI+, and AI++.


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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 5:55:51 AM   
Iron Knight


Posts: 213
Joined: 12/24/2007
Status: offline 		Update your game to the beta patch found here. You'll have to register your copy of ATG of you haven't yet.

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 2:38:16 PM   
papajack

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/11/2010
Status: offline 		Nah ----the AI does not cheat , it just that we cannot accept that the AL can be so good  that after few defeats , we have to blame on cheating AI

Learn to  use proper  units . terrain to attack , defend. MG in forest / cities will be tough to crack / counter tank with AT and bazooka
add mortar to your infantry to give them extra firepower ....

Secure key cities to deny your opponent resources , Don't just blindly produce units that eat up your supplies ....

Remember readiness is also very important.....plan your HQ ahead 

Don't neglect research / upgrades   

You just cannot mass a large army and just smash your way through ...







< Message edited by papajack -- 5/20/2011 2:44:05 PM >

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 2:57:58 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		The AI gets a bunch of advantages ()units and production) in the early game, and it may be that if the map is too small, you don't have time to get up to speed before you are overwhelmed.Normally you can win by exploiting the AI weaknesses.

The AI will generally use small units with lots of armored cars, and does not use combined arms effectively. If you see a lot of armored cars get bazooka infantry. ALWAYS start an attack on strong units by an artillery barrage followed by an air attack. This is usually enough to make the stack a pushover. NEVER attack at odds below 5:1 (as indicated by the numbers on the counters), because the true odds are actually lower, these numbers are much reduced by drops in readiness.

Use normal infantry and machinegun infantry for defence, and SMG in rough terrain where normal infantgry is almost useless on the attack.Put a few mortars in as many attacking infantry units as you can (no more than 4 mortars).

The AI is very good at flowing units around your lines, so on the defence you have to either find a bottleneck that you can defend or have enough units to cover the whole front to avoid being flanked.

Use horses to carry units around with few exceptions. In the early game you will never have enough units to field a mechanized army, but you DO want a few tanks and especially aircraft that suck up fuel.

Henri



< Message edited by henri51 -- 5/20/2011 3:00:15 PM >

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 6:43:53 PM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

If you see a lot of armored cars get bazooka infantry.

Whats a decent ratio of bazooks per armored car? Although,to be honest, I'd rather have armored cars but I guess I can't do that if the AI is getting free ones which it clearly is.




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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 8:22:44 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff


quote:

If you see a lot of armored cars get bazooka infantry.

Whats a decent ratio of bazooks per armored car? Although,to be honest, I'd rather have armored cars but I guess I can't do that if the AI is getting free ones which it clearly is.







Inf in cover (woods, cities, mountains) with 5 bazookas and one or two AT guns wreak havoc on enemy armour. You can create a specific unit for this, give it some horses and move it where you want, or put them in the Inf unit. I do both in my games.

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 8:40:36 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		My standard Infantry Division is 45 Rifle, 5 mg, 5 mortars, 5 bazooka and then as I get them I add 2 Inf guns, an Anti tank gun and a Flak. All horse drawn.

Part of the problem is that the AI likes to make divisions with 15 plus Armored cars. I have yet to see Lt Tanks or medium Tanks just tons of Armored cars.

(in reply to Adam Rinkleff)
Post #: 16
RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 9:45:01 PM   
Tac2i


Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
Status: offline 		I've seen the AI use light and medium tanks (and cavalry since v2.03) and sometimes they are upgraded to level 2.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

My standard Infantry Division is 45 Rifle, 5 mg, 5 mortars, 5 bazooka and then as I get them I add 2 Inf guns, an Anti tank gun and a Flak. All horse drawn.

Part of the problem is that the AI likes to make divisions with 15 plus Armored cars. I have yet to see Lt Tanks or medium Tanks just tons of Armored cars.




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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 10:22:07 PM   
phatkarp


Posts: 131
Joined: 4/14/2011
Status: offline 		The AI will outproduce you, so you need to outsmart the AI.  Generally speaking, you should play strong defense at first.  Look for opportunties to encircle and disrupt the supply lines of your enemy, as that is how you really leverage a small force against a much larger one.  

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 10:46:05 PM   
all5n


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/19/2007
From: Republic of Texas
Status: offline 		Its not exploiting the AI. Its a legitimate tactic to counter the AIs tactics.

AT guns eat armored cars for lunch on defense, and light tanks do the same on offense. Logic tells us that if you are facing a lot of armored cars, this is a valid tactic.

But i agree that playing against people is much more fun. Why dont you get in one of our PBEM games?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff


quote:

AT gun until you can get Light Tank II.


So does that mean I can't compete in the armored car war against the AI? I basically have to make a bunch of defensive units and try to survive long enough to get tanks? To be honest, that sounds a lot like exploiting the AI. I wish I could play a real person I guess.



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Post #: 19
RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/20/2011 11:06:27 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		It is also worth noting that although artillery is ineffective against armored cars, aircraft are devastating against armored cars. So if you are seeing a lot of armored cars, hit them with aircraft.If they are mixed with infantry, hit them first with artillery to reduce the infantry, then aircraft, then finish them off with a land attack.

Henri

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/21/2011 2:10:25 AM   
SSFSX17

 

Posts: 182
Joined: 10/14/2001
From: California
Status: offline 		In my experience against the AI, it's best to plan out defensive lines in which you will build fortifications, then plan out a forward attack force whose main purpose is to drive hard at critical production centers.

Fuel will be very tight, so I always reserve airpower for use against HQs, and armored offensives for when important locations are within reach.

Also, the AI's production planning is always reactive rather than pro-active, so having good combined arms that are the opposite of what the AI expects goes a long way. If you build Light Tanks, it will take a while for the AI to get Medium Tanks to the front, and so on.

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/21/2011 2:17:01 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline 		I finally won my first game!  I got the patch, put it on AI-, and got some wierd small/mirror map where our capitals were just three or four hexes apart. I produced 10 artillery, some armoured cars and a handful of light tanks, and a bunch of SMG infantry. Then I declared war, and two turns later overran his capital! : D The entire game lasted about 5 minutes. 

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/21/2011 6:32:34 AM   
82ndtrooper


Posts: 1083
Joined: 12/19/2008
From: tennessee
Status: offline 		\o/ adam !!

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/21/2011 1:16:17 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

I finally won my first game!  I got the patch, put it on AI-, and got some wierd small/mirror map where our capitals were just three or four hexes apart. I produced 10 artillery, some armoured cars and a handful of light tanks, and a bunch of SMG infantry. Then I declared war, and two turns later overran his capital! : D The entire game lasted about 5 minutes. 



Adam-AI; 1-0!


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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/21/2011 1:29:16 PM   
melmoth2

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline 		I managed to win my first game - I think. Small map vs 1 AI. Building tanks and upgrading them as quickly as possible (eventually to Medium Tank III) did it as I was able to sweep around the enemy's flanks and cut off its supply. For some reason it built loads and loads of fighter planes which didn't seem to do it much good in the end. Eventually I destroyed all its units and occupied all its cities. However the game didn't end and I didn't get any Victory notification so now my units are sitting on a map I control 100% twiddling their virtual thumbs. Not sure what's supposed to happen next, unless this is a bug. :)

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/21/2011 1:35:07 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: melmoth2

I managed to win my first game - I think. Small map vs 1 AI. Building tanks and upgrading them as quickly as possible (eventually to Medium Tank III) did it as I was able to sweep around the enemy's flanks and cut off its supply. For some reason it built loads and loads of fighter planes which didn't seem to do it much good in the end. Eventually I destroyed all its units and occupied all its cities. However the game didn't end and I didn't get any Victory notification so now my units are sitting on a map I control 100% twiddling their virtual thumbs. Not sure what's supposed to happen next, unless this is a bug. :)


In a random scenario, when you start it tells you how many victory points you need to win. That info is probably available on one of the screens. I think points correspond to cities.

Henri

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RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/21/2011 4:11:53 PM   
melmoth2

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:


In a random scenario, when you start it tells you how many victory points you need to win. That info is probably available on one of the screens. I think points correspond to cities.

Henri


That's what I assumed - I own every city on the map now. Perhaps I need to cast the ring into the volcano or something :)

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Post #: 27
RE: Why am I losing so bad every game against AI? - 5/21/2011 5:12:26 PM   
Tufkal2

 

Posts: 834
Joined: 12/31/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		How many victory points do you have and many do you need according to the scenario description?
Casting the ring into the vocano only works if your regime is named "The Fellowship"...


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