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Games similar to SPWAW - 12/28/2000 2:48:00 AM   
lnp4668

 

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Arlington, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I at most was a casual war gamer until got hook by SPWAW. Could anyone suggest a tactical level game similar to SPWAW for the PC on the market right now?

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Post #: 1
- 12/28/2000 2:59:00 AM   
Panzer Capta


Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2000
From: Bedford, NH, USA
Status: offline 		There are numerous similar: Talonsoft Campaign Series (East Front, West Front, Rising Sun) Tigers on the Prowl II (primitive graphics but a game of outstanding depth). Panthers in the Shadows (same as above) Dragons in the Mist (same as above) Sudden Strike (i just received this, so i cant compare).

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- 12/28/2000 3:01:00 AM   
hhsohn

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/21/2000
From: Walnut, California, USA
Status: offline 		If you want something similar, then I think only choice is East Front/West Front games by Talonsoft. But there are couple of good WWII tactical games in different play style. Close Combat series is awesome in small infantry unit tactical battles, and it plays in real time. I hear Combat Missions is another excellent game, and it uses "we-go" type of turns. Anyone else know if other good games?

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- 12/28/2000 3:13:00 AM   
Charles22

 

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Im sorry to hear Panzer Captain got that "Sudden Strike" rubbish. It is total rubbish if you want something resembling realism. It works off the awful 'hit points' system and you never get to choose the units either.

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Post #: 4
- 12/28/2000 3:24:00 AM   
Panzer Capta


Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2000
From: Bedford, NH, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Charles22: Im sorry to hear Panzer Captain got that "Sudden Strike" rubbish. It is total rubbish if you want something resembling realism. It works off the awful 'hit points' system and you never get to choose the units either.
I havent even taken it out of the box yet, so i cannot comment. With SPWaW, it may never get out of the box.

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- 12/28/2000 3:36:00 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		the graphics in suddenstrike are great but the game is another command & Conquer. talonsoft's Campaign series approaches SPWAW the closest.

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Post #: 6
- 12/28/2000 3:55:00 AM   
lnp4668

 

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Arlington, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info. I just ordered Europe in Flames (compilation of West Front and East Front 2) and Rising Sun Gold. Already have the Close Combat Trilogy. Played mostly the Russian Front. Guess I am a tanker at heart |-) Tried the demos of Combat Mission, it is great, but wasn't sure about the campaign system. Have the hardest time find the older games on the list

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- 12/28/2000 5:12:00 AM   
Rhone

 

Posts: 114
Joined: 8/17/2000
Status: offline 		The East/West Front series is good, but I could never get used to the level (multiple tanks represented by a single icon) I want the feeling of a birdseye view of the battlefield more so than the strategy map. Close Combat is the best RTS game by far. If you like the tanks of CCIII, you will like CCIV as well (The Bulge)....and when you get sick of tanks (you can with CC) CCV goes back to the Normandy Hedgerows for some pretty good infantry battles with the token tank for support...

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- 12/28/2000 5:29:00 AM   
Securitas

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 11/8/2000
Status: offline 		There is one other that is similar. Incredibly similar in fact because it is based on the Steel Panthers series as well: SPWW2. Like SPWAW, it is an excellent game. ------------------ Securitas _________________________ 88 is a really nice number

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- 12/28/2000 5:55:00 AM   
Dagobert

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 9/27/2000
Status: offline 		The nice thing about the Campaign series is the huge amount of scenarios especially if you get EIF. The scripted campaigns can be quite good too.

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Post #: 10
- 12/28/2000 7:01:00 AM   
AbnAirCav


Posts: 10
Joined: 12/5/2000
From: Southern U.S.A.
Status: offline 		  There's a table comparing some wargame scales at http://www.dragon-isle.net/TheBunker/wargames.html.   I agree with the previous posters, my favorites are Combat Mission and the Campaign Series (WF, EF II, RS). I, personally, don't care for the real time games.

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Post #: 11
- 12/28/2000 7:19:00 AM   
Dave_R

 

Posts: 84
Joined: 9/22/2000
From: England
Status: offline 		Hey Guys! Let's not forget Steel Panthers 2 and 3. THey are the fore runners of SPW@W By SSI. SP 2 Covers the post WW2 Period 1950 to 2000. SP3 covers both WW2 and beyond upto 2000, but covers the higher echlone stuff, Regimental level rather then company level of SP2 and SPW@W. Both games are more then good, and what level you'd prefare is upto personal taste, but they lack the fine detail that SPW@W has, Matrix is working on a modern version of SPW@W, but that's still some time off, months rather then weeks. But if you fancy some fighting in Korea, Nam, The Middle East, The Gulf and so on these are a must until SPM hits the line!

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Post #: 12
- 12/28/2000 11:26:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Combat Mission has proven to be a very good tac level infantry heavy game (though tank only battles work well too). It is different with 21st century graphics (3D) and a very good AI. The playing system, however, is radically different from SP series and takes a little time to grasp and appreciate. It is a definite winner! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 13
- 12/28/2000 11:39:00 AM   
Pack Rat

 

Posts: 594
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: north central Pennsylvania USA
Status: offline 		Age of Rifles, in my opion had a good "feel" to it. Probably impossable or at least very hard to buy. It can be downloaded at The Under Dogs site which is in the Matrix favorite links. I haven't figure out how to get it going because of a .rar file. I can unzip it with the Winrar program but does it get it's own folder or what? ------------------ Your mine is a terrible thing to lose. Pack Rat

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Post #: 14
- 12/28/2000 12:27:00 PM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Has anyone tried "Steel Beasts"? Haven't seen it mentioned. Anyone know if it is worth laying out the money to acquire? Bing

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Post #: 15
- 12/28/2000 5:44:00 PM   
Arralen


Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline 		"Steel Beasts"? It's a totally different matter - ultra-realistic tank simulation of modern tanks (Leo, M-1) screenshots & order page: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/esim/ review & more screenshots: http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/oct00/sbeast.html Hope this helps .. Arralen

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- 12/28/2000 5:54:00 PM   
Michael Wermelin

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/3/2000
From: Karlstad, Sweden
Status: offline 		Campaign series are just great. They don't show the same level of realism as SPWAW does but the tactics are just great. While SPWAW shows single soldiers and tanks Campaign series shows platoons. The terrain features and the graphics are better than SPWAW but unfortunately lacks ability to make good random battles. Sudden Strike. What a pice of crap. Graphic outstanding....but what is that worth when the rest of the game is so unrealistic you just wanna puke.

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Post #: 17
- 12/29/2000 1:16:00 AM   
lnp4668

 

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Arlington, TX, USA
Status: offline 		What I love most about SPWAW was the ability to bring your core forces from green recruit to battle hardened veteran through the campaign. I know that Combat Mission don't have this in its campaign. Do anyone who played the Campaign series know if it have this capability?

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Post #: 18
- 12/29/2000 3:28:00 AM   
Charles22

 

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Panzer Captain: Let this be a lesson to you (Sudden Strike). Don't ever buy a wargame if it's in real time, unless you've first played the demo. I've got a pretty decent stash of money I could fling at games if I wanted, but I refuse to buy a lot of things for two critical reasons (and other factors as well): 1. I don't have time to play 'everything' and unless I get in-depth into something, I don't really get to enjoy it. 2. I like to send a message by not buying junk. I'm sure the game might sell quite well, but it's an insult to call it a wargame. Fun to look at, but that's about it. For those who love AOE, Panzer Strike, though it may be exceedingly unrealistic as AOE is, doesn't even come close to capturing some of the main facets of the RTS genre. It stinks as RTS, it stinks as a wargame. All it's about good for is something of a war movie video. I hope you find more to it than I did, but it certainly doesn't contain practically any of the advantages of either the wargaming or RTS genres. I never take computer purchases back, but I can't think of any game I might be marginally interested in, where I would've heard such a loud call to "take it back".

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Post #: 19
- 12/29/2000 5:18:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		The judgements are too harsh on real-time games. I am an avid wargame player and real time strategy player (as well as first person shooter gamer). The basic premise of the game is vastly different from our beloved wargames. If you take C&C and AOE type games into some consideration you will realize that realism is not an issue, it is about resource management. A game need not be realistic to be fufilling or good. The real time aspect of the game challenges players to develop effective and efficient habits. In these games tactics (as we understand the word) play a very small role, but strategy is still the overriding factor in determining victory. There is a rush of exhileration that is absent from turn based games in a real time environment when you succeed. Certainly, it is far more difficult to do when under the pressure of time, but that is part of the fun. A great deal of good judgement is necessary to know how and where to use your attention. It's a good solid challenge whos value shouldn't be dismissed. I have also recently purchased Sudden Strike, and find it to be an excellent game. It's not realistic, but it's also not totally unrealistic either. It tries as best it can to model a variety of effects. It models front/flank/rear damage and armor, there is minelaying and obstruction creation, paratroops, capturing guns, and a crap-load of other cool stuff (and it definitely looks good). If one puts a premium on realism then war cannot be properly portrayed without confusion. These turn based games that are so excellently crafted have very little of that. If I were from a different camp of thought I could use many similar examples to support an argument that says the turn based wargames on the market today are 'totally unrealistic'. Don't let preconception get in the way of a good time. Tomo

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Post #: 20
- 12/29/2000 9:16:00 PM   
Charles22

 

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Tombstone: IMO, Sudden Strike stinks as an RTS, precisely because there's so much lacking; AOE beats it in a landslide. It don't even have one of the very things key to RTS, which you mentioned: resource management. After a little of the glitz has worn off, an awful lot of people will see how shallow that game is compared to AOE and other RTS games (you can't even pick you own units either!). There's not even a random scenario/campaign generator, for crying out loud. It stinks to the heavens. Maybe someone will get a brain later and develope random scenario/campaigns for it, or put in some resource management.

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Post #: 21
- 12/29/2000 10:09:00 PM   
jerrek

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 7/7/2000
From: australia
Status: offline 		i actually prefer set forces in most scenarios. It allows for better balanced (and historical) scenario creation and is a strength of games like campaign series. For instance in a desert campaign the addition of one or 2 88's to a german force that in realitity may have had none (not all formations had them surely) could make a lot of diff against happless matilda 2's and crusaders and turn an interesting scenario into a turkey shoot. It also stops the addition of things like elephants which if used in correct manner (well behind line on a hill for instance) could be an invunourable killing machine (and not historically available to any but a few "lucky units").

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Post #: 22
- 12/29/2000 11:00:00 PM   
Panzer Capta


Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2000
From: Bedford, NH, USA
Status: offline 		As i mentioned earlier, i havent played Sudden Strike as of yet (perhaps this weekend) so i cant give an opinion. However, in my opinion, the limitation of resources in any scenerio and in any game, would seem to present quite a challenge to the player. For one, it would require tactical decisions not only to achieve objectives, but also to conserve resources (i.e., infantry and equipment)to meet those ojbectives....just an opinion. In response to Charles22..Sudden Strike certainly doesnt have the flexible playability as SPWAW and Campaign Series, and that alone is a huge drawback. From a business perspective, I dont quite understand how any designer of computer wargames could produce a product without the versatility of designing scenerios and campaings. Let us be thankful for SPWAW.

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Post #: 23
- 12/29/2000 11:07:00 PM   
max

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: placerville,ca us
Status: offline 		Well at the risk of getting flamed i have played the sudden strike demo and i like it .... i dont compare it to SPWAW at all as its a total different game real time for one ... and from what ive seen in the demo its pretty fun to play ... i have all the close combat games and didnt like them much but this game even though has the feel of close combat it really seams to be alot better in my mind ... i havent bought a pc game in a long time now ... i have over 110 pc games to date and just recently bought the ps2 and have been playing lots of Madden football but i think ill buy sudden strike anyways .... my 2 cents %

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Post #: 24
- 12/30/2000 1:36:00 AM   
Charles22

 

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		jeerek: You're approaching this from the wargaming angle, not the RTS one, though of course as I said it's a failure at both. Resource management, key to RTS is missing, as I said, but also another key is the ability to make your own forces as you go. From the wargaming perspective, yes set forces have there place. In wargaming, or perhaps I should say "turn-based/phase-based" play either set forces or buildable forces can be quite at home. OTOH "real-time" is pretty exclusively the turf of buildable forces, and there's only one game I've played with set forces that I enjoyed that might normally fit into the general real-time market, Fantasy General and that was turn-based. Panzer Captain: If you consider where you want to move a tank, or useage of the hospital truck as "resource-management" then the RTS genre would have a problem with that description, for RTS resource-management involves production of things and so forth, a bit more involving, and yes, they very often aren't unlimited. I hate to see someone waste their money on rubbish, so I hope you enjoy it, but as it stands it's sure rubbish to me. Actually that upcoming "Empire Earth" or whatever it's called, may be a lot better WWII RTS modeling (at least for the period where the player is in that era).

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Post #: 25
- 12/30/2000 2:35:00 AM   
Panzer Capta


Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2000
From: Bedford, NH, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Charles22: Panzer Captain: If you consider where you want to move a tank, or useage of the hospital truck as "resource-management" then the RTS genre would have a problem with that description, for RTS resource-management involves production of things and so forth, a bit more involving, and yes, they very often aren't unlimited. I hate to see someone waste their money on rubbish, so I hope you enjoy it, but as it stands it's sure rubbish to me. Actually that upcoming "Empire Earth" or whatever it's called, may be a lot better WWII RTS modeling (at least for the period where the player is in that era).[/B]
Charles22: I hope i enjoy Sudden Strike as well. I am somewhat of a collector of wargames, particularly WWII. So, in that sense, i would likely have purchased it (Sudden Strike) in any event. Based upon the RTS games that i have played (Close Combat Series), i do much prefer the turn-based tactical genre (SPWAW, Campaing Series, Tigers on the Prowl, Panthers in the Shadows, Dragons in the Mist). Although i find the Close Combat games very good, i have never really enjoyed the mouse workout (click fest). I know i can employ the pause button, but it seems like cheating.

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Post #: 26
- 12/30/2000 3:00:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		There are some RTS games that are starting to come out nowadays that do not include a resource management element in their games. These games are attmpting to make something that would better be called a real time tactical game. I agree that it doesn't have the depth of AOE. What it does have is a very nice balance between offensive action and defensive action, and it makes a game out of more than just what you do with your units. Something about these real time games that is really cool is that there is more going on than a single mind can handle. That requires the player to choose where he directs his attention. (This all applies to multi-player mostly, the single player experience in real time games is pretty weak for the most part) These kinds of games, in a multi-player situation that is at all competetive, makes for a very deep and exciting experience. To label a game as stinking to the heavens based on the presence of features that are expected to be in a genre is narrow minded. Games cannot break ground without trying to provide something different to the player. Tomo

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Post #: 27
- 12/30/2000 3:46:00 AM   
Charles22

 

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		That's what I get for being narrow-minded; playing by myself and all.

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Post #: 28
- 12/30/2000 5:24:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Does that mean you feel that I'm wrongfully calling you narrow minded because you play mostly single player and therefore my arguments against what you had earlier stated aren't relevant? If so, I'm sorry. If that's not what it means I don't quite get it. Tomo

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Post #: 29
- 12/30/2000 6:45:00 AM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline 		To go back to the original question, I have not come across any games like SPWAW. The Talonsoft series is like SP3 (or rather the other way around), but without the 3D effect. I don't know Tigers on the prowl II and Panthers in the shadows. If I am not mistaken they were around at the same time as SP1, and had some better features but poor graphics. I doubt that they hold a candle to SPWAW in its current sahpe. The old SP games and SPWW2 don't compare either. SPWAW is a much more refined product, even within its limitations, which are few. Sudden Strike is rubbish. It's arcade stuff. I'm sure some people will like it, but it is way underdeveloped as a game system. Close Combat is an altogether different game, and too limited in so many ways. Cool graphics and a promising game system, but again too many limitations to what you can do, and the modular development sucks. Combat Mission is promising, but is altogether a different game once more. The 3D graphics compare unfavorably with SPWAW. In SPWAW we have excellent bi-dimensional graphics. The 3d stuff available in CM is primitive, and sometimes outright weird. I am greatly looking forward to the way in which Matrix will eventually develop the SPWAW concept. ------------------ Fabs

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