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American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 6:30:49 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		For any of you who may have read my American torpedoe rant last weak well here is the update.......My head just exploded.....For the twenty-third, twenty-fourth and twenty-fifth time in a row the American subs. torpedoes failed to detonate against a Nip. CV. Three times in one turn American subs. shot torpedoes at the KAGA but none detonated. This has become absolutely absurd.
Post #: 1
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 6:36:53 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Sigh... The failure rate is not 100%, as you seem to think.

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RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 6:38:33 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

For any of you who may have read my American torpedoe rant last weak well here is the update.......My head just exploded.....For the twenty-third, twenty-fourth and twenty-fifth time in a row the American subs. torpedoes failed to detonate against a Nip. CV. Three times in one turn American subs. shot torpedoes at the KAGA but none detonated. This has become absolutely absurd.


You keep emphasizing attacks on CVs. How are your Mk14 results in total? From Sunk Ships?

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RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 6:46:49 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		What's absurd is his ability to get into launch position against CV's so many times.

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RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 7:22:30 PM   
pmelheck1

 

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		You can always turn off historical torpedoes.



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Post #: 5
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 7:33:23 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		Since I started the game using historical torpedoes I don't think you can change it after the first turn, though I could be wrong.

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Post #: 6
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 7:42:18 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

Since I started the game using historical torpedoes I don't think you can change it after the first turn, though I could be wrong.


If it's an AI game you might be able to.

I am also amazed you are getting so many shots at CVs with torpedoes. How is that happening?

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Post #: 7
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 8:01:56 PM   
roy2008


Posts: 42
Joined: 10/8/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		hey Stephen your dutch sub has hit my soryu and an ami sub has hit an CVL, this is enough

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RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 8:21:21 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		Roy, I don't count the dutch subs.

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Post #: 9
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 9:01:18 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		sdhunt, **** happens....

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Post #: 10
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 9:08:50 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		I know........

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Post #: 11
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 9:39:33 PM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		SDHUNDT:

I've been playing going on five years now. trust me when I tell you IMHO this is within the realm of normal results, but I am impressed you have actually got your subs into the same hex as the KB on several occasions so early in the game. That is noteworthy. Let me suggest you catalog your subs by torpedo types and check the editor. You will find that not all allied subs suffer 80% dud penalty in 42.

And it is my impression you are expecting your subs to be an effective fleet interdiction medium in 42. IME, this is not the case. When 43 and then 44 rolls around, you will be amazed how effective they can be. In 42, you have to be...patient...in most things allied - not just subs.

Good hunting.

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Post #: 12
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 9:45:46 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I'm still stunned at so many "Hit but no explosion" messages in a row because of the number of sub attacsk that such implies. Some sub attacks get "Fails to achieve firing position". Not all sub attacks that do fire torpedoes get torpedo hits. Only when you get an actual hit can the torpedo be a dud. So to have that many actual dud messages in a row means you have had what, at least 8 to 12 attacks against his carriers to result in 25 straight duds?

Dude, play the lottery!

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Post #: 13
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 10:08:04 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		I must admit not ALL were dud hits. I think one or two may have been misses :)

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Post #: 14
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 10:25:20 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I think for most of us, the majority of torpedoes that get launched against enemy carriers miss the target.

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Post #: 15
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/22/2011 10:28:33 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		Well for my game the majority were duds not misses. I think the game is trying to give me a stroke.

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Post #: 16
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 5/23/2011 6:21:39 AM   
YankeeAirRat


Posts: 633
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Wow I can't believe we are still flogging this dead horse on what now 8yrs, ever since WiTP showed up?

Sdhundt, take an honest and objective look at what everyone is trying to tell you. That your experiences are not the norm for both real life for engagements in the early part of the war and that the torpedos seem to be operating on the norm for the early part of the war. Finally, do your stats math again, because it doesn't seem like 100% failure based on number of torpedos per submarine and number of times they shoot, something just doesn't seem right with anything your telling us. I would almost suggest you post a verbatim combatreports.txt from a submarine engagement or even a saved file for folks to look at and see if they can find where the issue is.

You should take a look at RAdm S.E. Morrision's books on the US Navy's own history in the immediate post war, you will find that they talk about the horrible torpedos that the Navy had. Years ago I remember running across a USN/NARA produced book that talked about the whole history of the Submarine Offensive against the Axis Powers during WW2, it was a mult-volume set that talk about every last Submarine built and covered major points on each of its war patrols. If I remember they even had the numbers crunched on the real number of duds, miss, hit rates of the torpedos broken down by year, region, and even class. One of the biggest things the authors mention was how the dud rates of the torpedos were high, but due to BuOrd's claim that it was the commander's inability to use them right that was leading to dud. Another thing this book mentioned was how the early war Submarine commanders were afraid of being aggresive with thier submarines so that too lead to a number of missed firing chances and it was only by luck that those few which ran into the right places to engage convoys still expected the Japanese to steam like ducks in a row during a shooting gallery. If I remember from some of the studying that I have done, the closes that we had a USN submarine get to any of the IJN's fleet carriers was the USS Tambor (which had one Lt Ed A. Spruance, son of Raymond A Spruance, as a member of the crew). They had a fish eye view of the death of all four carriers from the dive bombers at Midway. However, they couldn't manuver successfully for a shot during the engagement since they were also heavily prosecuted at times by IJN's DD's. It wasn't until the Battle of the Phil Sea that a submarine had a chance against another IJN carrier and even then the USS Archerfish could be considered the last successful engagement of a submarine against a CV. Otherwise, the US Submarines just didn't seem to run across major IJN fleet units that often, rather they purposely went after the merchants and patroled the expected/suspected convoy routes.



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Post #: 17
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 8:33:05 AM   
chazz

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 4/30/2014
Status: offline 		I turn "Realistic US Torpedos OFF" for balancing. The Japanese subs in the game are Type VIIc U-Boats with Kretschmers and Priens in command. Very, very hard to kill. 90% of my ASW attacks fail. In about 30 attacks, I've only sunk one and damaged another.

Ahistorical.

IRL, Japanese subs (particularly the big 'uns) were slow divers and noisy.

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Thank you for your replies and advice!!

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Post #: 18
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 8:59:12 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		they are fine take it like man it gets better!

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RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 9:10:02 AM   
pharmy

 

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/3/2010
From: Bangkok/Budapest
Status: offline 		I am JFB and in early 1942 if I want to have my subs killed I visit the Indian Ocean or Australia and meet up with a British DD, DE, or KV and I have about a 25% chance of dying or serious injury. By 1943 a meeting with any DD from an Allied navy is very dangerous. Once captain's skill level's increase and ASW hits 8 or above, killing subs will be a whole lot easier. Also successful convoy attacks are harder, most successes are against ships sailing singly.

That being said, I do sink many more merchants then the IJN did historically, but this is also due to a WITP player using them for merchant attacks while WW2 the Japanese used them strictly for fleet actions. Allied subs are even harder to kill, except in shallows. Later on when Japan gets super Es, then it becomes a-historically easy. The IJN super Es should be nerfed in late war.

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Post #: 20
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 9:19:40 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub
take it like man


Happens rarely these days.

quote:

I turn "Realistic US Torpedos OFF" for balancing. The Japanese subs in the game are Type VIIc U-Boats with Kretschmers and Priens in command. Very, very hard to kill. 90% of my ASW attacks fail. In about 30 attacks, I've only sunk one and damaged another.

Ahistorical.


Contrary to what you believe, turning reliable USN torps to 'ON' unbalances the game and makes it ahistorical.


chazz, just a general advice wrt this game and this forum: If you do not accept the complexity of WitP AE, and do not start to search and identify own faults before blaming something else, you will find it difficult to impossible to both understand and enjoy the game.

That you as a new player are unable to cope with IJN sub threat just says something about the learning curve of the game and about your expectations in relation to your actions, but nothing about the capability to cope with the sub threat in general.

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RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 9:23:19 AM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline 		In 1942, US sub torpedo aren't able to sink a capital warship, I mean even if you hit is successful the carrier will get so tiny damage, she will return to port anyway. You should use them on the merchant fleet what they are supposed to do.

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Post #: 22
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 9:43:10 AM   
pharmy

 

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/3/2010
From: Bangkok/Budapest
Status: offline 		If your an AFB and want warship successes early on then I recommend Dutch or British subs vs the mini-KB - if I sail it too deep into the DEI I usually lose a CVL. The CVL will probably survive the hit, but with the nearest repair yard being far away (and with Japanese damage control), they usually succumb. The Bay of Bengal is also incredibly dangerous if infested with subs. Gaspote, sometimes even tiny damage on a CV is months of yard time, which is terrible early in the game when you are racing against the amphib bonus timeout. And depends which carrier - IJN CVLs have a durability below 40 - the Hiryu and Soryu around 60. The Shokakus are more survivable with 90 and the ex-BB/BC Kaga are almost imperishable with something like 120.

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RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 10:03:00 AM   
pharmy

 

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/3/2010
From: Bangkok/Budapest
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chazz

I turn "Realistic US Torpedos OFF" for balancing. The Japanese subs in the game are Type VIIc U-Boats with Kretschmers and Priens in command. Very, very hard to kill. 90% of my ASW attacks fail. In about 30 attacks, I've only sunk one and damaged another.

Ahistorical.

IRL, Japanese subs (particularly the big 'uns) were slow divers and noisy.


What date are you at in the game - here is the list of IJN subs lost - use it for comparison - http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SubLosses/SS_losses-japanese.html - it seems that in 42 only 7 IJN subs were sunk by DDs and the like

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Post #: 24
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 12:51:13 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

For any of you who may have read my American torpedoe rant last weak well here is the update.......My head just exploded.....For the twenty-third, twenty-fourth and twenty-fifth time in a row the American subs. torpedoes failed to detonate against a Nip. CV. Three times in one turn American subs. shot torpedoes at the KAGA but none detonated. This has become absolutely absurd.



Your frustrations are miniscule compared to those crews on the actual pigboats of that navy..that era.....Suggest a great read...SILENT VICTORY by Clay Blair........

I'm sure most of us have felt our hormones surge seeing a nice juicy target lined up...just to see the darned thing get away unscathed, while our subs then undergo an intense depth charge attack....

Just like real life for those poor guys..............






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by m10bob -- 6/19/2014 2:04:43 PM >

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RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 1:06:59 PM   
pmelheck1

 

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		I remember reading an account of a sub firing at a disabled ship in perfect firing position and perfect range and ALL torps hit and were duds. He kept his last torp to return to pearl to be analyzed as to why every single shot was a dud. Some of the accounts I've seen would think 80% dud was generous as to what was actually happening. I read why the torp was bad and am somewhat surprised that any exploded.

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Post #: 26
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 1:42:54 PM   
tiemanjw

 

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline 		as others have said, US torps were awful early in the war. I understand your frustration - as I have invented more curse words for those torps than successful attacks. But this is only part of your problem. Even though you keep seeing the "HIT! No explosion" message, it doesn't mean that all your torps hit, but rather just 1 (or more). CVs are hard to hit targets as they can travel at high speeds so fewer torps are going to hit (only 1 or 2 per attack, if any hit at all). Try attacking merchants - they are slower, and you can usually get multiple hits in one attack. 2 Hits, and your effective dud rate goes to 64%, or roughly 1/3 of your "hits" will be successful. Plus those tankers burn easy. All that said though, you are still going to tear your hair out, as most of those juicy tankers and fat merchants still get away.

Also, as others have alluded to... I am envious of the number of times you got into firing position! Turn that on his tankers, and he will be out of gas by mid '43.

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Post #: 27
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 3:03:24 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		In the first four months of the war the submarines of the Asiatic Fleet made 136 attacks, fired 300 torps - and sank only 10 ships.

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RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 3:29:27 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		"I'm Baaack!"

This thread has arisen from its slumber!




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Post #: 29
RE: American sub. failure update......... - 6/19/2014 8:42:43 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

"I'm Baaack!"

This thread has arisen from its slumber!






Dude was so good in "Forbidden Planet" and all those TV dramas from the late 50's to early '70s; flips a switch and becomes one of the funniest actors ever.

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