Effect of ground attacks?

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Effect of ground attacks? - 5/25/2011 7:22:35 AM

7th Somersets

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I appreciate that the general wisdom is that ground attacks have very little effect on the game.... but I am trying to see the effects for myself so as to learn :)

Does anyone know how ground units recover from attacks - for example - If I attack and destroy 20 Mk IVs in Italy in a German tank Divn... the unit seems to recover gradually. Is this recovery in the same way that attacks on industrial targets recover - ie at a given rate/turn? Or is there a pool of Mk IVs somewhere that is getting depleted.

I am wondering whether there is any benefit in hitting the French based armoured formations at the same time so as to reduce the rate of recovery of units in key areas (assuming that the game will allocate any replacements evenly).

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 5/25/2011 5:13:35 PM

lastdingo

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There's a pool, and the speed of recovery depends also on the state of the railway stations on the supply line.

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 5/26/2011 10:50:45 AM

7th Somersets

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Thanks - that is good news - I have been hammering the railways too thinking that might happen...

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 5/26/2011 12:35:47 PM

lastdingo

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The game does checks on the line divisions and once enough checks have been failed, the line is broken. The line also breaks on historical date anyway.

I bomb ground troops mostly for training purposes, at max. service altitude.

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 5/27/2011 7:40:20 PM

kaybayray

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7th <S>

Yes true, ground attack is not a major focus of this game.

You can effect Ground Units in a few ways. You can attack them directly and do damage to them and cause disruption values to increase. You can interdict their supply lines and cause disruption to increase. You can employ both tactics and effect their disruption to a bit greater extent.

I would not recommend attacking them directly. They represent Divisional units and typically have hundreds of large and medium caliber AA weapons that tend to shred your AC. I would recommend working on their supply lines. Hitting Transportation targets such as Rail and Port facilities that are on their supply line will have an effect on them. If they are on the front lines engaged with Allied ground forces this will have a bit greater effect on them. Early in the campaign you will see this in the southern boot of Italy and later on the western half of the continent after Overlord.

To determine which targets are in their supply line just click on them and a white line tracing back from them through transporation targets will show you their supply lines. If you check many or all units in a region you can find critical supply hubs that supply many or all units in that region. If you focus on those targets you can effect many Ground units simultaneously. Doing this will also facilitate some mandatory targeting constraints you will encounter during the course of a campaign.

Keep in mind that the Transportation grid in the game is a bit abstract. If you destroy all Transportation targets they will still get supplied by things under the hood you dont see. Like Trucks and Wagons for instance. Also from my observations it seems that the Transportation grid is a bit like a pool of sorts. It seems to react as if it is a gelatinous system where you can effect its overall performance by percent damage to the overall capacity. Please dont take this as etched in stone because I am not sure about it but in my experience it seems to behave this way.

Later,
KayBay

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It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 5/27/2011 9:02:11 PM

7th Somersets

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KayBay,

Many thanks for that. Really helpful - as are your other posts on the 43 scenario that have saved many of my bombers!

I have been doing a lot of direct attacks on ground units with ground attack and medium bombers - and am getting the results that you said... although I seem to be killing many enemy tanks. It is affecting my air to air loss ratios badly though...

So much to learn.

Cheers.

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 5/31/2011 8:13:36 PM

kaybayray

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Hey 7th <S>

Dont get discouraged by bad days or perhaps learning that a particular strategy or tactic you have been working on doesnt do well or may even be disasterous. Remember that that is part of the fun of this fantastic game. By taking on the Role of the AAF in Europe and the Med you are going to learn some hard lessons and attempt many modifications before you find success.... just as was the case in History. The 43 Campaign is very long and will allow you room to make many errors and still recover. As long as you dont take too long to figure out that you are having a problem.

Most of what little I understand about this game came at the loss of many Air Crews and Aircraft. I have to plead ignorance with respect to the Luftwaffe as I am only now beginning to work with them. So I know nothing about them. I would really recommend reading through many of the various threads in this General Forum as well as the AAR Forum and The War Room. Tons of things in there written by those that dwarf my pitiful understanding of this great game.

Later,
KayBay

_____________________________

It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter

(in reply to 7th Somersets)

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 6/1/2011 10:10:08 PM

7th Somersets

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KayBay,

Thanks - I have been looking about as you suggest.

The key thing that I have 'discovered' - as you have said many times - recon.

There is something special about catching the Luftwaffe on the ground - or landing.

I would be interested in seeing your (or others) views on daylight bombing. I am too early for effective long range fighter support in my current (43) game and have been keeping my daylight raids pretty close - and with lots of fighter support - sometimes successfully drawing the Germans out over the English Channel where they are most vulnerable (and where there is a lower chance of recovering any pilots that bail out). The problem with this though is the inability to inflict really heavy damage. I am not sure whether this is something that I need to wait for, or whether I am losing the war by degrees... time will tell.

A great game - and not only because both of my Grandfathers were involved in the air war.

Regards.

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 6/2/2011 12:46:52 AM

lastdingo

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You can do some low-risk attack runs (light bombers with escorts), note the locations a, strength and time of fighter sorties and watch the map for the timing of fighters returning to airfield. Make notes.

Next day, you do the exact same low-risk attack runs.
You also create a couple of fighter sweeps that catch the landing fighters (with P-38, for example) and hammer 'em after landing (with P-47, for example).

Follow that up by exploiting their weakened state by lightly-escorted medium bomber raids against otherwise risky targets.

Similar; make notes about the origin of nightfighters, raid those airfields in daylight with P-47s. Don't raid them if the launching nightfighters are of an obsolete model (the Lw has probably a huge stock of them due to decommissioning anyway). Prioritize new model nightfighter group bases.

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 6/2/2011 8:02:17 AM

7th Somersets

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lastdingo,

Thanks for those tips. I hadn't realised that some of the German nightfighters were obsolete and being decomissioned. My original goal has been to try to destroy enemy pilots rather than aircraft. I am working on the assumption that I want to reduce the numbers/quality of enemy pilots, and also - reading other posts - that pilots can be killed/injured in attacks on aircraft on the ground.

As ever with this game - so much detail - so much to learn.

Regards.

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 6/2/2011 12:17:31 PM

lastdingo

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You can afaik only kill the pilots if they're in their aircraft.
Nightfighter pilots are not ready and in their aircraft during daytime (hence the terribly long sortie delay that makes the JG 300 and JG 301 so useless for daylight defences).

The first 110 and 88 versions get updated with better radars, but the newer night fighters are still significantly better. There's just no ultimate (and practical) nightfighter (that would have been the He 419 if implemented).

Night attacks should not happen daily on a large scale (safe for the Mosquito squadrons and low skill squadrons attacking a very close target, such as the division at Calais, for training). This means that airfield attacks a few hours before dawn can push nightfighter readiness down in time for a 1,000 night bomber raid in the night. Add in night intruder patrols on the nightfighter bases to shoot down returning NFs.

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RE: Effect of ground attacks? - 6/2/2011 8:00:05 PM

kaybayray

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Hey 7th <S>

Just some more thoughts of mine here. As lastdingo is saying, make notes... as I also do... and as I say.. Recon Recon Recon... and then .. more Recon. Make notes of what your recon sorties see. Make notes of what AC types are intercepting your Daylight forces, what fields they are operating out of, Altitudes they travel at and Patrol at (if you can get it). Use your Recon to reinforce your observations then act on it.

OK, with respect to Killing Luftwaffe Pilots Vs Destroying AC. There are a couple strategies here that you might consider. Yes only destroying their AC will not reduce their Pilot Pool but there is more than one way to choke a dog. If you want to get KIA's you have to shoot them down when engaging them, when they a landing or catch them on the ground when they are preparing to launch an intercept. IE: The Pilots have to be in the AC not the Barracks. There are several ways of doing each.

Shooting them down when they intercept you is challenging early in the Campaign as you have limited AC that can do so depending upon the Theater you are working in. You don't have much depth of those AC so you have to be careful how you deploy them. Yes P-47's and P-38's do much better at Fighter Sweeps than most other birds do but they are the core of your Long Range Escort forces. I would be very weary of using them in Fighter Sweep roles as IMHO they are more valuable to you in the Long Range Escort role. I would recommend stacking your escorts in High Escort up to 5k or so above your Heavy Bombers. This will allow you opportunities to get KIA's during their intercepts. This is only one way but its a start.

Catching them on the ground preparing to launch is very very challenging as it requires extreme timing and coordination to achieve. This can be done as the result of Recon and Note taking of what I mentioned above. It takes patience and the willingness to run into a meat grinder occassionally. Hey, no pain.. no gain.. right? Fighter Sweeps will accomplish this but you need to be choosy here or you will get shredded by AA.

Bouncing them as they land is by far the esiest way to get KIA's.. but.... yeah there is alway the but... I personally don't set this kind of operation up due to IMHO it basically working as a BUG during game play. There are many issues with how this actually works as compared to how IMO it should work. The results obtained are extreme and exceptionally Ahistoric IMHO. I therefore do not do this as it spoils the game. IMHO running these kinds of operations is "Gaming the Game" and playing on a known weakness in the mechanics of the game. You can do it or not, I dont care, I am not gona flame you for doing so cause its a game, but it is like talking when a guy is making a 12 foot putt. It's just not done.

Now, why would you just want to destroy AC as opposed to getting KIA's of Luftwaffe Pilots? Well... of course KIA's are always preferrable but there is a method to this madness. Here is something to consider. If I run a Fighter Sweep at an Airfield that is known to operate Day Fighters.. like 109's or 190's in particular... any AC Damaged or Destroyed during that Sweep is not going to engage my Daylight forces that day. Being that the typical Luftwaffe Staffel is 26 or less AC, damaging and/or destroying 5-10 AC can have a significant impact on the potential the Luftwaffe has to inflict damage on my forces that day with each Staffel I hit.

I tend to focus on Daylight interceptor AC with my Daylight Fighter forces. I also tend to focus on NJG AC with my Night Fighter forces. Check my thread in the War Room as to a basic way to setup Intruders to destroy NJG AC. Just some of my ways and there are many others. Probably better than mine as well.

I am still working on my Daylight Strategic Bombing section for my thread in the War Room. It will be a while as I keep rewriting it because I am not happyt with it yet. Hopefully within a month or two I will have a portion of it ready to post. We will see.

At any rate keep checking out all the stuff on this forum and you will find all kinds of things to do and have fun with.

Later,
KayBay

_____________________________

It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter

(in reply to lastdingo)

Post #: 12