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Someone explain this to me ? - 5/22/2011 9:52:44 AM   
crazyjohn

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/14/2010
Status: offline 		Back to basics again.

If there are two divisions call them a and b each with 10 rifle inf and identical stats morale,exp,etc how is the battle outcome decided if division a attacks division b in a open field ?


Why do i get a lot of battles which stall even when i significantly outnumber the defended enemy division ?
Post #: 1
RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/22/2011 10:49:47 AM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Can't answer A for you as I'm not a numbercruncher (that is what decides the outcome of a battle)

Concerning B though, (hard to tell without a savefile or screenshot), the defender in ATG has a better chance to survive than in AT. So you may outnumber your opponent, you better be sure you also have enough Action Points left (as in do your units still have enough supply, as that influences their readiness), you also have to make sure you outclass your opponent. I mean, attacking with overwhelming numbers doesn't help you much if it's Inf against MG's and Armor. Lots of Rifles against a few submachine guns and MG"S well dug in will still result in a stall. Especially when your unit is low on readiness and without a HQ.
You can also try using Artillery and Bombers (especially the level bombers. They *rule* against Inf in the open!) to soften them up.
As I said, much easier to tell with a savefile attached.

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RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/22/2011 11:54:48 AM   
Tac2i


Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
Status: offline 		As Josh pointed out raw numbers is only one of several factors involved in combat calculations. Morale, experience, readiness and headquarters power all play a part as does terrain.

< Message edited by Webizen -- 5/22/2011 11:56:48 AM >

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RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/22/2011 5:02:30 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyjohn

Back to basics again.

If there are two divisions call them a and b each with 10 rifle inf and identical stats morale,exp,etc how is the battle outcome decided if division a attacks division b in a open field ?


Why do i get a lot of battles which stall even when i significantly outnumber the defended enemy division ?


If they are both rifle infantry, the attacking unit will have no chance at all, because rifle infantry is bad in the attack and good on the defence.

Outnumber by how much? The numbers take into account readiness and experience, and I found them to be a good indicator. But these odds should be at least 5:1 or more. Also if you are attacking with rifle infantry without mortars in rough terrain against entrenched enemies with machineguns, you will have no chance. In general, a strong enemy stack can only be knocked back by first attacking with artillery followed by air power. This can whittle down a 200-pt stack to 10-30 points, after which your 150-point attack from multiple directions can practically annihilate the enemy stack.

As pointed out elsewhere, all of your attacking infantry should have a few mortars, and unless in clear terrain should be SMG not rifles.

Henri

< Message edited by henri51 -- 5/22/2011 5:04:10 PM >

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RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/23/2011 4:04:07 PM   
phatkarp


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Joined: 4/14/2011
Status: offline 		You should check out the detailed view of the battle results screen. This will give you an idea of how effective your individual units are.

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RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/23/2011 10:49:51 PM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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Joined: 7/24/2007
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quote:

Why do i get a lot of battles which stall even when i significantly outnumber the defended enemy division?


See World War I for more information.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 5/23/2011 10:50:03 PM >

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RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/24/2011 12:27:37 AM   
crazyjohn

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/14/2010
Status: offline 		When the enemy manages to build its front line though a forest and supplies it how do you break though if artillery is not very effective and armor incurs penalty and rifle/smg inf is only used on defence ?


What attacking odds should you use on attacking a enemy unit made of 40rile,5mortor,5mg and green in terms of experience ?

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RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/24/2011 12:55:57 AM   
Tac2i


Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
Status: offline 		Breaking through a well defended line in rough type terrain can be difficult, as it should be. It can also take several turns to accomplish. You either go around it or pound it turn after turn with artillery and/or air attacks. The longer a unit suffers artillery/air attack on consecutive turns, the lower its morale will go. If you can locate the enemy HQ, attack it too with artillery, if in reach, or with air attack.


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RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/24/2011 10:16:47 AM   
JJKettunen


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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

Why do i get a lot of battles which stall even when i significantly outnumber the defended enemy division?


See World War I for more information.


The problem in WWI was that there were no means to quickly exploit any breaches in enemy lines. Nothing to do with odds.

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Post #: 9
RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/25/2011 9:43:55 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I've been implementing Dupuy's QJM-model for the scen I'm making, and comparing the data to default values, I'd say there are a couple of problems with the latter, which means that to win a battle one needs ahistorical high odds to succeed:

1) while automatic entrenchment values are a bit too low, max entrenchment values are way too high

2) higher defensive than attacking power for most SFTs, while it feels logical on tactical level, doesn't make sense on the operational/strategic level this game works on.

All this in my humble opinion, of course.

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Post #: 10
RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/25/2011 2:29:24 PM   
crazyjohn

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/14/2010
Status: offline 		Is there any good noob friendly tutorial on how combat works in at gold i know there is really good easy to understand tutorial on how supply mechanics work but for a typical battle like unit a vs unit b works and how readiness,morale,entrenchment etc effects the outcome ?


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Post #: 11
RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/25/2011 4:27:30 PM   
phatkarp


Posts: 131
Joined: 4/14/2011
Status: offline 		None that I know of.  But Vic is doing an "Advanced Tactics College" series that I think will fill this gap.  He has two chapters up, but there is a long way to go.

What I've done is gone back and very carefully read the manual.  The answers are usually there, but they are usually obscure.  For example, I've been trying to tease out the effect of Staff experience in HQ units.  I gather that there is a bonus to experience gained, morale, and combat effectiveness. 

The good news is that you can be a very effective general so long as you have a basic knowledge of the units, which you can get from the in-game information screens.  The "compare unit" feature is particularly helpful for figuring out the relative advantages and disadvantages of units.  For example, I just figured out that infantry guns are better on offense than defense, and are apparently intended as an offensive weapon.  Who knew?

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Post #: 12
RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/26/2011 1:16:19 PM   
crazyjohn

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/14/2010
Status: offline 		The manual could be better ie written more clearly more examples given etc your sort of left in the dark a little about about how combat work.

Why do some battles have different number of combat rounds, what governs the number of combat rounds that are played out?



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Post #: 13
RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/26/2011 1:32:42 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyjohn

The manual could be better ie written more clearly more examples given etc your sort of left in the dark a little about about how combat work.

Why do some battles have different number of combat rounds, what governs the number of combat rounds that are played out?





The amount of acation points (AP) your attacking forces have when the combat starts affects how many rounds of combat there are. More AP's = more combat rounds.

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RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/26/2011 1:32:57 PM   
Twotribes


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Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyjohn

The manual could be better ie written more clearly more examples given etc your sort of left in the dark a little about about how combat work.

Why do some battles have different number of combat rounds, what governs the number of combat rounds that are played out?





Available AP of the attacker.

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Post #: 15
RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/26/2011 1:53:32 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		It is also dependent upon how much punishment either side can withstand.

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Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 16
RE: Someone explain this to me ? - 5/26/2011 3:22:18 PM   
pvthudson01


Posts: 464
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

Why do i get a lot of battles which stall even when i significantly outnumber the defended enemy division?


See World War I for more information.


LOL

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