Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Sovet Truck Park

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Sovet Truck Park Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Sovet Truck Park - 5/28/2011 3:01:09 PM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
In one of my most recent games I was doing pretty well as the soviets; I had plenty of APs and a non-trivial tank pool (at least 3k tanks in the park). So naturally I built a mess of tank corps that then proceeded to spend most of the game at about 20 movement points because I had a massive truck deficit ... something like 70k (216k) was pretty typical.

My question for the group is, does anyone have any advice at keeping the soviet truck park running at an appropriate size? I feel like if I expand the mechanized army to its natural limits in 1942/1943 I won't have the trucks to support it. I'm not sure if this is historical or not, but it does seem to be a game constraint.

Are there any suggestions to mitigate this? Things I can do to run more tanks with less trucks, keep my trucks alive, build a truck surplus, etc?
Post #: 1
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/28/2011 3:12:29 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Trucks will not keep up, alas. This is one of the reasons the Soviets are never going to make heavy use of HQ buildups. The Axis can contrive to produce a truck surplus for most of the game and can afford to burn these, which will never be the case for the USSR.

There does indeed come a point where you really no longer want to build more units for sheer logistical reasons. The gain in mass is offset by the loss in mobility.

I recently concluded a private playtest and by 1943 was barely able to manage 60% or so of my truck requirements. This was with a roughly historical size mobile force. (36-40 tank/mech corps is about the historical maximum, with a 2:1 ratio between tank and mech corps.)

The upshot of this is to make cavalry corps incredibly valuable due to their mobility; they pay lower terrain costs, are less fuel dependent, and generally stay far closer to their MP maximums than the mech units. They are not even very much weaker than the tank or mech corps, particularly with tank battalion attachments. The later TOE for them gives them a sizable organic AFV component on top of that, so it's quite possible to build up cavalry corps with 200+ AFVs.

I personally think the Soviet truck pool needs some looking into as they are permanently starved for these in the game.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to pat.casey)
Post #: 2
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/28/2011 3:15:23 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		This is historical. The choke point for the Russian mobile forces is trucks, not tanks. A lot of what you do in 1941 has a huge effect the rest of the game.

If you look at most Russian AAR's, they stick their armor and especially motorized infantry units into checkerboards, etc. To me, some of it is necessary, but it is a mistake to do it on a wholesale level. The reason why? Because they have tons of trucks in those units. How many of those units the Russians lose (IE surrounded and surrendered) determines how many trucks are available later.

If given a choice (and no, I have not played a AAR yet as the Russians) you won't see motorized infantry around after the first couple of turns. I look to put them static someplace (raking in a lot of extra AP's along the way) and save the trucks (should be between 1500-1800 per division). After they switch to infantry divisions, I reactivate them for 3 AP's. The tank divisions, I have a tendency to make them the last line of defense and use them for digging.

In part of all this is why the Germans need to do the Lvov pocket on turn 1. They simply need to put all those trucks out of commission or pay for it later.

Now, as far as management of tank corps. First, the Russians had more tank corps than they could support with trucks (check the scenarios). If you want good truck support, your tank corp force is going to be smaller. The other thing you can do is build fewer tank corps and more tank battalions/regiments.

Readers digest version is what you do with your motorized/tank divisions in 1941 plays a huge role in your truck situation for the rest of the war.

(in reply to pat.casey)
Post #: 3
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/28/2011 3:17:52 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Klydon, the truck shortage ingame is far greater than the historical one, particularly in the late war.



_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 4
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/28/2011 3:29:14 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Saw that in your post. I should rephrase and say that it is historical for the Russians to be short trucks for the mech/tank force they fielded. That the game has them even shorter than historical makes it even tougher. 

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 5
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/28/2011 8:27:29 PM   
Arstavidios

 

Posts: 780
Joined: 11/19/2004
Status: offline 		Also you have to be careful about your truck factories. You cannot afford to lose them.
Most of your trucks will come through lend lease eventually.
i agree that the Tank - motorized divisions in 1941 are a critical source for trucks and APs. For the germans they should be priority targets.
as for tanks the soviets are producing a large surplus. Actually it's somewhat frustrating to see thousands of tanks piling up in the pools while you're desperately short of trucks, knowing that you cannot shift production.

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 6
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/28/2011 10:36:06 PM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios
<snip> Actually it's somewhat frustrating to see thousands of tanks piling up in the pools while you're desperately short of trucks, knowing that you cannot shift production.



This :).

I'd dearly love to play a variant of this game that gave both players (axis and soviets) full control over the economy, something similar to the level of detail of Japan in WITP.

I realize it'd be wildly ahistorical.

It is, nonetheless, a game I'd love to play and happily play for.

(in reply to Arstavidios)
Post #: 7
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/29/2011 1:36:17 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Klydon, the truck shortage ingame is far greater than the historical one, particularly in the late war.




What's the design decision on this? Balance? Curious....

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 8
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/29/2011 1:04:27 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		I'm going to guess here, but I think it's unintended to a certain extent. There was no way to see what the Soviet motor pool would look like in a game between humans in 1945 with 1941 as a starting point without playing such a game pre-release with a recent version, which due to the time requirements for that and the rapid release of new versions was not possible.

I'll copy and paste my post from the tester forum on cavalry corps, it doesn't include any confidential information:

quote:

OK, some additional thoughts:

A (Guards) Tank corps with a morale higher than 56 but lower than 71 can move a distance of 12 enemy clear hexes with 50 MP's. 4(1 for clear hex, 3 for moving into an enemy hex)x12=48. It's a rarity that mobile units will have 50 MP's. Let's say the Tank corps has 30 MP's, which is still higher than average when you've been attacking for multiple turns. It can move 7 hexes into enemy held clear terrain.

A (Guards) Cavalry corps with a morale higher than 56 but lower than 71 can move a distance of 7 enemy clear hexes with 22 MP's. 3(1 for clear hex, 3 for moving into an enemy hex-1 for being a cavalry unit)x7=21. It's not too difficult for cavalry units to get full MP's when they have a good leader, but let's say the unit has 18 MP's on average which allows it to move a distance of 6 clear hexes.

If the terrain includes any non-clear hexes, the advantage quickly swings to the cavalry corps. The cavalry corps can also in many cases make two or even three deliberate attacks during its turn, the Tank corps can at best make one.

Cavalry corps do require a lot more support squads (555) than Tank corps, but that's mostly because Tank corps have a poor supply situation. With two Tank battalions/regiments, a cavalry corps has ~100 tanks in 1942, which is acceptable. Of course, Tank Corps switch to a maximum of 162 at their first upgrade, so around 240 with two Tank battalions/regiments, but they're still seriously lacking staying power in terms of squad strength, something cavalry corps have plenty of generally. In February 1943, cavalry corps switch to a maximum of 135 tanks, which puts them at 213 tanks with 2 Tank regiments or 177 if you give them two Heavy Tank regiments.


Why is that relevant? Because cavalry formations require less trucks, so checking what you can do with them is worth it. Even with attachments, a fuel strength cavalry corps uses around 300-400 trucks I believe. Compare that to a mechanized corps which fairly easily requires 10 times as many trucks.

Also note that there's no limit to the amount of cavalry formations that can become Guards, so on average their morale will be higher than 56 whilst the average Tank corps will still be struggling to get there for a while.

I'm currently playing a vs. AI game where I won't build any Tank or mechanized corps, just cavalry corps, primarily to see what that does for my motor pool.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 5/29/2011 1:08:31 PM >

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 9
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/30/2011 4:17:53 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Soviet truck pools have been all over the place. In the past, we were perhaps overly generous with them and had to cut back. Now I tend to think it's gone a bit too far in the other direction. Not easy to find the sweet spot here.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 10
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/30/2011 10:36:40 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		If the Soviet makes it a point early to make armor/mech divisions static you can come up with a ton of trucks. In my latest game as Soviets I have almost 270k saved up by turn 12.

Is that more then usual and working as intended?




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 11
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/30/2011 11:21:17 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		One of the reasons that is such an impressive number is you don't have a lot of formations using trucks. (99k worth). I am sure that number will come down during mud, etc. The other thing is those tank units will turn to brigades at some point and they will be very expensive to reactivate (or at least they were for me in past games). You can't just disband them while they are static either unfortunately. 

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 12
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 1:32:07 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

One of the reasons that is such an impressive number is you don't have a lot of formations using trucks. (99k worth). I am sure that number will come down during mud, etc. The other thing is those tank units will turn to brigades at some point and they will be very expensive to reactivate (or at least they were for me in past games). You can't just disband them while they are static either unfortunately. 


Most of the 1 and 2 CV tank/mech divisions that had the trucks were garrisons for places like Odessa and Kiev. They also make great MP sponges for checkerboards. Most of them wind up destroyed when I play but you are correct in the fact spending 11 aps to activate a tank brigade is a bit much.

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 13
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 3:10:10 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		The Soviet truck shortages are historical, Russia didn’t have the capacity to turn their army into a mechanized force that could compare to anything the Germans had, even after the tide had turned. I for one think things should remain as they are now.

According to WWII a Statistical Survey, in section 7 chart 91 the USSR built a total of 197,100 military trucks and Lorries during the war. Comparatively the Germans built 345,914. Factor in the small production numbers of the various axis minors and you probably have the axis building close to twice the numbers of new trucks that the Soviets managed to produce.

Severe rubber shortages in Russia (they had no rubber industry of their own) were probably the biggest culprit to such low production numbers of wheeled vehicles, and that choke point could only be overcome if the allied navies could ship either rubber stock or finished goods into Russia via lend lease.

If you then figure in all the captured trucks Germany confiscated from its western conquests, I’d say Germany’s motor pool was probably close to three times as large as Russia’s. So no matter how well the war was going, Russia was never going to achieve mechanization to the same degree that the German’s enjoyed early in the war. I think the game comes close to getting things right the way it is modeled now.

Jim


_____________________________


(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 14
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 3:18:07 AM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

The Soviet truck shortages are historical, Russia didn’t have the capacity to turn their army into a mechanized force that could compare to anything the Germans had, even after the tide had turned. I for one think things should remain as they are now.

According to WWII a Statistical Survey, in section 7 chart 91 the USSR built a total of 197,100 military trucks and Lorries during the war. Comparatively the Germans built 345,914. Factor in the small production numbers of the various axis minors and you probably have the axis building close to twice the numbers of new trucks that the Soviets managed to produce.

Severe rubber shortages in Russia (they had no rubber industry of their own) were probably the biggest culprit to such low production numbers of wheeled vehicles, and that choke point could only be overcome if the allied navies could ship either rubber stock or finished goods into Russia via lend lease.

If you then figure in all the captured trucks Germany confiscated from its western conquests, I’d say Germany’s motor pool was probably close to three times as large as Russia’s. So no matter how well the war was going, Russia was never going to achieve mechanization to the same degree that the German’s enjoyed early in the war. I think the game comes close to getting things right the way it is modeled now.

Jim



I think you're forgetting lend lease.

The soviets got a total of about 350k trucks (150k 1.5 ton and 200k 2.5 ton) through lend lease.

If I remember correctly by 1945 over half of the soviet motor pool was lend lease trucks of one sort of another.

The massive influx of trucks from lend lease let the soviets concentrate their auto industry almost exclusively on tanks, which is one of the ways they got such impressive tank production numbers from their industrial base.

So if you add lend lease to the domestic production you quoted above, we get:

Historical soviets: 200k domestic, 350k lend lease -> 550k trucks (ball park)
Historical axis: 350k domestic -> 350k trucks (ball park)

Based on that I'd naively expect the soviet truck park to outnumber the axis truck park, although they also had a much larger army so its entirely possible that their *relatively* truck shortage was greater. Its also possible that something unique about the soviet army caused them to burn trucks faster than the axis, to the point that even given 60% more trucks entering the system their peak truck park never caught up; I don't have the data on that one way or another.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 15
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 3:20:33 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		How many trucks came via lend lease in comparison to all the trucks the Russians built themselves?

Thanks, you answered my Q before I even asked :)

< Message edited by Michael T -- 5/31/2011 3:22:04 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 16
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 4:14:58 AM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
According to WWII a Statistical Survey, in section 7 chart 91 the USSR built a total of 197,100 military trucks and Lorries during the war. Comparatively the Germans built 345,914. Factor in the small production numbers of the various axis minors and you probably have the axis building close to twice the numbers of new trucks that the Soviets managed to produce.



I have the following for production of trucks and buses in the SU.

1940 - 139879
1941 - 118704
1942 - 32409
1943 - 46720
1944 - 55167
1945 - 69662

Table C.1., Accounting for War, Mark Harrison. Sourced from the Soviet figures.

I guess the definition of 'military trucks and lorries' is going to explain the difference in numbers (as opposed to the Soviets building a lot of buses ;) ) though the Soviet figures are closer as a definition match to the USSBS figures for Grossreich German truck production of 409458 from January 1940 through end of February 1945. (I can't get the figure of 345914 to work for the USSBS' figures - it seems to be c.30k too high even when assuming 'military trucks' means trucks allocated to military over civilian uses).

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 17
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 4:22:42 AM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Another issue is the Axis trucks compared poorly with their allied (especially US) counter parts. The Opal Blitz was a single axle, rear wheel drive vehicle. While this is great on paved roads in good weather, in Russia, not so much. The US trucks featured double axles in the back and 10 wheel drive.

The other thing was the Russians also got a lot of half track vehicles as well I believe, and those were certainly very useful in Russia.

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 18
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 4:40:30 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I'm seeing Soviet truck pools of far less than 200k (closer to 150k) by 1943, and that's versus the AI with comparatively minor losses. I think this is rather low.

You can temporarily inflate the figure in 1941 by static games, but this doesn't persist and attrition eats away at it.





_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 19
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 4:44:11 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm seeing Soviet truck pools of far less than 200k (closer to 150k) by 1943, and that's versus the AI with comparatively minor losses. I think this is rather low.

You can temporarily inflate the figure in 1941 by static games, but this doesn't persist and attrition eats away at it.


And the "static games" really don't effect the total number of trucks by about 1jan42 because the the trucks you get by grounding mech, mot, and arm units you get anyway when the tank divisions change to tank brigades and the mot/mech units change to infantry. By grounding them you just get the trucks a little sooner.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 20
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 4:51:02 AM   
lycortas

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 9/26/2008
Status: offline 		I don't know if this was accounted for but the Soviets used their large tractor production for artillery movers and short (near the front) supply movers.

Flaviusx, is this accounted for in these figures?

Mike

_____________________________

That's no moon, it's a space station!

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 21
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 4:56:40 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		It's accounted for it to the extent that Soviet vehicle production isn't amazing.

My sense is the problem here is one of repair and attrition and replacements not keeping up with trucks lost due to attrition and breakdowns. So the pool of available trucks isn't growing much or at all past 1942. Even the big ramp up in lend lease deliveries from 43 on isn't enough to overcome the breakdowns.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to lycortas)
Post #: 22
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 5:22:24 AM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm seeing Soviet truck pools of far less than 200k (closer to 150k) by 1943, and that's versus the AI with comparatively minor losses. I think this is rather low.

You can temporarily inflate the figure in 1941 by static games, but this doesn't persist and attrition eats away at it.


And the "static games" really don't effect the total number of trucks by about 1jan42 because the the trucks you get by grounding mech, mot, and arm units you get anyway when the tank divisions change to tank brigades and the mot/mech units change to infantry. By grounding them you just get the trucks a little sooner.


Very true, but what the Russian can control to some extent is how many of the tank and motorized divisions are in harms way to get surrounded and cut to pieces. I am not saying it is easy, but trying to save those divisions for the Russians will help. (In theory anyway).

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 23
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 6:46:26 AM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's accounted for it to the extent that Soviet vehicle production isn't amazing.

My sense is the problem here is one of repair and attrition and replacements not keeping up with trucks lost due to attrition and breakdowns. So the pool of available trucks isn't growing much or at all past 1942. Even the big ramp up in lend lease deliveries from 43 on isn't enough to overcome the breakdowns.


I think that's actually the issue.

I'm in spring of '43 now in one of my AI games as the soviet.

I have about 70k trucks in the pool.
That number has been essentially static for the last 6 months, despite getting about 3000 new trucks a week from lend-lease.

Attitional burn rate seems too high.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 24
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 1:32:04 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's accounted for it to the extent that Soviet vehicle production isn't amazing.

My sense is the problem here is one of repair and attrition and replacements not keeping up with trucks lost due to attrition and breakdowns. So the pool of available trucks isn't growing much or at all past 1942. Even the big ramp up in lend lease deliveries from 43 on isn't enough to overcome the breakdowns.


I think that's actually the issue.

I'm in spring of '43 now in one of my AI games as the soviet.

I have about 70k trucks in the pool.
That number has been essentially static for the last 6 months, despite getting about 3000 new trucks a week from lend-lease.

Attitional burn rate seems too high.


Trucks don't just go to the pool. Look at the Production Report which shows both vehicles in pool (identical with upper right corner display) and vehicles in units. By observation, when your pool drops below 50% of need, vehicles are no longer added to units in order to maintain a minimum supply capability if possible. When that happens and then your truck production begins to catch up on losses, the pool will remain at 50% for some time (try the rest of the war ) while depleted units get some truck reinforcements.

(in reply to pat.casey)
Post #: 25
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 6:14:58 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		IIRC, the Axis had alot more trouble keeping their trucks serviceable than the Allies did, for a number of reasons.

Many Axis trucks like the Opel Blitz that Klydon mentioned were not good off-road vehicles. The Germans also had trucks from many countries and manufacturers, making parts and repair difficult. These included French, Belgian, Dutch, Polish, Czeck, Italian, etc. etc. Lots of different models! Not to mention a longer logistical distance, and reliance on trucks vs. Railways.

Soviets, on the other hand, had trucks that were better-suited to the terrain, and/or US Lend Lease. US Trucks were more mechanically reliable than any others, and also were produced in large numbers, making parts more standard and easier to manage.

Not sure this is modelled, but I bet the Axis suffered far worse Truck attrition than the Soviets did. That could explain why the Axis has plenty of trucks while the Soviets struggle in that category.

_____________________________


(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 26
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 5/31/2011 6:19:57 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		70% of German trucks were broken down by December 41. But I do not know how their truck readiness rates fared after that.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 27
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 6/1/2011 9:22:01 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee
I have the following for production of trucks and buses in the SU.

1940 - 139879
1941 - 118704
1942 - 32409
1943 - 46720
1944 - 55167
1945 - 69662

Table C.1., Accounting for War, Mark Harrison. Sourced from the Soviet figures.

I guess the definition of 'military trucks and lorries' is going to explain the difference in numbers (as opposed to the Soviets building a lot of buses ;) ) though the Soviet figures are closer as a definition match to the USSBS figures for Grossreich German truck production of 409458 from January 1940 through end of February 1945. (I can't get the figure of 345914 to work for the USSBS' figures - it seems to be c.30k too high even when assuming 'military trucks' means trucks allocated to military over civilian uses).


Sorry I should have been more careful when looking at the chart. The chart only lists 1942 - 1945 production for the SU, here are the numbers:

1942: 30,400
1943: 45,600
1944: 52,600
1945: 68,500

The German production listed is for 1939-1945 so there is a difference in the number of years covered. I had only glanced at the totals column and should have looked closer sorry about that. Here's the numbers for Germany:

1939: 32,558
1940: 53,348
1941: 51,085
1942: 58,049
1943: 74,181
1944: 67,375
1945: 9,318

So if we only total up the years covered for the SU (42-45), the axis only built 208,923 Trucks/Lorries in the same time frame as the SU's 197,100. So baring some proof of huge numbers of captured trucks used from France and other western conquests, it now appears to me that the SU had a similar truck pool to the axis, though probably a bit smaller overall.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 6/1/2011 9:24:00 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 28
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 6/1/2011 9:36:12 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey
Based on that I'd naively expect the soviet truck park to outnumber the axis truck park,


No numbers are given for Italy by month in my source, but total war production is 83,000. I assume that's only for production prior to Italy’s surrender, but I'm not 100% sure due to the fact there are no monthly figures given.

No numbers at all are given for the other axis minors but it's probably safe to assume they produced about 50k total if you combine all of their production together. If you then factor in all the captured motor pools of France and the low countries, I think it's safe to assume Germany and Russia were probably about even, though Germany’s pool was probably larger for most of the war since lend lease only went into high gear in the last few years of the war.

So I now agree with the premise that the late war truck pools are too small for the SU.

Jim


_____________________________


(in reply to pat.casey)
Post #: 29
RE: Sovet Truck Park - 6/1/2011 10:02:29 AM   
Rafo35

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 2/22/2011
Status: offline
quote:

This was with a roughly historical size mobile force. (36-40 tank/mech corps is about the historical maximum, with a 2:1 ratio between tank and mech corps.)


If I remember correctly, the historical mechanized soviet forces peaked at 26 tank/mech corps. So that's 33% less.

It could be that part of the "pb" is because the players will have the natural tendancy to build significantly more tank/mechanized corps, because of the huge tank production and the fact that a tank brigade are useless (pb here is stacking : 1 tank brigade take 1/3 of a stack, same as a reinforced mechanized corps).

Note that the German army lost a huge part of its mobility advantage in 41. It showed in 42 : they withdrew of a lot of vehicules in AGN and AGC to reequipped AGS ... and then most unit weren't at full vehicule TOE and the logitics broke more than once for 6th army and even more for PzA 1. But after that it was partly offset by the fact that the supply lines were getting shorter and shorter ... On the other hand, by then, it meant increasingly huges losses in heavy material in the infantry divisions.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Sovet Truck Park Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.750