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No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 12:00:02 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		It seems that if I order my unit to move (i.e engage-move) it never shoots on the same turn. Many times I can see a tank stop and not shoot even if there are enemies right infront of it in plain sight. I have to wait for the next turn to give it order to shoot.

Is there a somkind of long delay after move which stops the unit from shooting or is it just so that unit cant move and shoot on the same turn?

Im just used to CM when the unit stops moving and sees enemies it will aim and pull trigger. In PCO though it seems the unit instead waits for the turn timer to run out before it shoots.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 5/31/2011 12:02:25 AM >

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Post #: 1
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 12:03:43 AM   
JMass


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From: Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

It seems that if I order my unit to move (i.e engage-move) it never shoots on the same turn even.


To have a unit fire in movement the correct order is Advance, engage-move doesn't permit it but it can be changed in engage-fire in the reaction phase.

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 12:12:30 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		I see this too and the tooltips state


<resource id="Engage_Move.tip" value="Normal Move with Fire">
</resource>
<resource id="Engage_Hold.tip"
value="No Move with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Engage_Facing.tip"
value="Face Change with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Engage_Target.tip"
value="No Move with Individually Targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Defend_Stay.tip"
value="No Move with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Defend_Move.tip"
value="Slow Move with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>

I see that it says Fire as opposed to other orders that say Auto-targeted fire.

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 12:17:15 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Manual

Engage
The platoon will target any enemy unit and/or move freely; they will have firing opportunities
during each phase. You can select the weapon and, if applicable, even choose the ammo type
to fire if you’re targeting an enemy unit manually. Otherwise, if you select Engage and Target,
the unit will automatically choose the best possible weapon and ammunition for the target
you select. Engage is the only order that allows you to manually specify a target for each unit.
Overall, Engage is the most tactically flexible platoon order.
Engage > Move
A Move during an Engage order proceeds at a normal speed over both phases if the unit does
not fire. When the move sub-order is selected, a blue line will be displayed; move the line to
where you want the unit to move and click to set the destination. A number will be displayed
next to the cursor as you move it around, indicating the distance in meters to that spot. Text will
be displayed next to the distance, indicating the terrain type in the location under the cursor.

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 12:42:24 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
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From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JMass


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

It seems that if I order my unit to move (i.e engage-move) it never shoots on the same turn even.


To have a unit fire in movement the correct order is Advance, engage-move doesn't permit it but it can be changed in engage-fire in the reaction phase.

Advance is to slow in many cases. And it doesnt make any sense if i.e unit moves for say 10 seconds and then waits 50 seconds before firing. One of the main reasons i switched to 40 second turns was to shorten that artificial delay.

Currently Im back to 60 seconds and its just so silly to see units just sit there taking hits and not shooting back. What possible real life reason would they have for not shooting back? For gameplay purposes its no fun at all. You can easily loose a tank or two in 50 seconds.

<resource id="Engage_Move.tip" value="Normal Move with Fire">
</resource>

Can I modify the xml files so that engage-move has autotargeted fire like the rest of the commands? That would remove the delay?

In the meanwhile I try using that advance again. I gave it up earlier because the units seemed to move too slowly.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 5/31/2011 12:49:57 AM >

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to JMass)
Post #: 5
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 12:49:37 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		No you cannot modify that it is in the code. However I wonder if it is working properly. A tank on Engage>Move shouldn't stop to shoot but should shoot at an opportunity while moving. I wonder if it relates to SOP and if the tank will only take good shots, not poor?

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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Post #: 6
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 12:52:43 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
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From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

No you cannot modify that it is in the code. However I wonder if it is working properly. A tank on Engage>Move shouldn't stop to shoot but should shoot at an opportunity while moving. I wonder if it relates to SOP and if the tank will only take good shots, not poor?

I would be happy if it would shoot after completing its move order. But if its suppese to shoot while moving then thats even better allthough the fire must be somwhat inaccurate.

Currently though the tanks dont even move their main guns on engage-move. They dont react to enemies at all in anyway until the next turn.

I have sop on and all units have it on normal. Thats actually what I was going to test next. If turning it off would make units shoot on engage-move.

Ill do som tests.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 5/31/2011 12:54:31 AM >

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 7
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 12:53:49 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Or with it on set a platoon to aggressive to see if they will take poor shots?

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 8
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 1:02:50 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		One question. Do I have to manually give new targets to units when they are on engage-move or can they shoot at new targets automatically?

>I see that it says Fire as opposed to other orders that say Auto-targeted fire.




_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 9
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 1:05:48 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		I think they should shoot automatically while moving. Once they complete their movement they revert to Engage>Stay and should auto target. You can't target during the playback.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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Post #: 10
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 1:38:56 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Another thought, just because you see the enemy doesn't mean your tank can see it. If the enemy is stationary it can see your tank better than the reverse. So if an enemy targets your tank, and your tank doesn't fire, it may be that your tank doesn't see where the fire is coming from.
By the time the playback ends and you check LOS, things may have changed. This will be more pronounced if your tank is buttoned up.

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 3:44:48 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Yes I was wondering why 1 second I see eneamy then dont.I still cant figure out how to move individuel vehicles/inf sections.I always have to click co and they always move as a group.

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 3:48:13 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		You see the enemy then one of you moves or ducks down and then you lose sight.

You order the platoon CO to move and the sub squads follow along. That is how platoons are supposed to work. But after you give the CO the order you can click a sub squad and reposition that order or possibly cancel it depending on the order.

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 12:50:22 PM   
henri51


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Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Yes I was wondering why 1 second I see enemy then dont.I still cant figure out how to move individuel vehicles/inf sections.I always have to click co and they always move as a group.


It is important to understand that after you give the commander orders, you can give sub-units new orders, but only among the set of sub-orders to that order. So for example if you give the commander the order to engage-move, you can give one of its sub-units the order to target an enemy unit and it will shoot instead of moving. But if you give the commander the order to advance, unless I remember wrong, you cannot give a sub-unit the order to target. That is why when I want a sub-unit to cover the advance by suppressing an enemy, I always give the commander the engage order.

Henri

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 1:28:23 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
One question. Do I have to manually give new targets to units when they are on engage-move or can they shoot at new targets automatically?
>I see that it says Fire as opposed to other orders that say Auto-targeted fire.

I don't think units fire on the move when given engage-move. If they move they won't fire. When they finish moving they will auto fire. Or, units are set to engage-hold will auto fire if no target is given. Now, defend, withdraw and advance will fire on the move for sure.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 5/31/2011 1:30:11 PM >

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 1:28:55 PM   
Yoozername

 

Posts: 1121
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps a matrix of the orders and the effects can be compiled?  I usually just use defend and engage and withdrawl most of the time.  I would like a revamp of the whole system but I would not want to toss junior out with the bathwater.

I do like the 'platoon-centric' system as it constrains the human player to be more realistic.  Games that allow individual tanks to go off on free-wheeling joy rides, and the resulting borg-happy gameplay that results, seem to spoil the wargaming community. 


(in reply to henri51)
Post #: 16
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 1:32:55 PM   
Mobius


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From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I do like the 'platoon-centric' system as it constrains the human player to be more realistic.  Games that allow individual tanks to go off on free-wheeling joy rides, and the resulting borg-happy gameplay that results, seem to spoil the wargaming community. 
I'd like the game have the option for both ways. C2 platoon orders mode or a sandbox mode to move everything every which way.


< Message edited by Mobius -- 5/31/2011 1:34:46 PM >

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 3:24:11 PM   
Smertin

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

It seems that if I order my unit to move (i.e engage-move) it never shoots on the same turn. Many times I can see a tank stop and not shoot even if there are enemies right infront of it in plain sight. I have to wait for the next turn to give it order to shoot.

Is there a somkind of long delay after move which stops the unit from shooting or is it just so that unit cant move and shoot on the same turn?

Im just used to CM when the unit stops moving and sees enemies it will aim and pull trigger. In PCO though it seems the unit instead waits for the turn timer to run out before it shoots.


I have had the same problem...nearly stopped my playing of the game because i was so frustrated. My tanks would not fire back even in clear terrain while facing a armoured recon car firing at them and eventually knocking them out. I was using the engage command if that helps.

(in reply to Zakhal)
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 3:39:26 PM   
JMass


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From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smertin
I have had the same problem...nearly stopped my playing of the game because i was so frustrated. My tanks would not fire back even in clear terrain while facing a armoured recon car firing at them and eventually knocking them out. I was using the engage command if that helps.


No need to be frustrated, Engage-move is dangerous when you are near to contact the enemy, better to set Advance, it is slower but safer. Here you are fighting the enemy, not the clock, if you need to move quickly but safer set the Path to Fastest or to Cover and the SOP to Cautious.

_____________________________

"Klotzen, nicht Kleckern!"Generaloberst Heinz Wilhelm Guderian

My boardgames collection: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/JMass?own=1&subtype=boardgame&ff=1

(in reply to Smertin)
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 4:05:51 PM   
gijas17


Posts: 199
Joined: 8/12/2006
From: due north
Status: offline 		Lol, this game has always been about a game of Cat & Mouse but it seems after playing the previous titles that Ostfront has some sort of delay in reaction times that I did not see in PCWS or PCK but Im testing the new 60 second rounds thing and SOP turned "off" though sometimes I wish I had it on "cowards"! Basically, line of sight is what you need to check every now and then to make sure your units can see the enemy when you see them appear out of no where just like in CM games. The problem I run into is when giving a "Advance" order I often have to stop the tank and engage manually. If my tank were not able to see the enemy's tank or men why can I target them in the orders phase? I have even proceeded to the next turn by not taking over manually and they just kept right on going sometimes turning the turret to the enemies direction but did not fire. Like I said some sort of delay maybe related to the new 60 second turns or Line of Sight?

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- Adolf Hitler


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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 5:33:23 PM   
Smertin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JMass

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smertin
I have had the same problem...nearly stopped my playing of the game because i was so frustrated. My tanks would not fire back even in clear terrain while facing a armoured recon car firing at them and eventually knocking them out. I was using the engage command if that helps.


No need to be frustrated, Engage-move is dangerous when you are near to contact the enemy, better to set Advance, it is slower but safer. Here you are fighting the enemy, not the clock, if you need to move quickly but safer set the Path to Fastest or to Cover and the SOP to Cautious.


I have tried Advance and yes that is better thanks...just not as flexible as Engage...but much happier with the results.

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 7:34:41 PM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		This is a perfect example of learning to use PCO effectively. I didn't play the older games, so learning all the little (big if you want to not die) features is tough at times.
There is lots of commands to tweak what your forces do or don't do. It's a great option to have, but a pretty good sized learning curve for us first time user.
The "Red Hoard" is kickin' my a lot 

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To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




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Post #: 22
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 7:42:02 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		Well I tested it and it sure seems that the tanks are waiting for the next turn until they shoot.

I moved (engage-move) my t34 to within 30m of enemy unpinned infantry that it could see all the time. It moved and then stopped (engage-hold). It didnt shoot at the enemy. Instead it just waited. Then after a while the turn ended.

Then I clicked next turn and the tanks gun immedialty turned and it started shooting (attached picture).

Its obvious that the tank was waiting for next turn until shooting. Could this have somthing to do with russian order delay? If not then what delay is it?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 5/31/2011 7:50:17 PM >

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to Smertin)
Post #: 23
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 5/31/2011 8:08:20 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		I tested this a long long time ago. In hill 226 is sent some tanks up the left side of the map to take a dugin Pak38 on the hill from behind. Just before it would be in sight a tried different orders to creep up over a rise on the PaK. Saving the game I tried Advance, rush, defend and engage. I had the best luck with Defend and Advance as the tanks fired more often and quicker than the other orders.

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 6/1/2011 2:34:19 AM   
Mad Russian


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From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richie61

This is a perfect example of learning to use PCO effectively. I didn't play the older games, so learning all the little (big if you want to not die) features is tough at times.
There is lots of commands to tweak what your forces do or don't do. It's a great option to have, but a pretty good sized learning curve for us first time user.
The "Red Hoard" is kickin' my a lot 


Two words of advice for you:

GO SLOW.

This is not CMBB. If you rush forward in PCO there will be dead infantry and smoke plumes rising to the sky.

PCO plays SLOWER.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Richie61)
Post #: 25
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 6/1/2011 2:43:24 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		And there is no turn limit in most scenarios to force you into rushing. And I still have no patience.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 26
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 6/1/2011 3:38:32 AM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
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From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richie61

This is a perfect example of learning to use PCO effectively. I didn't play the older games, so learning all the little (big if you want to not die) features is tough at times.
There is lots of commands to tweak what your forces do or don't do. It's a great option to have, but a pretty good sized learning curve for us first time user.
The "Red Hoard" is kickin' my a lot 


Two words of advice for you:

GO SLOW.

This is not CMBB. If you rush forward in PCO there will be dead infantry and smoke plumes rising to the sky.

PCO plays SLOWER.

Good Hunting.

MR


Oh, I am learning that one fast. I am so used to having time limits and such in war games, but this is more like
real fighting. I send a lot of time setting up my forces and slowly probing the enemy looking for them or a soft
spot in their lines.

I have learned really quick that the AI does a great job of exploiting my weaknesses. If I over extend my forces while pushing an attack, they reach out and touch me in a bad way

Thanks again for all the tips I need them!

RE61

_____________________________

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




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Post #: 27
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 1/17/2012 7:38:25 PM   
sandman2575


Posts: 310
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Well I tested it and it sure seems that the tanks are waiting for the next turn until they shoot.

I moved (engage-move) my t34 to within 30m of enemy unpinned infantry that it could see all the time. It moved and then stopped (engage-hold). It didnt shoot at the enemy. Instead it just waited. Then after a while the turn ended.

Then I clicked next turn and the tanks gun immedialty turned and it started shooting (attached picture).

Its obvious that the tank was waiting for next turn until shooting. Could this have somthing to do with russian order delay? If not then what delay is it?


sorry to resurrect an old post -- i'm getting back into Panzer Command and going through the threads to pick up tips.

After reading this thread, I no longer see what the benefit of Engage>Move is. If it does not allow for auto-fire, as Zakhal's experience shows, then it just seems a plain "Move" order with no "engage" to speak of. If that is the case, why would you ever use Engage>Move? It sounds like Engage>Move is really only useful to get from point A to point B. In that case, why not just use "Rush", which also has no 'engage' auto-fire? Or, if you know enemies are in the vicinity -- and really, isn't this 95% of the time? -- shouldn't you always use "Advance"?

I've been playing on the 60-second 'no reaction' turns (and thanks Mad Russian for pushing for this option!). Perhaps Engage>Move is giving different results in 40:40 turn vs. straight 60 turn?

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 28
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 1/17/2012 8:06:10 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		I do hope that you try the 40:40 a few times after you become comfy with the game.

With the current beta, units with Engage>Move will not fire on the move and if they reach the end of movement before the end of the phase, they don't seem to do anything.

I have been using Engage>Move only to travel distances in areas that I think are trouble free. I use advance most of the time. However, advance does not allow you to change a sub unit to target something. Usually the sub unit does a good job of auto targeting after I press play. Engage>Hold for the CO will allow the subs to be ordered to move or target.

Rush and charge will tire out a squad and it takes a while to recover. They also seem to rout easier. It can be useful for bringing up reserve platoons into hot spots.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to sandman2575)
Post #: 29
RE: No moving and shooting on same turn? - 1/17/2012 8:37:13 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		For anyone having targeting issues the 40:40 turn is the best option. It allows you to be able to stop a unit, withdraw with a unit or target a unit in the middle of a full 80 second turn sequence. That's better than what I was getting with the 60 second turns and why I went back to them after being the one that requested a 60 second turn.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 30
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