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Bulgaria surrender? - 6/9/2011 10:54:46 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		Is Bulgarian surrender working as designed?

In my 43 game I have supplied Soviet units adjacent to BLG border but I see no signs of them surrendering. Country surrenders are not reported anywhere, by the way. For Finns and Rumanians it's obvious from other game events, like counters disappearing and changing color, or number of Rumanians in Axis OOB going down to 0

Bulgaria and Yugoslavia are abstracted, though, they are never represented in OOB, and are not enterable, either before or after surrenred, so I simply have no idea whether they surrendered or not. Hex popup over Bulgarian hexes says "Axis control".

Why is that important?

Well because official rules for Soviet victory seem rather demanding, ie 39 or less VPs under Axis control. That, in itself, seems pretty demanding, but if there is no way to convert Yugo-Bulgarian Axis controled locations into something neutral or Soviet controlled, I will probably never get Axis as low as 39!

Comments? Did anyone else got this far vs human in PBEM?
Post #: 1
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/9/2011 11:15:38 PM   
Belphegor


Posts: 2209
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		I achieved a Major victory as Soviets in a 43-45 game. Pretty much had to take every city including berlin. It was tough.

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Post #: 2
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/9/2011 11:25:46 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		What happened with Bulgaria in your game? How did you notice when (and if) they surrendered? When were the Bulgarian VPs subtracted from Axis total?

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Post #: 3
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/9/2011 11:29:10 PM   
Belphegor


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Status: offline 		Definitely hard to tell when they surrendered. I assumed they surrendered when I placed an in supply combat unit at their border. I wasn't watching VP at that stage so can't tell you if I saw any reduction in the German VP total.

As my opponent had some remnant combat troops down there and I had the soviet/rumanian armies I garrisoned that border to a certain extent. Certainly along rail lines. He made one sortie from Bulgaria/Yugoslavia. I had enough troops that I didn't need them on the front line.


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Post #: 4
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 3:31:28 AM   
Mynok


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If it's our game, Oleg, Bulgaria has surrendered. It surrendered the same turn Rumania did. Not sure what it looks like from your end but from mine, it is browned out in "Soviet control" colors and cannot be moved into. This appears to be working according to the rules.



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Post #: 5
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 4:49:24 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		Yes it's our game Mynok. It may be it surrendered, but I still think it's kinda funky. The whole area is still "Axis controlled" (that's how I see it) and I can't enter into the country to take control of the territory. So, the whole country will remain "Axis controlled" until..... until the end??

It's important because Yugo and Bulgaria carry significant amount of VPs in their cities, towns and of course country capitals. With those points under "Axis control" it will be impossible to reduce Axis to 39 VPs, as required to win by scenario rules.

Mynok do you see Bulgaria hexes as Axis controlled? Last time I checked you had 120 VPs, at least 20-30 of them are in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria.... I also noticed some hexes flash near Bulgaria when saving my last turn, so it may well be something changed in this very last turn I sent you....

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Post #: 6
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 4:50:59 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		Ah so from your side it's "Soviet controlled"?

It's either a very strange situation, or it became Sov contolled in the very last turn I sent you. I'll check when the turn gets back to me....

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Post #: 7
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 5:59:00 AM   
Mynok


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Status: offline 		I suspect it is 'neither controlled'. It just shows as enemy controlled for both of us since it is off limits to both of us.

Have to check the VP thing. Haven't done that yet. Been worried about other issues.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 6/10/2011 6:00:49 AM >

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RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 6:25:06 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		It's excluded from both sides.

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Post #: 9
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 6:06:34 PM   
Mynok


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I'm curious about something else Oleg.....did the Rumanian rail net become disrepaired in all the hexes that converted to your control?


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Post #: 10
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 6:16:49 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		Yes, Rumanian rail is red (useless) for me until I repair it, if that's what you mean.


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Post #: 11
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 7:13:30 PM   
Neal_MLC

 

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Status: offline 		Why can German units retreat due to combat into Bulgaria?

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RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 7:18:32 PM   
Flaviusx


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From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The game allows retreats into Bulgaria for lack of a better route available; personally, I think this is somewhat problematic. They ought to instead rout back to German lines proper, or simply surrender if that's too far away.

German units in Bulgaria can't go anywhere in Bulgaria, mind you. The rest of the country is still excluded to them, and they'll have to somehow fight their way back to friendly Axis lines. But it's annoying for the Soviet, who has to either leave units behind to watch these guys, or attack them across the notional border.

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Post #: 13
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 7:31:48 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Now that we're here it's probably a good moment for to mention my pet late war peeve in what is otherwise extremely detailed game, when it comes to minor countries. I think all minor countries, their participation, surrender rules etc are modelled very well, except for Yugoslavia.

I understand and support the decision to simplify what was very complex military situation in the Balkans (it's probably worth of a game on its own).

However, Yugoslavia should not be neutral, closed area UNTIL Belgrade is taken. Currently Yugoslav area goes out of the game as soon as Soviets move adjacent to Yugo border. In reality, Soviets fought and died in the area north of Danube, and for Belgrade city proper, also for the Danube crossing near the city of Batina. I visited monuments for Soviet liberators of Belgrade and huge Soviet military cemetery, and I feel that effort should be included in this supremely detailed game.

So, if it's not that hard, I suggest changing Yugo rules so that Yugoslavia turns into exclusion zone not with the first Soviet unit adjacent to the border, but only after Belgrade is taken.


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Post #: 14
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 7:42:22 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Now that we're here it's probably a good moment for to mention my pet late war peeve in what is otherwise extremely detailed game, when it comes to minor countries. I think all minor countries, their participation, surrender rules etc are modelled very well, except for Yugoslavia.

I understand and support the decision to simplify what was very complex military situation in the Balkans (it's probably worth of a game on its own).

However, Yugoslavia should not be neutral, closed area UNTIL Belgrade is taken. Currently Yugoslav area goes out of the game as soon as Soviets move adjacent to Yugo border. In reality, Soviets fought and died in the area north of Danube, and for Belgrade city proper, also for the Danube crossing near the city of Batina. I visited monuments for Soviet liberators of Belgrade and huge Soviet military cemetery, and I feel that effort should be included in this supremely detailed game.

So, if it's not that hard, I suggest changing Yugo rules so that Yugoslavia turns into exclusion zone not with the first Soviet unit adjacent to the border, but only after Belgrade is taken.


Oleg, as you know I was involved with WitE development for long long time...

One of the very first questions I asked when I joined the WitE ALPHA (and after I helped fixing few map / naming mistakes in the area) was about former Yugoslavia - the answer was (and still is) that the inability of simulating complex partisan operations prevented Yugoslavia to be active area - thus the Yugoslavia map area is what it is...

I think we can live with it until comprehensive "War in the the Europe" is done...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 15
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 7:54:02 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		I am OK with Yugoslav Partisan operations not being in the game.

I am STRICTLY talking about direct Soviet involvement, it was Tolbukhin's IIRC 4th Ukrainian front that directly attacked and liberated Belgrade, and crossed over Danube in Batina. After that, Soviet weren't inloved in Yugoslav military matters and it would be OK to "close" the Yugoslav area, but only AFTER that happens, not before ie as soon as the first units get adjacent to Yugo border.

In other words, small part of Yugoslavia north of Danube and Drava (there are exactly 5 hexes north of Drava), and including Belgrade, should be "open" for Soviet actions (and of course German defence as well).

It would not matter in the Big Picture, but Soviets fought and died for Belgrade and Batina, and a game as detailed as this should recognise that and include this for historic "chrome". Belgrade was big operation in itself. Batina was part of the bigger Budapest offensive, so a part of bigger picture for 3rd and 4th Ukrainian front(s).

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Post #: 16
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 8:27:21 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

It would not matter in the Big Picture, but Soviets fought and died for Belgrade and Batina, and a game as detailed as this should recognise that and include this for historic "chrome". Belgrade was big operation in itself. Batina was part of the bigger Budapest offensive, so a part of bigger picture for 3rd and 4th Ukrainian front(s).


Yes, they day is quite short on this planet - just 24 hours :(

Hopefully it will get addressed at some point. May be even on more accurate map of Balkans :)

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Post #: 17
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 8:29:11 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		Pavel I hear the day is longer on some other planets, how about we send you and couple PCs you need for coding there?

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Post #: 18
RE: Bulgaria surrender? - 6/10/2011 8:36:38 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

Pavel I hear the day is longer on some other planets, how about we send you and couple PCs you need for coding there?


Do they serve a cold dark beer there?

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Post #: 19
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