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RE: Why are captured resources not being used?

 
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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 5/13/2011 8:31:06 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

Posts: 497
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline 		On points 1) and 2), I believe either remove the game feature for captured stocks (resources, oil, fuel, etc) or fix the bug in the game that is not allowing the feature to work properly. I think it's irresponsible for nothing to be done. I believe the WitE team is looking into this. Will give them the benefit of the doubt. As a consumer I'm not very tolerant when products don't perform as expected. Sorry, just been burned in the past too many times, as we all have. So forgive my approach on this subject.

I do believe the WitE team is a lot more respectful of their consumers, so I have confidence something will be done to address this issue.

It would be nice to hear some *work in progress* status from a dev or tester on this.. when available.

Thanks

< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 5/13/2011 8:32:07 PM >

(in reply to squatter)
Post #: 31
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 5/13/2011 11:33:35 PM   
Mynok


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Oil is not fuel.


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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 5/14/2011 12:02:57 AM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.



And who is that pearl of wisdom designed for?

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 5/14/2011 12:30:24 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.


Chemically speaking, everything is fuel ;)

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Post #: 34
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/7/2011 7:00:32 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

Posts: 497
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline 		Well I think this got swept under the rug? The latest patch does not fix this issue. I'm very annoyed that my hard work to capture resource centers and stocks of resources/supplies are not being used during my Axis production. What is the point? I'm still seeing issues with falling short of resources and supplies as documented in my initial post screen shot a month ago.

I would be very pleased if somebody with some knowledge on the progress on this bug would respond. Most players (99.9%) don't even know what is going on here, so the bug has been somewhat undiscovered. If the developers don't think it's a bug, then please explain to me why the Axis would have these shortages in 42 when they've capture many resource centers (on rail net and no damage) as well as HUGE stockpiles of resources and supplies on rail net.


Thanks!


< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 6/7/2011 7:02:14 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/7/2011 9:09:45 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		According to the manual, captured material and resources are transferred to the HQ of the unit that captured them, but captured oil and manufacturing centers do not produce for the Germans. This does not exclude the possibility that there is a bug, but I DO get the messages that I captured so and so amount of supplies and oil - usually when I kill a HQ.

Henri

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Post #: 36
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/7/2011 9:49:01 PM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I think he means captured resource centers not being used.  Which may be WAD.

However captured resources should be used - historically the Germans did, although not at any particulalry high efficiency (I think the highest efficiency they got was 50%, probably often less).  And I think they would have done what they could to get oil out of the Caucuses and back to a refinery if they could have (they historically didn't really have a chance).  They didn't have enough oil and were somewhat desperate for more.

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/8/2011 4:05:16 AM   
kirkgregerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.




Fine. So are you now going to tell me resources are not resources? Or maybe supplies are not supplies?


Seriously, this still tells me absolutely nothing and further strengthens my view nobody really knows what goes on in that Axis prod phase, except maybe Gary.

< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 6/8/2011 4:06:10 AM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/8/2011 4:06:52 AM   
kirkgregerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

According to the manual, captured material and resources are transferred to the HQ of the unit that captured them, but captured oil and manufacturing centers do not produce for the Germans. This does not exclude the possibility that there is a bug, but I DO get the messages that I captured so and so amount of supplies and oil - usually when I kill a HQ.

Henri



Yeah, well I can tell you first hand this is not working as designed. That's why I posted this a month ago.

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Post #: 39
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/8/2011 5:13:57 AM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.



And who is that pearl of wisdom designed for?


For any fool who thinks that oil doesn't need to be massively refined to become fuel that can be used for anything except possibly ships. Yeah, those were real common in the Wehrmacht.

The Germans had almost zero capacity to get oil to refineries and not enough refineries to make good use of anything they actually brought.

Resources? The Germans were maxed out even throughout 42 just trying to get supplies to the front. And now they are supposed to be toting massive amounts of raw materials back to Germany as well? LMAO!


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Post #: 40
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/8/2011 6:21:49 AM   
cpt flam


Posts: 2352
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From: caen - France
Status: offline 		to lessen your anger
can tell you that soviet suffer same thing even in 41-42

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/8/2011 7:09:48 AM   
kirkgregerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.



And who is that pearl of wisdom designed for?


For any fool who thinks that oil doesn't need to be massively refined to become fuel that can be used for anything except possibly ships. Yeah, those were real common in the Wehrmacht.

The Germans had almost zero capacity to get oil to refineries and not enough refineries to make good use of anything they actually brought.

Resources? The Germans were maxed out even throughout 42 just trying to get supplies to the front. And now they are supposed to be toting massive amounts of raw materials back to Germany as well? LMAO!




Still thinking you're missing the point. I know all about what it takes to get oil refined. There's something fishy about how captured stocks and resource locations are being handled. If it's WAD, so be it. Just would like to know what is going on. Early on in this thread, something was identified as an issue by a tester and was supposed to be fixed. So I thought?

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Post #: 42
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/8/2011 2:42:05 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.



Hmmmm. Did not the German tanks run on diesel? Excuse my ignorance, but I had the impression that Diesel engines could run on crude oil (not to mention corn oil and mayonnaise...).

Henri

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Post #: 43
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/8/2011 4:06:01 PM   
pompack


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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.



Hmmmm. Did not the German tanks run on diesel? Excuse my ignorance, but I had the impression that Diesel engines could run on crude oil (not to mention corn oil and mayonnaise...).

Henri


henri
Diesels will run on LIGHT oil which is refined from crude. I am sure that there are some crudes that come out of the ground light enough to make it through the injecters, but the engine would probably not run for long before crudding up from all of the other constituents in the crude.

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 12:57:47 AM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		Came across this quote from the reference "Black Cross Red Star" and thought it was appropriate to the discussion.

"At the end of 1941, Germany's war industry found itself in a severe crisis, an ironic situation since the needs of the German economy had been one of Hitler's principal reasons for invading the USSR. Germany had indeed seized some of the most important industrial areas and mine regions of the USSR but had largely failed to benefit from the conquest since the bulk of the industrial base in these regions had been dismantled and evacuated east by the Soviets. Moreover, the German occupation authorities and businessmen who took charge of the mines shortsightedly devoted most of their time to looting rather than to business. The German authorities also largely failed to take advantage of the tens of millions of potential laborers in the occupied areas. In a critical report, the German armament Inspector for the Ukraine asked, 'If we shoot all the Jews, let the prisoners of war die, subject large parts of the population of major cities to famine, and let parts of the population in the countryside succumb to starvation - then one must ask: Who is going to uphold production here?'

Trey

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Post #: 45
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 3:06:29 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.



Hmmmm. Did not the German tanks run on diesel? Excuse my ignorance, but I had the impression that Diesel engines could run on crude oil (not to mention corn oil and mayonnaise...).

Henri


As the other poster said, light sweet crude, yes, but not that which comes from the Caucasus.

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Post #: 46
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 4:54:11 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I have been pondering the capturing of 'fuel' for a while now. I can only imagine it ('fuel') is not the same kind of fuel that the Panzers need. It must be something else. I don't know what. But if it were fuel that mech forces could use (like pulling up to a gas station) then surely the Soviet player would be allowed to destroy it before it fell in to the enemies hands. That would be a no brainer. When we overun a HQ we only get a small amount of fuel. The rest I assume has been destroyed. So I think its WAD. Stored City Fuel <> Panzer/ Fuel. But some clarification by the devs would help here and save some angst.

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 2:20:48 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.



Hmmmm. Did not the German tanks run on diesel? Excuse my ignorance, but I had the impression that Diesel engines could run on crude oil (not to mention corn oil and mayonnaise...).

Henri


As the other poster said, light sweet crude, yes, but not that which comes from the Caucasus.


Are you sure? The oil that arrives at Supsa is known as "Azeri Light".

Henri

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Post #: 48
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 2:44:45 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
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From: Southern California
Status: offline 		My understanding is the Germans actually did have quite a bit of spare refining capacity in Ploesti and it ran well below theoretical maximum for most of the war. (Which is why the USAAF air raid on Ploesti failed. It knocked out a bit over 30% of the refining capacity...and the refineries had been running at 70% before that.)

The real problem was transporting the oil to the refineries.



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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 7:41:39 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
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From: Coruscant
Status: offline 		I think most AFV's, circa WWII, had petrol engines.

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 8:26:08 PM   
Chris10


Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
Hmmmm. Did not the German tanks run on diesel? Excuse my ignorance, but I had the impression that Diesel engines could run on crude oil (not to mention corn oil and mayonnaise...).

Henri

German tanks and most other german military vehicles run on petrol in WWII which was an unbelivable stupid decision which made them pay dearly for it later in the war when fuel became rare.

Sowjet and US tanks where running on diesel

OT
In that regard its remarkable that between 41-45 the US delivered about 22.000 tanks/armoured vehicles, ca 2000 locomotives, over 18.000 airplanes to the USSR.
The bigger impact for maintaining the sowjet war ability however where coming from the delivery of about 500.000 wheel and chain vehicles (amog them 77.000 jeeps,150.000 15t lorrys and 200.000 25t lorrys) which practically enabled the russian was industry to keep up logistics. At the end of the war over 33% of all russian industrial logistics and motorized divisions where running on US trucks.
Furthermoe the US provided canned rations , uniforms and boots for the new russian divisions otherwise russia could not have formed that many military formations after the initial slap they got from the Wehrmacht.
Germany could not keep up with that production figures (until Summer 43 the german industry was not even focussed on concentrated war production) and no matter how many russian divisions they crushed and how many tanks the Tigers and Panthers knocked out since they appeared on the eastern battlefields...they simply kept coming. It was a massacre which is mirrored in the russian casualty figures....
To have a comparison. Right after Stalingrad when the russian armys attempted to cut off the Heeresgroup A in the Caucasus they outnumbered the Wehrmacht 7:1 on the southern front...however eventually the Wehrmacht was able to outmaneuver and outperform the russian divisions once again and after series of frenetic defensive battles against the russians once again a glorious german victory took place in Charkow beginning 43, the last in the east, practically destroying over 10 russian divisions and heavily depleting another 7 AFAIR



< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/9/2011 9:02:09 PM >

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 9:03:30 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

Posts: 497
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Status: offline 		Chris,

Sorry to correct you a bit, but the most widely used allied tank in the European theater, the Sherman, ran on gasoline and NOT diesel.

It is more a question of what type of engine that country could produce at mass to cover the needs.

The German industry had already a great experience with gasoline engines so Maybach ( the fabricator of the all German tank engines ) produced gasoline engines for ALL tanks even so the tiger and king tiger ( HL 230 TRM P45 700hp/3000rpm = tiger I )

In the UK they changed quickly a Rolls-Royce airplane engine ( the Merline used in the Lancaster ) to a tank engine nl. the Meteor

In America the Sherman tank was built with gasoline and also with diesel engines . The ones with diesel engines (M4A2) where used by the marine corps in the Pacific they used the same fuel as there boats . But at the European theater the Sherman's where almost all gasoline engines.

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html

let us not forget the USSR with the T 34 with his diesel engine a sturdy easy to maintain engine. The USSR with his great plains was better off with a diesel engine then a gasoline engine that had a greater consumption.

< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 6/9/2011 9:06:27 PM >

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 9:50:08 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Oil is not fuel.



Hmmmm. Did not the German tanks run on diesel? Excuse my ignorance, but I had the impression that Diesel engines could run on crude oil (not to mention corn oil and mayonnaise...).

Henri


As the other poster said, light sweet crude, yes, but not that which comes from the Caucasus.


Are you sure? The oil that arrives at Supsa is known as "Azeri Light".

Henri


Interesting....I'll see what I can find out.


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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 9:51:06 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

My understanding is the Germans actually did have quite a bit of spare refining capacity in Ploesti and it ran well below theoretical maximum for most of the war. (Which is why the USAAF air raid on Ploesti failed. It knocked out a bit over 30% of the refining capacity...and the refineries had been running at 70% before that.)


Really? Interesting....

quote:


The real problem was transporting the oil to the refineries.


Correct.

_____________________________

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 9:59:00 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

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quote:

The real problem was transporting the oil to the refineries.



Yes and since WitE already somewhat quantifies 'rail capacity', I like the suggestion to use 'unspent' rail capacity to move priority stocks back to Germany (i.e. oil, resources, etc.)


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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 10:20:58 PM   
Chris10


Posts: 114
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From: Germany,living in Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
In America the Sherman tank was built with gasoline and also with diesel engines . The ones with diesel engines (M4A2) where used by the marine corps in the Pacific they used the same fuel as there boats . But at the European theater the Sherman's where almost all gasoline engines.

Oh, sure...you right ...I forgot about that fact.

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Post #: 56
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/9/2011 11:55:20 PM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		The game has two types of fuel resource.

Oil = unrefined.

Fuel = refined.

The statement 'oil is not fuel' is so obvious as not to be worthy of making, unless you think your fellow posters are cretins.

The issue is that:

a. the game lets you capture already extracted oil resources (ie, barrels of crude), but will not let you transport those back for refining.

b. the game let you capture refined fuel stocks (ie barrels of petrol), but will not let you use them for your vehicles.

Why is this? Why is there no comment from the devs? If the Germans found 80 thousand barrels of oil when they captured Maikop, are we supposed to all agree that they would have left them there, as opposed to made every effort to transport them back for use?

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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/10/2011 3:29:13 AM   
Mynok


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I'm not going to call them cretins, but some were seeming to make that argument.

What were they going to transport them back with? They could barely supply their troops on the antiquated rail net.


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RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/10/2011 5:14:36 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
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From: Nashville TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I'm not going to call them cretins, but some were seeming to make that argument.

What were they going to transport them back with? They could barely supply their troops on the antiquated rail net.


In theory I agree with you that transporting unrefined fuel-oil is probably beyond the capability of the German economy to do in scale, but my agreement is based on the fact that unrefined fuel-oil would require tankers cars. Whatever tanker cars Germany had were no doubt carrying refined fuel, and you wouldn't have capability to transfer refined fuel from the heartland out to Maikop, clean the car, carry oil back, clean again.

Where I disagree is that the Germans were clearly carrying useful stuff back from the front line. I can pick at least 3 books in my library that show German soldiers stashing artillery shell casings and wicker or wood ammunition containers with captions that indicate these would be shipped back and re-used. The Germans made a point to transport back to the heartland what was useful. While oil may not be realistic to use, fuel is, and resources are too (even if realism dictate heavy rates of attrition between what is captured and what is used - it should be transported back and used).

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 59
RE: Why are captured resources not being used? - 6/10/2011 5:55:08 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline 		It's a capacity issue. All those things you specify are far easier to transport than millions of gallons of oil or tons of raw materials. The latter require heavy lift and solid rail foundations which just didn't exist.


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