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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 4:01:17 PM

BleedingOrange

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I would suggest that the factories not be able to be relocated until they were historically and only the amount that was moved. Then after the date they were evacuated you could move more if you still held the city. The problem I see is the Soviets get to play Stalin by ordering the troops to retreat and evacuate the factories much earlier then historically. This leads to them being able to save their troops and production instead of having to chose between buying time for the factories to be evacuated or saving the troops. This would allow the German player the chance to hurt the Soviets and give them a reason to play past 41. Right now with the forces the Soviets can have plus more production and ability to create more units, the +1 bonus and the Maginot lines of death, most German players just call it because the end is not in doubt. While the Soviet player gets to play Stalin and remove most of their mistakes the German player is not able do the same. He's not able to use the extra men from less losses to form units, he can't order the country to a war time economy, or change occupation policy to reduce partisons, etc.

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Post #: 31

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 4:05:02 PM

Scook_99

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I am agreeing on forts for two things, they are too easily built and thus used everywhere, and once build, losses skyrocket trying to get through the fort line. I keep wondering, why is digging in a stronger asset than spending 4AP to build fortifications? Built fortifications are a huge detriment, as entrenching occurs slower, and reduces stacking to two other units. I am hoping the new patch will adjust things a bit, but I do think the resources to make cement casements everywhere is too high.

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Post #: 32

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 4:39:43 PM

kvolk

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I think having limited time with the game and with reading several AARs that the issue is lose of fluidity after 1941 as most players for germans or soviets adopt a more conservative style because attacking becomes to costly if it isn't 100% effective. I think that if either players chooses to entrench heavily they should be subjected to more of a an encirclement chance then if they stay more flexible. If the staic unit makes this happen then the opportunity cost of attacking is lowered because of the potential gain. I have greatly enjoyed this game and will be playing it for years to come but if the fluidity of the early game is maintained into summer of 1943 while keeping the fidelity to the historical situation in place as far as man power, supplies, TOE, it would be that much better. Either way it is still the best war game I have ever played up to now. JMO.

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Post #: 33

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 4:47:16 PM

Klydon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
At the macro level, it's because only 2 things matter to the German (Leningrad and casualties).

At the micro level, the ease with which the Soviet can safeguard the casualty total through complete freedom of movement (which I don't want to take away and don't have a solution for) and fortification again steals the German player's hope by Turn 18.

I would add that destruction of as much Russian industry as possible is also on the German list of things to do in 1941.

On the macro level is where including "extra" things for capturing objectives (moral hit for the loss of Moscow for instance) would help the game out a lot. 1942 has its own issues. There is simply no incentive for the Germans to launch a 1942 style campaign. What are they going to do? Capture more territory? They won't destroy any more industry if the Russian player has half a brain. The only strategy that makes sense for the Germans in 1942 is to kill Russian units for the sake of killing them.

There are issues with fortifications and I wish I had some better solutions/suggestions. I think the level 1/2 fortifications are for the most part fine. I think it is far too easy to get level 3/4 forts on such a wide scale level with no additional cost. I could have a rifle brigade and as long as it is left alone, there is this nice level 4 fort for 3 rifle divisions to fall back to. Obviously the game staff thinks there is an issue as they have tweaked the rules a bit.

I have seen an admin cost suggested on the higher forts. That could work perhaps. Maybe something else is you need more than 1 unit to get a level 3/4 fort or better is the construction value of the hex has to be above a certain threshold so two brigades/regiments can build a level 3 fort while a division/corps can't. That would help with the Russian mass carpet fort building operation somewhat. If you want a city heavily fortified, that is fine, but it will take several units in the garrison to pull it off.

The more I think about it, I like the idea of having a construction threshold to get to level 3 and a higher level to get to level 4, etc. Even doing it for a level 2 fort may not be a bad idea. For maintenance, you need to keep at least half the level required to build or the fortifications start to go down. The further the difference the faster the fortifications decay. Probably double the requirement in mud.

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Post #: 34

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 5:06:03 PM

heliodorus04

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Aside from my original recommendation that forts be restricted to a hexside facing, I want to emphasize this other major detail (IMO, of course).

The problem doesn't start with level 3 forts.� It starts with level 2.
Either they build too fast, scale too well to multiple units, or offer too much protection, or some combination.

The reason that I feel hexside limitations on protection is the most important part is because it will encourage realistic flank protection for both sides.

The way linebacker works right now, you're encouraged to disperse your divisions over 30 to 40 mile frontages because you have complete ZOC into all 6 hexes around you, and that's all you need to prevent major encirclements.

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 6/13/2011 5:07:55 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 5:18:20 PM

kvolk

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Does the time it takes to build forts model well with real world accounts? I was thinking that the Soviets in 43 built up fomidable defenses in the Kursk salient but they had months to do that. With WitE having turns of one week does this take that time into account? My sense is it builds to fast but I haven't really paid attention to it.

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Post #: 36

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 5:18:44 PM

hfarrish

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I'm failing to see how "forts" are such a humongous problem right now, particularly in 41. The AARs currently on the board demonstrate the good German players can take Leningrad and in many cases Moscow in 41 without too much difficultly. The changes made earlier make level 3 and 4 forts much less likely except in cases where very substantial time is spent building them, which means there aren't going to be lines and lines of level 3 and 4 forts. If the Level 1 and 2 fort building is limited even more (and according to other suggestions on this board, factory evac and rail are further limited), the position of Soviet players will be totally untenable...which perhaps is the desired result.

As far as the 42 campaign, if the Soviet player preserves his army in 41 and doesn't launch a bunch of wildly ineffective, costly Spring attacks (a la Stalin), why shouldn't he have a much better chance of preventing large scale German gains? Case Blue would never have gotten as far as it did if the Soviets hadn't thrown away a substantial chunk of their forces during the spring.

I think the biggest issue to be addressed is the overpower of the Soviets in later years, where they gain the ability to hammer the Germans relentlessly across the entire front from 43 on without any seeming constraint on operations. Not only is this ahistorical, it takes the fun out of those years for both the Soviet and the German. Some of the changes in the recent patch do seem to work in the direction of addressing it, hopefully.

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 37

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 5:28:23 PM

gradenko2k

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
The only strategy that makes sense for the Germans in 1942 is to kill Russian units for the sake of killing them.

Wouldn't the AP cost of rebuilding surrendered/shattered units eventually be a bottle-neck for the Russian if the Germans kill off enough of them? It seems like it should be, if it isn't, given the production dichotomy of the 2 sides.

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Post #: 38

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 5:29:35 PM

herwin

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In OCS, level 1 forts can be constructed using locally available resources, but higher level forts require significant levels of engineering supply (4000 tons per level per hex at the WitE scale).

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Post #: 39

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 5:54:29 PM

heliodorus04

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
If the Level 1 and 2 fort building is limited even more (and according to other suggestions on this board, factory evac and rail are further limited), the position of Soviet players will be totally untenable...which perhaps is the desired result.

Can we bury this last sentence? I'm tired of it.

I've gone way the **** out of my way to explain that I understand the issues a player from either side faces in terms of fun, and that I'm looking for a fun game rather than a game that the Germans can win (at least in 1941/1942) even 20 percent of the time.

quote:

As far as the 42 campaign, if the Soviet player preserves his army in 41 and doesn't launch a bunch of wildly ineffective, costly Spring attacks (a la Stalin), why shouldn't he have a much better chance of preventing large scale German gains? Case Blue would never have gotten as far as it did if the Soviets hadn't thrown away a substantial chunk of their forces during the spring.

I agree with this in concept.
In practice, it's SO easy for the Soviets to preserve his force that a 1942 summer offensive is futile by a German player, and thus, there is no point in playing the German side. The German becomes an 18-turn sparring partner, with the main event being 1942/1943 trouncing by the heavyweight Soviet player. Not fun. I'm not playing that game again, as EITHER side.

The Soviet can lose Leningrad and Moscow and still know that 1942 will see the crescendo of his unstoppable power.

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Post #: 40

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 6:42:20 PM

Klydon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
The only strategy that makes sense for the Germans in 1942 is to kill Russian units for the sake of killing them.

Wouldn't the AP cost of rebuilding surrendered/shattered units eventually be a bottle-neck for the Russian if the Germans kill off enough of them? It seems like it should be, if it isn't, given the production dichotomy of the 2 sides.

In my view, the 42 campaign for the Germans is not about territory because the game gives nothing beyond perhaps reducing some pop centers/resources because the industry should be gone. 42 is all about killing as many Russian units as possible; not because the Russians don't have the manpower/industry to replace them (they usually do in most cases), but because the Russians are restricted on how fast they can replace units and also begin the transformation of the army from brigades/divisions into butt kicking corps backed by artillery. The more units the Germans can kill, the more AP resources the Russians are forced into unit construction and further delay the transformation. The more successful the Germans are in 1942 (provided they don't take hideous losses doing it), the better chance of a marginal victory they have because the Russians simply won't be able to advance fast enough in 1944 to get the job done.

Part of the issue of course that the vast majority of games never get to 43/44, so a lot of this is theory/conjecture. Most games see one side or the other quit.

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Post #: 41

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 6:46:45 PM

hfarrish

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Sorry on the "desired result." That wasn't specific to you and I know you are on both sides, so didn't mean to imply otherwise. I actually really don't think anyone argues this stuff in bad faith, more just everyone seems to think the other side is somehow ahistorically benefitting from rule quirks. I do feel like the 41 campaign is in pretty good shape right now, and regardless of the accuracy of any one particular piece of it, the balance (and historical feel) is about right overall.

If forts are a problem perhaps one solution is to make Soviet units a bit more effective independently in 41 as a tradeoff...This would make the 4-layer belts of forts in 42 more difficult without tipping the 41 play balance over the edge. Just a thought.

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 6:52:45 PM

fbs

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Hmm... people forget that fort level is level of fortification of the surrounding region, rather than the tiny little dot in the 10-miles hex that mean a trench. So if a fort is a logical thingie rather than a physical trench/obstacle/whatever, then consider the fact that it is easier to make 1000 ft of trenches than 1000 ft of runways. Also consider the fact that, as some terrains are flat and can be used as is as runways, some other terrain is not flat and can be used as is as forts.

Moreover, would those construction crews stay around to fight the Germans? Never! Therefore, it's a logical consequence that forts should be treated just like airbases: make them flee the enemies instead of being destroyed, at some cost for attrition.

Automatic displacement of forts... that's the rule that's missing from the manual. Just imagine the satisfaction of the German player putting in the run all those Soviet forts. And his surprise when all those forts recover, rebuild and come running after him in 1943!

THAT, my friend, is the solution for the Forts Dilemma in WitE.

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Post #: 43

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 7:12:25 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

It boils down to how easy it is for a smart Soviet player to avoid being encircled. As I said to my Soviet opponent: The only thing the Soviet has to do is ensure he doesn't do anything after Turn 10 that gets 500,000 Soviets isolated, and he knows he can ride it out until late 1942 and take the initiative.

The only way to beat the Soviets is casualties, and the game mechanics make it really easy for the Soviet to avoid repeating his historic predecessor's casualty figures. That's it - that's the problem with the game.

You hit the nail right on the head with this point.

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Post #: 44

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 7:30:47 PM

cookie monster

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Realistically it should be difficult for a Soviet player to lose the game.

The same can be said for the Allies in War in the Pacific Admirals Edition.

I think expecting to be able to play as the underdog and reach historical lines is abit strange.

Balancing the game to help achieve this is also not ideal.

Why play as the underdog and expect impressive results, when you must fully utilize a finely tuned yet small military to the maximum.

With all of histories disasters avoided and offensive and defensive strategies known, all what will happen is the German War machine will be overpowered quicker than in history.

If you have the guts to play as the underdog and be overpowered then fine.

Otherwise play the Soviets.

Other than that, go play something with equal sides, cos WitE sure ain't equal.

Ants vs Supermen then an unstoppable 10 million strong Soviet Army with Infantry Corps with XX as a defensive figure.

This game will never morph into anything different, no matter how much the game mechanics are discussed.

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 7:43:00 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

This game will never morph into anything different, no matter how much the game mechanics are discussed.

For me it is not a question of morphing it into something different, the issue for me is that the historical 1942 situation and campaign will simply not happen in the game. The game works well for 1941, but the resulting Kursk-like situation all over the front in 1942 does not feel historical.

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Post #: 46

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 7:48:53 PM

hfarrish

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As a defender of the "forts" system in 41 I wouldn't object to weakening it in 42 - perhaps just coming up with a way to bar completely third and fourth lines (even at Kursk I don't think the forts went 30 miles deep)...of course this will cut both ways, particularly for the German in 43 onwards. My main concern would just be a blanket cut that leaves the Soviet in 41 unable to get to levels 1-2, without which things are pretty hopeless against a decent German player.

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 9:14:41 PM

Tarhunnas

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Fairly typical fort lines and "no mans land", July 1942. No one wants to occupy the empty hexes.

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 9:48:07 PM

BleedingOrange

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Right now the Soviet player has all the advantages they had historically, some they didn't have such as foreknowledge and hindsight, and some disadvantages have been removed such as poor command and control and early war supply issues. The Soviets also get a bonus to attack which should have been a malus due to coordination issues the historically had. There is nothing given to the German player to balance this which leads to the Soviets being way stronger in 42 then they ever could have been historically and only getting stronger while the German is stuck with no reason to continue except to be a punching bag. Yes the Soviets won the war and should be easier to play, but if you want people to play the full campaign there needs to be the possibility to actually enjoy 42-43 for the Germans.

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 9:54:20 PM

jhdeerslayer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BleedingOrange

Right now the Soviet player has all the advantages they had historically, some they didn't have such as foreknowledge and hindsight, and some disadvantages have been removed such as poor command and control and early war supply issues. The Soviets also get a bonus to attack which should have been a malus due to coordination issues the historically had. There is nothing given to the German player to balance this which leads to the Soviets being way stronger in 42 then they ever could have been historically and only getting stronger while the German is stuck with no reason to continue except to be a punching bag. Yes the Soviets won the war and should be easier to play, but if you want people to play the full campaign there needs to be the possibility to actually enjoy 42-43 for the Germans.

I agree and good summary. I just feel that from 42 on the game just doesn't feel right but 41 does.

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 10:00:58 PM

heliodorus04

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BleedingOrange

Right now the Soviet player has all the advantages they had historically, some they didn't have such as foreknowledge and hindsight, and some disadvantages have been removed such as poor command and control and early war supply issues. The Soviets also get a bonus to attack which should have been a malus due to coordination issues the historically had. There is nothing given to the German player to balance this which leads to the Soviets being way stronger in 42 then they ever could have been historically and only getting stronger gn there needs to be the possibility to actually enjoy 42-43 for the Germans.

I do think it's fair to say that the Germans get the advantage of being able to move army group units around at will (a big advantage). The German is also not forced to stand & die in 41 or to stay in pockets that he could break out of (err, well, you really can't break out of a pocket in this game, but someone can break in).

And German supply is super simplified, even if it's not particularly advantageous to him.

The WitE German also knows that his axis minors suck a$$, whereas ol Adolf thought they could hold the line here and there... You can also make a halfway respectable force out of some minors through proper utilization of them.

That being said, the advantages the Soviet get are much more vast in consequence to the game.

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 10:39:02 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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It appears that fort haters and German lovers in this thread think Germans will never use forts and their own Jedi fort building capacity?

If you weaken and/or slow down fort building capacity, Germans will be pretty much unplayable after 43.

Seriously, you guys should play 43 scenario vs human if you haven't already. It's tons of fun, and gives you new perspective on some issues. Forts are suddenly Axis best friend, no Axis ONLY friend, and German fort building capacity overshadows anything Soviets had before (but that's OK, because Germans would really be lost without forts once the onslaught begins).

So, for the record: I am OK with fort building speed and ability in WITE from both sides.

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Post #: 52

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 10:45:51 PM

Mynok

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Fun for who?

I joke, of course, as I'm learning a lot about the end game without having to play a whole nother year.

Forts really aren't enough in 44. Just too much Soviet firepower. But it would be much worse if they were weakened.

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RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 10:56:10 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

It appears that fort haters and German lovers in this thread think Germans will never use forts and their own Jedi fort building capacity?

If you weaken and/or slow down fort building capacity, Germans will be pretty much unplayable after 43.

Seriously, you guys should play 43 scenario vs human if you haven't already. It's tons of fun, and gives you new perspective on some issues. Forts are suddenly Axis best friend, no Axis ONLY friend, and German fort building capacity overshadows anything Soviets had before (but that's OK, because Germans would really be lost without forts once the onslaught begins).

So, for the record: I am OK with fort building speed and ability in WITE from both sides.

Is that really comparable to the Soviet lines we are typically seeing in AARs in 1942? Do the Germans build triple lines of level 2 or 3 forts? What has been discussed above is not weakening the forts as such, but limiting the ability to build deep zones of them far from the frontline.

Edit: BTW what happened with the AAR of your 1943 campaign? Oleg and Mynok? Haven't seen anything there for a while. Given that there seem to be few who play the 1943 campaign it was interesting to follow.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 6/13/2011 10:58:21 PM >

_____________________________

Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

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Post #: 54

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 11:00:34 PM

heliodorus04

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

It appears that fort haters and German lovers in this thread think Germans will never use forts and their own Jedi fort building capacity?

If you weaken and/or slow down fort building capacity, Germans will be pretty much unplayable after 43.

Seriously, you guys should play 43 scenario vs human if you haven't already. It's tons of fun, and gives you new perspective on some issues. Forts are suddenly Axis best friend, no Axis ONLY friend, and German fort building capacity overshadows anything Soviets had before (but that's OK, because Germans would really be lost without forts once the onslaught begins).

So, for the record: I am OK with fort building speed and ability in WITE from both sides.

I'm not advocating they take longer to build.
I'm advocating they protect against a limited number of hex-sides based on their fort level.

In my consideration of this position, I felt this would make a more realistic game and would work for defensive realism of both sides. It forces Soviets to consider flanks and to try, in conjunction with terrain obstacles, to anchor lines of defense on his flanks (it reduces the effectiveness of linebacker, promoting defense in lines, with several lines. Checkerboard defenses have ruined the game, and IMO, are a-historic at the scale of the game (if this were a battalion level game with 3 mile hexes, checkerboard is more realistic).

With the German having higher maneuverability, German forces could bypass certain fortified areas as they historically did, and attack from unanticipated direction, reducing the effectiveness of the fort.

Conversely, the Soviet, who doesn't have as much maneuverability in 1943/1944, wouldn't be able to exploit gaps in lines as well as his German counterpart can. Moreover, as you yourself note, Germans dig in faster, so getting to a Level 3 fort happens faster (which would cover 3 or 4 hex-sides, and would be fully functioning as in the current game conditions).

If you see that as flawed, let me know how.

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Post #: 55

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 11:01:18 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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Tarhunnas, Germans have what I jokingly called Jedi fort building capacity. If they cannot build double or triple lines that's just because they don't have enough UNITS to do the building, but their building capacity per unit is fantastic.

Soviets on the other hand have artillery

Enough artillery will beat any German Jedi forts, but problem for the Soviet player is that he cannot apply enough arty everywhere, he has to choose.

All in all, I think fort building balance for both sides is fine. Forts are not indestructible, but they are quite enough to make the attacker choose his battles carefully, and apply enough force if he wants to win.

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Post #: 56

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 11:08:06 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I'm not advocating they take longer to build.
I'm advocating they protect against a limited number of hex-sides based on their fort level.

Be careful what you ask for, because I really see this idea of yours as going HEAVILY against Germans in the long run.

Forts are the only friends Germans have 43 and beyond. You don't have numbers, you have some edge in quality and morale but it's melting fast. The only true force multiplier you as German have are forts. Mynok is having a very hard time in our 43 game (which is in mid 44 already). Without forts protecting his units from multiple sides, it would be even harder for him...

Soviets have bazillions of individual units. In this war it will always be easier for them to mount multiple-side attacks than it is for Germans.

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Post #: 57

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 11:15:41 PM

Mynok

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quote:

Edit: BTW what happened with the AAR of your 1943 campaign? Oleg and Mynok? Haven't seen anything there for a while. Given that there seem to be few who play the 1943 campaign it was interesting to follow.

I'm finding it difficult to keep my end up due to time. But I'll try to update things tonight.

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(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 58

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 11:21:36 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

Edit: BTW what happened with the AAR of your 1943 campaign? Oleg and Mynok? Haven't seen anything there for a while. Given that there seem to be few who play the 1943 campaign it was interesting to follow.

I'm finding it difficult to keep my end up due to time. But I'll try to update things tonight.

I didn't do a proper AAR, I just posted my Excel table with most important numbers. I stopped doing it around turn 40, I forgot to update it for a couple turns and it didn't make sense to pick up later. In May 44 Rumanians capitulated and numbers are really skewed now (pro-Sov Rumanians are added to my totals) and the situation in the south is very fluid. For at least some time in the south we will have war of limited manouver, not just the slow grind from my Excel table

I made some incredible gains, but victory conditions are very very harsh for Soviets, basically I have to take the WHOLE map to win. As the territoty shrinks and goes into mountain zones, even his seemingly low numbers may be enough to stop me, we'll see....

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 59

RE: The most important thing to fix WitE's playability - 6/13/2011 11:27:06 PM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

With Zoc's, ants and forts the way they are Soviet only players will find it harder and harder to find a willing (long term) German opponent. Perhaps then something will be done. When I play Soviet I am utterly confident of victory. When German it is more a feeling of dread if I don't play a perfect turn each and every turn. And even that might not be enough.

One way to help the long game would be to have it end in May 1945. If the Germans survive till then they win. Soviets win if they take Berlin some time prior to May 1945. Having to hold out till October seems a big ask.

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(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 60