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Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 4:38:39 PM   
LordJim

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/8/2011
Status: offline 		What is the true relationship between a HQ and how much staff it needs to reach 100%?

Too often I find myself just moving a few staff at a time or whatever I think I might need, until I get close to 100% It would be nice to know what exactly I need so that I could not ony plan production but also would only need to make one transfer.

Also, is there a penalty for too much staff? (I would think there would be.)?


LJ

< Message edited by LordJim -- 6/15/2011 4:40:53 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 7:28:31 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		LordJim,
a HQ does not need a specific amount of staff to reach 100%. It depends on the units under it's command. It is best if your HQ is always 100%. If you keep adding staff to your HQ then your EP (experience points) will always be low, as the new staff need to be trained. The EP is needed to train the newer units that come into the HQ's control, these need to have their own unit (not in the HQ) otherwise they will not be trained so well - still green.

Best is to produce a HQ with a certain amount of staff, depending on what you plan to build, then build your division/corps/army around the HQ, again not letting the % go lower than 100.

You can transfer staff out of other HQ's to fill positions needed, preferably staff with a certain amount of EP to build up your HQ.

You can move the excess staff out of your HQ to another, then build the new units around it of use it as a Engineer HQ or a supply HQ.

Mat


_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to LordJim)
Post #: 2
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 7:38:59 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		 
The % of the HQ depends on the number of troops subordinate to it (how many tanks, soldiers and what not) and the number of staff in that HQ. The more troops = the more staff you need, to get to 100%
So,  if you have a HQ, say 100 staff or so, and the HQ% noted on one of its subordinate units says "HQ % = 80%"... (note, not HQ power, that's the number of hexes the HQ is away from an unit) then you know you got to add 20% more staff to that HQ. So that would be 20% of 100 = 20, so you have to add 20 more to that HQ to get up to 100%.
Note that if you have a large force, and the HQ of that force is, say at 55%... then you need easily another 100 staff to get at 100%. Very very large HQ's can have up to 200 staff in my games, most have 100-150. and the smaller ones 20-30 staff.

A penalty you say? No penalty other than that HQ will become more experienced more slowly. I try to maintain HQ percentage at about 90-110%. Although, sometimes in desperate situations, it can fall down to 50%. Mind you, a fully 100% Staff II HQ is a formidable foe, or friend.

(in reply to LordJim)
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RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 7:39:58 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		darn, british exile beat me to it... note to self, need to learn to type faster, LOL.

(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 4
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 7:57:36 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		Josh but you did cover the rest of his question.

Mat

_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 5
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 8:32:29 PM   
LordJim

 

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Joined: 5/8/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil

LordJim,
a HQ does not need a specific amount of staff to reach 100%. It depends on the units under it's command. It is best if your HQ is always 100%. If you keep adding staff to your HQ then your EP (experience points) will always be low, as the new staff need to be trained. The EP is needed to train the newer units that come into the HQ's control, these need to have their own unit (not in the HQ) otherwise they will not be trained so well - still green.


Well, I know this. But that was my question. How much, based on the HQ's units?

quote:

Best is to produce a HQ with a certain amount of staff, depending on what you plan to build, then build your division/corps/army around the HQ, again not letting the % go lower than 100.


Again, what is that "certain amount"? If I never know what a HQ needs based on its components, I'm going to be forever adding staff to hit full capacity.


LJ

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 6
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 8:51:30 PM   
LordJim

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/8/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

 
The % of the HQ depends on the number of troops subordinate to it (how many tanks, soldiers and what not) and the number of staff in that HQ. The more troops = the more staff you need, to get to 100%
So,  if you have a HQ, say 100 staff or so, and the HQ% noted on one of its subordinate units says "HQ % = 80%"... (note, not HQ power, that's the number of hexes the HQ is away from an unit) then you know you got to add 20% more staff to that HQ. So that would be 20% of 100 = 20, so you have to add 20 more to that HQ to get up to 100%.
Note that if you have a large force, and the HQ of that force is, say at 55%... then you need easily another 100 staff to get at 100%. Very very large HQ's can have up to 200 staff in my games, most have 100-150. and the smaller ones 20-30 staff.

A penalty you say? No penalty other than that HQ will become more experienced more slowly. I try to maintain HQ percentage at about 90-110%. Although, sometimes in desperate situations, it can fall down to 50%. Mind you, a fully 100% Staff II HQ is a formidable foe, or friend.



Those percentages just do not work, I don't think. Like you said and as I knew also, if you have a large force under an HQ's command, then this 20% of 100 just doesn't add up. It's all going to depend on how big a force you have. To get from 80% to 100% depends in a great part on how many units your HQ is commanding.

In the end I do eventually get there, but it's just a back-and-forth thing.

So what I'm asking is what exactly-- in the form of forces that a HQ controls-- does a HQ need? I'm thinking it has something to do with a units weight or numbers or both. For example, an HQ has one division of 4 LTs and 3 Mortars. LTs need x amount of staff and morars need x amount of staff, put these in the units' HQ and you got 100%.

On a related question, do the number of DIVISIONS make a difference in staff amount. For example, I have two divsions with 30 rifle in each, as compared to one divsion with 60 rifle-- any difference?


LJ


(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 7
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 9:09:47 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil

LordJim,
a HQ does not need a specific amount of staff to reach 100%. It depends on the units under it's command. It is best if your HQ is always 100%. If you keep adding staff to your HQ then your EP (experience points) will always be low, as the new staff need to be trained. The EP is needed to train the newer units that come into the HQ's control, these need to have their own unit (not in the HQ) otherwise they will not be trained so well - still green.


Well, I know this. But that was my question. How much, based on the HQ's units?

quote:

Best is to produce a HQ with a certain amount of staff, depending on what you plan to build, then build your division/corps/army around the HQ, again not letting the % go lower than 100.


Again, what is that "certain amount"? If I never know what a HQ needs based on its components, I'm going to be forever adding staff to hit full capacity.


LJ

LordJim you don't add staff to your HQ, you build your HQ and then you build around the HQ. If you go over the 100% then just move the last unit over to a new HQ.

In my game atm 2nd HQ 149% 179 Staff have at the moment 99 rifle,179 smg,4 AT Gun,42 Flak,31 MG,2 Mortar,9 Bazooka,17 Light Tank, 4 Fighter and 3 Divebomber under it's command. End of turn will have 2nd HQ reduced to have a battlegroup move in another direction.

There is no predetermined amount of staff needed. You decide what you need. Large Armies need large HQ's which in turn need more staff. Small battle groups need less staff. Just don't try to add new staff to your HQ as you will weaken your HQ. Just the same as adding new men to your units.

Mat


_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to LordJim)
Post #: 8
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 9:25:42 PM   
LordJim

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/8/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil

LordJim,
a HQ does not need a specific amount of staff to reach 100%. It depends on the units under it's command. It is best if your HQ is always 100%. If you keep adding staff to your HQ then your EP (experience points) will always be low, as the new staff need to be trained. The EP is needed to train the newer units that come into the HQ's control, these need to have their own unit (not in the HQ) otherwise they will not be trained so well - still green.


Well, I know this. But that was my question. How much, based on the HQ's units?

quote:

Best is to produce a HQ with a certain amount of staff, depending on what you plan to build, then build your division/corps/army around the HQ, again not letting the % go lower than 100.


Again, what is that "certain amount"? If I never know what a HQ needs based on its components, I'm going to be forever adding staff to hit full capacity.


LJ

LordJim you don't add staff to your HQ, you build your HQ and then you build around the HQ. If you go over the 100% then just move the last unit over to a new HQ.


I realize that a HQ is built and then divisions are typcially built, which the HQ supports. So what you're saying is that you create a HQ, plow in excessive numbers of staff, and then wait for it to dwindle down to 100%? But then what happens when things dwindle below 100? You add staff, no?

I don't understand the comment "If you go over....", sorry.

In my game atm 2nd HQ 149% 179 Staff have at the moment 99 rifle,179 smg,4 AT Gun,42 Flak,31 MG,2 Mortar,9 Bazooka,17 Light Tank, 4 Fighter and 3 Divebomber under it's command. End of turn will have 2nd HQ reduced to have a battlegroup move in another direction.

quote:

There is no predetermined amount of staff needed. You decide what you need. Large Armies need large HQ's which in turn need more staff. Small battle groups need less staff. Just don't try to add new staff to your HQ as you will weaken your HQ. Just the same as adding new men to your units.


Okay, can I ask one more time? Since I would know how many units are in my divisions and which HQ controls those divisions, how could I determine how much staff is needed BASED ON THOSE NUMBERS.

Even further, if I know I'm going to build an HQ with three divsions made up of 30 rifle each (to make it simple), how much staff would I need to get to 100%?


LJ


< Message edited by LordJim -- 6/15/2011 9:28:43 PM >

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 9
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 9:28:49 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		100 staff runs the following for me.

HQs 100 staff 2 flak 10 Mg 20 horses.

4x Inf Divisions, 45 rifle, 5 mg, 5 mortars, 5 bazooka, 2 Infantry guns, 1 AT Gun, 1 flak, 10 horses
2x Anti Tank brigades 4 AT Gun, 20 Rifle, 2 flak, 8 horses
1x Artillery Division 5 Artillery, 1 flak, 6 horses.

The size of the Hqs is determined by the size of the units assigned to said Headquarters.

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 10
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 10:09:11 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		"...Okay, can I ask one more time? Since I would know how many units are in my divisions and which HQ controls those divisions, how could I determine how much staff is needed BASED ON THOSE NUMBERS..."

Okay I'm a bit puzzled here, there may be a formula that says 100 Inf needs X amount of staff. But I, and I guess most of us, don't calculate that way. If you click on a HQ it says; "STF=27%" or something like that, meaning the number of Staff covers 27% of the total number of troops subordinate to that HQ, so you need about 5 times as many.

The rest is some experience I guess, so 30 rifles would need about 15 staff to get 100% Staff coverage. Game experience also shows that 100 staff gets you a decent "workable" force. In an ideal gameworld you want a HQ with units in a six-ten hexes area (to get the most out of your HQ bonus, more hexes away diminishes the HQ bonus). And you want that force to be efficient, that is when you're battling in a forest area you would need say 10-15 fully equiped Inf units, each about 50 points strong (30 Inf, some Machineguns, At guns, bazookas and the like). So that's about 100-150 staff in your HQ.
A HQ of say 250 staff will bring you nothing, it would need an ungodly amount of troops to get to 100%, to avoid overstacking you would then need to place these units many hexes apart... diminishing their HQ bonus. 
A armoured HQ consisting of 4-6 tankunits, some recon and Inf units can cover quite efficient a 6-10 hexes area, that HQ would need 125 staff or so.
At the moment I'm into a tough game against the AI, (Victors AI  ), damn tough, the first HQ that landed I poured in every unit and staff I could produce. Now the front has more or less stabilized I have created new HQ's each about 100 staff, they're 10 hexes away from the front so they can regain readiness. First I build the HQ, then build the new units up to 100 staff coverage.
Ideally for an invasion force you would need to build that force in your homeland and then transport them in ships, or do a strategic transport, but that would decrease their  readiness.

So in the end it's all dictated by AT's game-engine. What is a efficient force in a 6-10 hexes area? How many units will work together efficiently under the same HQ? I'd say 10-15 units, maybe 20 max. That number decides the size of your HQ.
Hmmm, come to think of it, maybe 1 staff = 10 Inf, and 2 staff = 1 tank... that would be the formula you would be looking for, dunno if that's correct or not. But it would be very cumbersome to calculate it that way.... in my case that is, hehe.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 11
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 10:13:26 PM   
LordJim

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/8/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

100 staff runs the following for me.

HQs 100 staff 2 flak 10 Mg 20 horses.

4x Inf Divisions, 45 rifle, 5 mg, 5 mortars, 5 bazooka, 2 Infantry guns, 1 AT Gun, 1 flak, 10 horses
2x Anti Tank brigades 4 AT Gun, 20 Rifle, 2 flak, 8 horses
1x Artillery Division 5 Artillery, 1 flak, 6 horses.

The size of the Hqs is determined by the size of the units assigned to said Headquarters.


Now we're getting somewhere. :) I'll see if I can figure this out, inside the game. I'll start small and then add little by little, and then see if I can corespond things to some unit attribute.

Thanks,

LJ

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 12
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 10:19:22 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Ooops, forgot to say, I work with 50 stackpoints units, so two of them fit in one hex without overstacking penalties. So a seven hexes front x 2 = 14 units. Yes you can make your units bigger, say 100 points (= 100 Inf, or 10 tanks) but in that case you won't get any multiple-hex attack bonus without getting the dreaded overstack penalty (if you make your units 100 points strong and you attack from two hexes you get a significant overstack penalty as the max number from one or two hexes is 100 and not 200).
If you stick with a certain number of staff in your HQ, and do not pour ever more new staff into it, your HQ will get you an extremely high staff bonus as that Exp. will rise higher and higher. ( if you win that is...) HQ with 80 Exp or more... is like having von Manstein or Guderian in your camp.

(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 13
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/15/2011 10:28:01 PM   
AlanBernardo

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

Ooops, forgot to say, I work with 50 stackpoints units, so two of them fit in one hex without overstacking penalties. So a seven hexes front x 2 = 14 units. Yes you can make your units bigger, say 100 points (= 100 Inf, or 10 tanks) but in that case you won't get any multiple-hex attack bonus without getting the dreaded overstack penalty (if you make your units 100 points strong and you attack from two hexes you get a significant overstack penalty as the max number from one or two hexes is 100 and not 200).
If you stick with a certain number of staff in your HQ, and do not pour ever more new staff into it, your HQ will get you an extremely high staff bonus as that Exp. will rise higher and higher. ( if you win that is...) HQ with 80 Exp or more... is like having von Manstein or Guderian in your camp.


I believe that is what Jim was talking about. To stick to a certain number of staff in HQ, one would need to know how much is how much. Of course, once hitting 100% you could stop there and not add any more units to divisions, but it would be good to know the exact equation between number and type of units and staff needed.


Alan

(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 14
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/16/2011 4:55:39 AM   
AlanBernardo

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

"...Okay, can I ask one more time? Since I would know how many units are in my divisions and which HQ controls those divisions, how could I determine how much staff is needed BASED ON THOSE NUMBERS..."

Okay I'm a bit puzzled here, there may be a formula that says 100 Inf needs X amount of staff. But I, and I guess most of us, don't calculate that way. If you click on a HQ it says; "STF=27%" or something like that, meaning the number of Staff covers 27% of the total number of troops subordinate to that HQ, so you need about 5 times as many.


No, it doesn't work that way. And I do believe it's important to know how exactly it does work.

quote:

The rest is some experience I guess, so 30 rifles would need about 15 staff to get 100% Staff coverage. Game experience also shows that 100 staff gets you a decent "workable" force.


Actually, from my own testing each rifle requires .10 staff. So for the above example, you would need 3 staff to cover 30 rifle and get to 100%. Try 15 staff for 30 rifle and you'd be 5x over the limit, or like 500%.

quote:


Hmmm, come to think of it, maybe 1 staff = 10 Inf, and 2 staff = 1 tank... that would be the formula you would be looking for, dunno if that's correct or not. But it would be very cumbersome to calculate it that way.... in my case that is, hehe.


It isn't cumbersome, and actually you could develop a spreadsheet that would tell you the exact number of staff needed for a HQ based on its composition. So far this is what I've come up with, and you've got it with the two guesses above:

Rifle = .10
Bazooka = .10

It's probably that all infantry types are .10.

Armored Car = 1.0
Light Tank = 2.0
Train = .1
Mortar = .5

Of course the question becomes, then, how about Rifle II or any other upgrade? Is it the same, or more?

There very well may be other factors besides these absolute numbers that determines staff-- at the moment, I really don't know.

But preliminary numbers would mean that if you're going to have one HQ, with two division, each with, say, for example, 30 Rifle, 5 Armored Cars, and 2 Light Tanks, you're going to need 24 Staff (60 Rifle x .10 = 6.0; 10 ACs x 1.0 = 10; 4 LTs x 2.0 =8: 6+10+8=24).

I think that such information would be good to know.

Further testing by anyone is surely welcomed. :)

If this goes across the board, without any variable messing with the numbers, in the end it would be very easy to calculate just how much staff you're going to need to get a HQ at 100% or at any percentage you'd want.

Programmers out there could even create an ATG Staff Calculator. :)

Edit: Machineguns go as .33, I believe. And also, having tested Rifle II and Machinegun II, there is no difference between I and II. Weight does not seem to be the determining factor, since both Rifle and Mortar have the same weight but need differing amounts of staff.

Alan



< Message edited by AlanBernardo -- 6/16/2011 6:10:19 AM >

(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 15
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/16/2011 8:23:49 AM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		But then what if I have the PP's and updrade to Staff II or even III? Do the equations still apply? Or must I start with new percentages?

LordJim might have opened a can of worms here.

Mat

_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to AlanBernardo)
Post #: 16
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/16/2011 10:32:19 AM   
EmTom

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline 		Excerpt from manual:

quote:


Staff Points
A HQ needs 1 staff point for each power point in control.


1 staff = 10 staff points.
You can find power points values on SFT details screen. It is in combat stats.

Easy enough?



_____________________________

I'm with you since People's Tactics and I love it!

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 17
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/16/2011 10:59:15 AM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		The manual!!!!

Why didn't we think of the manual? Sometimes life can be just too easy.


Mat

_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to EmTom)
Post #: 18
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/16/2011 2:17:02 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		Note that keeping staff at 100% is more critical at the beginning when the staff number is low. When a HQ has a lot of staff, adding some more staff will have a smaller effect on XP because the percentage increase of staff is smaller. So early on pile on the staff, but later on for a big HQ adding staff doesn't make much difference.

Henri

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 19
RE: Staff: HQ - 6/16/2011 2:20:32 PM   
AlanBernardo

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmTom

Excerpt from manual:

quote:


Staff Points
A HQ needs 1 staff point for each power point in control.


1 staff = 10 staff points.
You can find power points values on SFT details screen. It is in combat stats.

Easy enough?




That makes things much easier. No more trying to figure this out.

Thanks! I'm sure Jim is happy. About staff II and beyond, I think it probably would make little difference.

Now at least one knows how much staff is needed beforehand.

(BTW, a Heavy Tank needs 8 staff!)


Alan

(in reply to EmTom)
Post #: 20
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