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How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if ... - 6/15/2011 8:19:17 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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I tried the recommended tactics, and had my head handed to me. How the hell do you take down the Japanese CVTF if he concentrates all twelve of his carriers in it? It habitually has 135 Zeros on CAP... I set things up so all but one of my CVTFs had reaction zero and followed a single lead CVTF, and they still ended up spread around the Coral Sea. 220 aircraft lost attacking the Japanese carrier group!

That tactic goes in the trash.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

Post #: 1

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 8:32:59 PM

inqistor

Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
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Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 2

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 8:43:42 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

Yeah, but I can't even defend. The massed KB (8 CVs, 4 CVLs, 4 CS, 4 fast BBs, a bunch of DDs in two CVTFs) appears to be invulnerable. He's taken to leading with a heavy SAG to prevent me from getting to it with my surface units. It's ponderous, but it goes wherever it wants. I wouldn't mind except that he can systematically reduce each base in turn. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

<grumble>

< Message edited by herwin -- 6/15/2011 9:01:22 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 9:09:49 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

Yeah, but I can't even defend. The massed KB (8 CVs, 4 CVLs, 4 CS, 4 fast BBs, a bunch of DDs in two CVTFs) appears to be invulnerable. He's taken to leading with a heavy SAG to prevent me from getting to it with my surface units. It's ponderous, but it goes wherever it wants. I wouldn't mind except that he can systematically reduce each base in turn. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

<grumble>

But it can only be in one place at a time. That's your opening.

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The Moose

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Post #: 4

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 9:19:02 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

Yeah, but I can't even defend. The massed KB (8 CVs, 4 CVLs, 4 CS, 4 fast BBs, a bunch of DDs in two CVTFs) appears to be invulnerable. He's taken to leading with a heavy SAG to prevent me from getting to it with my surface units. It's ponderous, but it goes wherever it wants. I wouldn't mind except that he can systematically reduce each base in turn. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

<grumble>

But it can only be in one place at a time. That's your opening.

Exactly. Unfortunately, it likes to be where I want to be, and I need my carriers to suppress his Netties. I need to figure out how many carriers I need to suppress a Nettie offensive against one of my bases...

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Post #: 5

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 9:27:19 PM

bradfordkay

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From: Olympia, WA
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All you need for that is a couple of P38 squadrons.

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Brad

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 6

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 9:30:12 PM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
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From: Near Portland, OR
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Sometimes you might get lucky. Back in WitP, the AI massed most of the KB to attack Rabaul, which held out the early battles. I had a large amount of land based air there and happened to have the three Yorktowns in the area when the KB sortied from Truk to pound Rabaul. (This was a gainst the AI BTW.)

The Yorktowns parked south of Rabaul and on the first day of the battle happened to be socked in with rain. The land based air at Rabaul took heavy losses attacking the KB, but weakened the CAP in return. The next day I moved more aircraft to Rabaul. The US carriers had clear weather that day. A Rabaul base strike was first, which weakened the CAP further, then the US carriers struck and did significant damage to the KB.

Land based air in the Southwest Pacific took a while to rebuild, even with the crazy production rates in WitP, and the Hornet took a torpedo and was out for several months, but I think I sank three CVs outright and mauled the rest. The game pretty much turned in the Allies favor at that point. Interestingly, it was June 1942. Maybe the old AI was programmed to do a Midway type battle?

It was WitP, but the same luck factors could break your way in AE too. On the other hand, they could break the opposite way too.

Bill

_____________________________

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(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 7

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 9:30:48 PM

JeffroK

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What date is it??
How many CV do you have available??

Also B58 is right, if all of his CV are in the same place, push him in other theatres, make him react, maybe across some SS traps, cause him to use up fuel and maybe gather sys damage, wear him out.

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(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 8

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 9:33:38 PM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

All you need for that is a couple of P38 squadrons.

It's a while...

Maybe I should deploy a couple of the squadrons back in the 4th USAF.

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Post #: 9

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 9:36:16 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

What date is it??
How many CV do you have available??

Also B58 is right, if all of his CV are in the same place, push him in other theatres, make him react, maybe across some SS traps, cause him to use up fuel and maybe gather sys damage, wear him out.

July 14 1942. The force that got stonked had six CVs. I lost two early trying to knock out the KB in narrow seas off Borneo. That was before he learned to run a heavy SAG ahead.

I have been pushing elsewhere.

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Post #: 10

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 9:55:19 PM

herwin

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The answer seems to be you can't expect to take down a concentrated KB. Also, don't expect multiple CVTFs to stay together.

I've resigned and suggested we back off six weeks and pick up from there.

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Post #: 11

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 11:20:16 PM

USSAmerica

Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

Yeah, but I can't even defend. The massed KB (8 CVs, 4 CVLs, 4 CS, 4 fast BBs, a bunch of DDs in two CVTFs) appears to be invulnerable. He's taken to leading with a heavy SAG to prevent me from getting to it with my surface units. It's ponderous, but it goes wherever it wants. I wouldn't mind except that he can systematically reduce each base in turn. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

<grumble>

He may be pounding your bases one at a time, but he's not sinking a single one of them. He's burning gobs and gobs of fuel, so try to keep him moving, either by carrot or stick. You don't defeat the massed KB by CV air until you have fully upgraded all of your CVW's with next generation planes, Hellcats, etc. Until then, you try to pick away at the massed KB with LBA if he strays close enough, and with SS's. As frustrating as it is to watch dud after dud dent the side of enemy ships, it's just as scary for your opponent to see it, if the ships in question are his precious CV's. Remember, you will get many more, he will not.

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Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 12

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 11:21:52 PM

USSAmerica

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From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

The answer seems to be you can't expect to take down a concentrated KB. Also, don't expect multiple CVTFs to stay together.

I've resigned and suggested we back off six weeks and pick up from there.

You can expect to take down the massed KB the same way you chop down a big tree......not with one big axe swing, but with many swings chipping away at it. LBA and subs are the answer. Use your CV's somewhere that the KB ain't.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 13

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 11:43:18 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

The answer seems to be you can't expect to take down a concentrated KB. Also, don't expect multiple CVTFs to stay together.

I've resigned and suggested we back off six weeks and pick up from there.

You can expect to take down the massed KB the same way you chop down a big tree......not with one big axe swing, but with many swings chipping away at it. LBA and subs are the answer. Use your CV's somewhere that the KB ain't.

I agree. Now if I can get a SAG past his extremely light screen,...

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Post #: 14

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/15/2011 11:55:17 PM

AirGriff

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You can take down Jap carriers en masse, but you have to be very observant, calculating, and of course, lucky. I've been able to pull off 2 "Midways" in PBEM's, and they were both in '42, one in March--granted, those were in WitP. If you go looking for a head to head fight with KB on "even" terms before you get staffed with Hellcats, well...

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Post #: 15

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 12:05:51 AM

bigred

Posts: 3599
Joined: 12/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I tried the recommended tactics, and had my head handed to me. How the hell do you take down the Japanese CVTF if he concentrates all twelve of his carriers in it? It habitually has 135 Zeros on CAP... I set things up so all but one of my CVTFs had reaction zero and followed a single lead CVTF, and they still ended up spread around the Coral Sea. 220 aircraft lost attacking the Japanese carrier group!

That tactic goes in the trash.

hi harry..one technique I have used early in the game is to place 5/7 dutch subs into a TF w/ an aggressive commander. This Tf should operate in an area I know will attract the KB. As time progresses I add PT boat intervention and sea mines to the issue(start the subs from port loaded w/ mines then drop the mines into the hex w/ the KB). The cumulative effect is to pick off or damage one or two high value targets.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 16

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 12:13:09 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

I recall someone taunting the KB with small invasions of Japanese held islands. When he knew where the KB was, he'd put ashore a unit on the other end of the empire, then pull out and leave before the KB could get there. I think he lost a few transports with this trick and some ground devices, but he had the super KB running back and forth across the empire trying to put out fires.

The Marshalls are a great target for this sort of trick. Once you get Japanese land based air supressed, the islands are hard to defend. If the Japanese player chooses not to try and stop your invasion, you have a toe hold in the middle of his empire. It's a bit harder to pull off this trick in the Far East where Japanese LBA can be strong with support from multiple bases.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to bigred)

Post #: 17

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 2:33:24 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

What date is it??
How many CV do you have available??

Also B58 is right, if all of his CV are in the same place, push him in other theatres, make him react, maybe across some SS traps, cause him to use up fuel and maybe gather sys damage, wear him out.

July 14 1942. The force that got stonked had six CVs. I lost two early trying to knock out the KB in narrow seas off Borneo. That was before he learned to run a heavy SAG ahead.

I have been pushing elsewhere.

Not sure that you can at this point in the war unless, as IRL, the IJN has already lost some CV's. IRL, Yamamoto split his forces. Your opponent has not. Thus, you cannot think you can emulate the RL results unless you have a similar in game situation.

If he has kept the KB together, you need to wait for '43 before taking on the KB unless he comes to you and you can bring significant LBA forces to bear.

_____________________________

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Post #: 18

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 2:46:48 AM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline

Without revealing any trade secrets, here are few things to try.

1. - dont fight it...pretty simple, but run your behind away at maximum speed...set ambushes with your CV's and only spring if the enemy is broken up.
2. - manage pilots so only 70+ skill pilots are aboard.
3. - if you expect to be outnumbered, change the game so that the odds improve in your favor. This inlcudes adding fighter ssquadrons, swapping out bomber for fighter squadrons, and even the extreme of putting only fighters on the carriers (and moving your bombers to a nearby land base.
4. - only fight in range of a good airbase with many fighters that can supplement CAP and provide incremental bomber support
5. - know how many fighters you need to withstand enemy onslaughts. 2 to 1 minimum needed to deflect most of an enemy attack. Three or 4 to one desirable.
6. - search heavily and at maximum distance when naval or carrier combat is a possibility. Dont engage if you are that outnumbered!
7. - use picket TF's of a DD / pg, AK, PT, etc or two out a dozen or more hexes. They will encounter the enemy first and provide critical warning
8. - put BB's in your CV TF's. they will take many of the hits
9. - be patient. Once you've established a decisive battle enemy strategy, you should utilize deception to draw away the enemy away from your intended target. Also use smaller jumps rather than long leap invasions.
10 - mass a dozen or more subs. In 42, mainly spotters, in 43, they will take their toll
Hope this helps.

< Message edited by topeverest -- 6/16/2011 2:48:33 AM >

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Post #: 19

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 3:49:31 AM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
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In early '42, I put on a 18 plane Marine fighter group to give me 45 fighters until the re-sizing happens in July (27 + 18 = 45). It may take a few months, but they will become "carrier trained." After July '42, you can break up these 18 plane groups to add a few extra fighters to your American CVs. Use your 110% overstacking capability to your advantage rather than stay at 90 planes or less.

If your careful, you can train up your American CVs early and try to hit the Japanese before they re-size in July from the 18 Zeros most have.

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Post #: 20

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 7:05:10 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I tried the recommended tactics, and had my head handed to me. How the hell do you take down the Japanese CVTF if he concentrates all twelve of his carriers in it? It habitually has 135 Zeros on CAP... I set things up so all but one of my CVTFs had reaction zero and followed a single lead CVTF, and they still ended up spread around the Coral Sea. 220 aircraft lost attacking the Japanese carrier group!

That tactic goes in the trash.

hi harry..one technique I have used early in the game is to place 5/7 dutch subs into a TF w/ an aggressive commander. This Tf should operate in an area I know will attract the KB. As time progresses I add PT boat intervention and sea mines to the issue(start the subs from port loaded w/ mines then drop the mines into the hex w/ the KB). The cumulative effect is to pick off or damage one or two high value targets.

I've been trying a version of that. Mining Saint Georges Channel is a good idea.

_____________________________

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Post #: 21

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 7:06:52 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I recall someone taunting the KB with small invasions of Japanese held islands.� When he knew where the KB was, he'd put ashore a unit on the other end of the empire, then pull out and leave before the KB could get there.� I think he lost a few transports with this trick and some ground devices, but he had the super KB running back and forth across the empire trying to put out fires.

The Marshalls are a great target for this sort of trick.� Once you get Japanese land based air supressed, the islands are hard to defend.� If the Japanese player chooses not to try and stop your invasion, you have a toe hold in the middle of his empire.� It's a bit harder to pull off this trick in the Far East where Japanese LBA can be strong with support from multiple bases.

Bill

The Marshalls are an idea. I need an alternative way to suppress the Nettie attacks on PM.

_____________________________

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Post #: 22

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 7:14:05 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

What date is it??
How many CV do you have available??

Also B58 is right, if all of his CV are in the same place, push him in other theatres, make him react, maybe across some SS traps, cause him to use up fuel and maybe gather sys damage, wear him out.

July 14 1942. The force that got stonked had six CVs. I lost two early trying to knock out the KB in narrow seas off Borneo. That was before he learned to run a heavy SAG ahead.

I have been pushing elsewhere.

Not sure that you can at this point in the war unless, as IRL, the IJN has already lost some CV's. IRL, Yamamoto split his forces. Your opponent has not. Thus, you cannot think you can emulate the RL results unless you have a similar in game situation.

If he has kept the KB together, you need to wait for '43 before taking on the KB unless he comes to you and you can bring significant LBA forces to bear.

Actually, this is a question for the experienced naval officers out there--what do you do with a Red CVTF that has eight carriers and a light screen? I've been trying to hit it with SAGs. It worked until he learned to use a heavy SAG as cover. I've also tried operating in a ring around his force, but he simply moves up to challenge one of the TFs. I suspect reaction is my friend.

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Post #: 23

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 7:16:21 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Without revealing any trade secrets, here are few things to try.

1. - dont fight it...pretty simple, but run your behind away at maximum speed...set ambushes with your CV's and only spring if the enemy is broken up.
2. - manage pilots so only 70+ skill pilots are aboard.
3. - if you expect to be outnumbered, change the game so that the odds improve in your favor. This inlcudes adding fighter ssquadrons, swapping out bomber for fighter squadrons, and even the extreme of putting only fighters on the carriers (and moving your bombers to a nearby land base.
4. - only fight in range of a good airbase with many fighters that can supplement CAP and provide incremental bomber support
5. - know how many fighters you need to withstand enemy onslaughts. 2 to 1 minimum needed to deflect most of an enemy attack. Three or 4 to one desirable.
6. - search heavily and at maximum distance when naval or carrier combat is a possibility. Dont engage if you are that outnumbered!
7. - use picket TF's of a DD / pg, AK, PT, etc or two out a dozen or more hexes. They will encounter the enemy first and provide critical warning
8. - put BB's in your CV TF's. they will take many of the hits
9. - be patient. Once you've established a decisive battle enemy strategy, you should utilize deception to draw away the enemy away from your intended target. Also use smaller jumps rather than long leap invasions.
10 - mass a dozen or more subs. In 42, mainly spotters, in 43, they will take their toll
Hope this helps.

I've been trying most of those. (3) looks worth thinking about.

_____________________________

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Post #: 24

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 7:18:11 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

In early '42, I put on a 18 plane Marine fighter group to give me 45 fighters until the re-sizing happens in July (27 + 18 = 45). It may take a few months, but they will become "carrier trained." After July '42, you can break up these 18 plane groups to add a few extra fighters to your American CVs. Use your 110% overstacking capability to your advantage rather than stay at 90 planes or less.

If your careful, you can train up your American CVs early and try to hit the Japanese before they re-size in July from the 18 Zeros most have.

I can do this. The problem with the massive KB is that it can put 135-150 Zeros into the air without breathing hard.

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Post #: 25

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 7:30:22 AM

CV 2

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Best way is to lay a trap. Load a squadron of Marine fighters on each of your carriers and put the bulk of your fighters on CAP (70%). Mass S-boats in the area he will approach from, and as Bill already has said, use land based air. Let him come to you.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 26

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 8:43:42 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV 2

Best way is to lay a trap. Load a squadron of Marine fighters on each of your carriers and put the bulk of your fighters on CAP (70%). Mass S-boats in the area he will approach from, and as Bill already has said, use land based air. Let him come to you.

I can do this. I have the assets in-theater, and some of the USMC guys already have carrier experience. I'll use the Long Island for training them up. Life is good again.

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Post #: 27

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 10:44:19 AM

CV 2

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They dont need to be carrier trained (unless of course you have a house rule on it). Even if the ops losses are higher (which I dont see significant numbers to worry about it) you are looking to fight 1 battle with them, not a campaign.

And dont worry about the type of fighter either. Better is better of course but even Buffs work against Vals and Kates

< Message edited by CV 2 -- 6/16/2011 10:46:13 AM >

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 28

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 3:51:09 PM

jeffk3510

Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline

I took on the KB before my CVs were upgraded and my squads. The result? I re-started my game

I think the best advise, and it has been stated numerous times, is to lay some form of a trap, and keep the them running all over the Pacific until you have upgraded both your ships and planes.

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Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

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Post #: 29

RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers... - 6/16/2011 7:20:05 PM

inqistor

Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
The problem with the massive KB is that it can put 135-150 Zeros into the air without breathing hard.

Well, in late 1943, you would consider yourself terribly unlucky, if you have ONLY 300 HELLCATs on CAP

Allies are actually all about land-based heavy bombers. You close airfields, and destroy planes there. CVs are only mostly support, until 1944.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 30

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated?

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