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What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 3:45:33 AM   
shinobu


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/12/2009
Status: offline 		Looks like we have a lot of long time gamers on this forum, so I'd like to get opinions from the group on this question: what game that you've played has the best AI? Best AI meaning a really tough game to beat; a stiff challenge. You actually have to bring your "A" game or the computer will mop the floor with you. Anyone run in to that type of experience before?
Post #: 1
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 3:59:23 AM   
lordxorn


Posts: 768
Joined: 12/6/2009
Status: offline 		It seems to me that AIs from the Grognard or less than Grognard type games have the best AI by necessity. These games are certainly not going to attract customers on graphics alone, so the AI is a focus. Some examples are War in the Pacific:AE, or Commander At War:Europe, etc....

I do not consider a Cheating AI to be worthy because all it forces a player to do it maximize their play order like in Civilization series to be able to keep up with AIs allowed to take shortcuts like reduced maintenance and lower build times.

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 4:35:45 AM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		Probably the Chess games out there. That's just a guess mind you.

Some bloke once said he needs a powerful comp to run them.

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Post #: 3
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 6:53:45 AM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		I think we've had another thread on the exact same question, I tend to agree with lordxorn but I also consider the AI in SR2 very well designed.

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 7:45:36 AM   
J HG T


Posts: 1093
Joined: 5/14/2010
From: Kiadia Prime
Status: offline 		I've played AI war and its expansions from time to time and that's quite good AI right there. Can't really remember other good examples right now. Been playing way too much on consoles in recent times TBH. Alpha Centauri, Dungeon Keeper, Crusader: No Remorse and other GOG classics are thankfully changing that slowly.


@Data
TBH, SR2s AI is designed to act in realistic ways, not to be challenging. The challenge comes from trying to survive in the universe which is under attack from the Doms.
If you have played the Reboot version with hardest Dom setting you should really understand why Dom are called The Dominators. This is because all limitations on their behaviour are lifted on hardest difficulty. Trust me, it hurts.
Hordes of Shtips armed with triple disintegrators and Shmers with quad torpedo launchers invading the few systems left in the very first year isn't exactly good AI. It's just overkill.

Have to agree with lordxorn too. But, as a little defence, for what I know Civs AI starts to cheat only on certain levels.
I'll probably never play Alpha Centauri (which I recently started playing. Thanks to the GOG. Hope they'll release Alien Crossfire too as soon as possible) on harder than Librarian 'cause I know AI starts to cheat after that.
I generally don't accept cheating AI on strategy games. If AI is allowed to cheat on some difficulty levels, IT MUST BE TOLD TO THE PLAYER. Nothing is more frustrating than fighting a cheating AI without knowing it is allowed to cheat.




< Message edited by J HG T -- 6/14/2011 7:46:52 AM >

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 12:16:36 PM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline 		I'm with cookie... the only AI I've ever played that was a challenge (that didn't have a crazy advantage of some sort), was in a chess game.

Although I'm guessing you mean a video game sort, and if that's the case, I'd have to go with the AI in the Fall from Heaven II mod for Civ IV.  I also thought the AI in EU III was pretty good as far as AI goes (although I was playing that modded too).  Seems that all good AI in games comes from mods :P

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 1:14:04 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		That's not surprising considering the fact that even if players are not developers (and even if they were they don't have access to stuff that it's not open by the game developer) they are soooo many
So it's unavoidable that any good thing made by a developer will be perfected by a modder who sits on the shoulders of the giant.
Provided the developer opens the game for modding.....yes, I'm again talking about the new expansion

< Message edited by Data -- 6/14/2011 1:16:17 PM >

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 2:20:17 PM   
Locarnus


Posts: 287
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline 		Chess games dont need an AI
They just need lots of situations and their "solutions" saved in a databank

Thats why chess computers can beat humans.
For "AI" try a GO game
Every experienced player can wipe the floor with the best AIs in this simple game.

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 2:56:55 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		even for chess is not about sheer knowledge, it's a more complex system of wighing relative values of pieces that warrants the AI name

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 4:40:27 PM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Locarnus
For "AI" try a GO game
Every experienced player can wipe the floor with the best AIs in this simple game.


I don't know if I'd be calling Go "simple"

And they have designed an AI that beat a 5D with a 9 handicap, if I remember correctly. Although I don't think that's saying too much.

< Message edited by MartialDoctor -- 6/14/2011 4:42:52 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 4:41:55 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		The simpler the game, the easier it is to make a very challenging AI. With that said, I think that the challenge of computer players has been improving consistently in our releases over time and for the strategy genre in general. For an example of a single player vs. AI focused game that does not cheat and is still too hard for some players, have a look at Hannibal: Rome and Carthage (free demo here: ftp://ftp.matrixgames.com/pub/Hannibal/HannibalRomeCarthage-Demo-v103.zip)

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 11
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 5:04:54 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		Nice to see you back in here, Erik...can you begin the harassing now?

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Post #: 12
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 7:29:07 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Data

Nice to see you back in here, Erik...can you begin the harassing now?


Start a thread titled

MR ERIK RUTINS WE DEMAND A FEATURES LIST!

It will soon be full of Tumbleweed Animated Pictures

LOL

Edit:

Ok so he did provide a few teasers in another thread which I read after writing this.

Space creatures inclusion wasn't my idea of info, although I'm sure Igard will be ecstatic!

Now if only we could farm them...

< Message edited by cookie monster -- 6/14/2011 7:49:32 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 7:40:08 PM   
J HG T


Posts: 1093
Joined: 5/14/2010
From: Kiadia Prime
Status: offline 		From what I've understood, it also matters greatly if the game is turn-based or real-time. Just think how much easier it would be for AI to manage Distant Worlds gameplay when it would (in some mysterious way. SPACE MAGIC!) converted to a TBS game, like many other 4Xs.

I always keep this in mind when playing more and more complex real-time strategy games. It isn't excuse for clearly flawed and rubbish AIs though. No offences meant towards anybody, in case you are getting that feeling.


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Post #: 14
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 8:18:02 PM   
martok


Posts: 837
Joined: 8/30/2004
Status: offline 		Offhand, I can think of three 4x games with noteworthy AI: Galactic Civilizations 2, Sword of the Stars, and Armada 2526.

Other war/strategy games where the computer is a worthy opponent include Shogun Total War (the original), Europa Universalis 3, and Gary Grigsby's War Between the States (which, like Armada, is also published by Matrix).



< Message edited by martok -- 6/14/2011 8:23:55 PM >

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 8:29:12 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		SOTS wth expansions is the only 4X game that keeps me on my toes even with a developed empire.I can not really say the same about other 4x space games.



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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/14/2011 9:38:34 PM   
Speedy2511

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 3/4/2010
Status: offline 		Yeah! SOTS had one of the best AI out there for a 4X Game

I hope that SOTS2 is going to have the same or better AI.

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Post #: 17
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/15/2011 5:43:05 AM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline 		It's not 4x, but X-Com UFO Defense. Attack an alien base. You'll be lucky to leave
with your 'jewels' intact!

...Don't come weak!

< Message edited by ehsumrell1 -- 6/15/2011 5:44:31 AM >

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/15/2011 7:15:17 AM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		I love XCOM but the routes the enemies take and the places they spawn in are pretty much known. The AI is good but predictable....actually having an unpredictable AI is the stuff of dreams.

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Post #: 19
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/15/2011 2:19:53 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1

It's not 4x, but X-Com UFO Defense. Attack an alien base. You'll be lucky to leave
with your 'jewels' intact!

...Don't come weak!


Great game. I have the full XCom collectors pack. Its a real difficult game and quite addictive.

Those Green monsters were tough, and the highly psionic skilled creatures.

As soon as my men were trained in mind control though the game was easy to win.

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Post #: 20
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/15/2011 2:22:26 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		the greenies being the mutons and the high psionic ones the ethereals.....did you ever manage to finish terror from the deep? i think the traulers are the longest type of mission in any game...ever.

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Post #: 21
RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/16/2011 8:58:17 AM   
greywolf1

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/7/2011
Status: offline 		I feel like many here do: „AI“ contains „I“ for „Intelligence“. Thus „AI“ shouldn’t be equated with „hard to beat“ (which can also be achieved by sheer quantitative superiority or by being able to see and know what human players don’t, by cheating, with other words), but with „plays intelligently“.
Chess AI is somewhere in the middle, I guess. Access to a huge quantity of data, more than a human could digest (but that’s what applies to human chess champions, too, by the way, only to a somewhat lesser degree, compared to Chess AI’s), and a very high processing speed. On the other hand, these data masses must be used cleverly. So there is a degree of intelligence AND a degree of something which could be considered close to cheating.

I would like to introduce the notion of AIP’s, Artificial Intelligence Personalities. These guys are computer opponents which can be inserted into a game and play against humans or against each other. AIP’s are game-specific mods, subject to exactly the same rules as human players, no extra resources, no extra information. AIP’s do exist, for example, for an old 4x game, VGA Planets (which I haven’t played myself much – too much micro management, for my taste).
I agree that experienced players are in a better position to develop AIP’s than the game’s developers, but the game must be designed to support AIP’s. I can’t tell whether or not this is the case for DW or other games mentioned in this thread. Even if, it would be quite tough to design and develop a challenging AIP, but I would imagine that there are some guys around who would love (and are capable) to do it.

Imagine:
- AIP tournaments
- MP games including AIP participants (especially when the AIP’s have decent skills in cooperating, with each other – without cheating - and with humans)
- SP’s have a choice of AIP’s to play against.

:-)


< Message edited by greywolf1 -- 6/16/2011 9:00:39 AM >

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/16/2011 12:22:31 PM   
Magpius


Posts: 1632
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge
and a list of their awards

< Message edited by Agent S -- 6/16/2011 12:24:59 PM >

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RE: What game has the best AI? - 6/16/2011 12:27:03 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		grognards

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