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Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 1:27:51 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		End of Turn 27

Ok the Armaments bug is back or something like it again my manpower pool has jumped up from 270k to 320k to 370k the last 3 turns. Like I explianed with my game vs Cyclops the pool was over 1 million by March 1st. I have played at least 4 other games until past blizzard and have nothing like this going on in them.

I have lost 300k troops and none have been replaced for the last 3 turns.

Not sure if this is a bug or not, but until someone explains why this is going on I will have to put this game on hold at this turn.

Pelton






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RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 1:30:31 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Can you just ran out of ARM? I see many games when Axis player is not short on ARM at this point. And if they short this is expected as it was the lowest production point historically and in the game.



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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 1:31:38 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

Ok the Armaments bug is back


Btw, there was no Armament bug in the past, so nothing can get back.

< Message edited by Helpless -- 6/17/2011 1:32:21 PM >

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WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 1:43:02 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Quote from Tarhunnas on the A bug.


I have been seeing tendencies of the same thing now in my two games, plenty of men but no rifles. See: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2838922. I am apprehensive about this because in my first 1942 campaign, my army basically fell apart in the autumn of 1943 because of an armaments problem that is now supposedly fixed. See: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2739973&go=last for the AAR.

Pelton

Back forward name it what you like what gives?

You really should get a nose job






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< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/17/2011 1:46:13 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 1:50:57 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		There was a scenario setup problem for 1942 scenario. This is nothing to do with situation various game may arrive by the end of 1941.

If you feel that Germans don't get enough of ARM, you can always modify scenario data. Editor is free.

< Message edited by Helpless -- 6/17/2011 1:54:53 PM >

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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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Post #: 5
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 1:57:53 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		And before you start doing anything with editor :), I suggest to try a new Campaign with 1.04.28+. There was real combat bugs fixed, which could result Germans to be in a bit better shape with armaments.

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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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Post #: 6
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 3:55:16 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Why is it this one game? and not the other ones?

I have only taken 75k, 102k and 117k in deaths in 3 turns, which is really gimp for blizzard turns yet my pool is growing by 50k a turn and my armerments are at 90k.
As far as Guns and tanks go I have lost next to nothing also.

This is not my first blizzard VS Larry (186k dead in one turn),Hoooper (150k+ everyturn), Swifty to name a few the manpower pool never got over 200,000. Hoooper was doing far more damage then this an no problems.

So what your saying is this game is bugged and we need to restart?

I have destoried 40% of his ARM and 25% fo his hvy and we need to restart because of some stupid bug?

Its like the more industry I destory the less I get replaced.
You sure you guys did really screw up something along the way.

At this rate I will have close to 750000 men in my pool by March first and 2.2 million men at the front?

There is nothing wrong here everyone move along

The Russian's did not destory 141 German ARM pts dude I destoryed 141 Russian ARM pts

This is 1 of 10 campiagns and so far 2 have had this bug. So basicly 20% of all game are going to be junk and a waste of time?

Whatever.


Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/17/2011 4:00:52 PM >

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 7
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 4:14:30 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		This is my 10th campaign(not counting T's) and 2 have had this issue. VS Cyclops by March 1st I had 2,000,000 men at the front and 1.2 million in the manpower pool.

The last 3 turns my manpower pool is growing by 50k+ per turn and I am only taking 110K ish deaths a turn. Manpower is at 420K and growing. I am guessing this has been going on for some time, because in most games it never gets over 200k. At this rate I have 1.0 million men in the pool and 2.2 million at front by March 1st. Seems both games bugged out at about the same time.

I really hate to stop because I have dropped so much industry and feel I have an easy minor victory, but if I played another 40 turns I have 3.2 million men in my manpower pool and zero at front.

Pelton

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Post #: 8
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 5:09:13 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		You should see a turnaround as the Axis armaments multiplier increases in 1942. You'll use up those men enventually. You will churn through armaments in the winter of 41/42 but things will get better (at least in that area).

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
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Post #: 9
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 5:55:11 PM   
EntropyAvatar

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 2/14/2011
Status: offline 		How many German rifle squads are in the pool? If there's manpower but no equipment in the pool, it's an armaments problem. If there's manpower AND equipment in the pool, then it's a reinforcement rate problem.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 10
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 5:55:12 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		If I am understanding this correctly, some combat issues priot to 1.04.28 together with a low point in German armaments might be causing this, and it should go away in 1942 due to higher German armaments production?

I don't want to make too much of this, I realize that things might fluctuate according to how much combat and losses there are and such in different games, but in my game against Gids I had 93k Armaments and 112k men in the pool in January, in July 1942 I have no armaments and 80k men. I should add that there had been heavy combat all spring and early summer, so that might have an effect.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 6/17/2011 5:56:21 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 7:04:12 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Hmm I have built 2971 and there are still 2394 in the pool. I have had 90k + armerments in pool every turn. ALL my units have refit on always do.

Joel Billings I have not been lacking in arms the pools at 90k.

Again this is the very same way I always play and never get this high in the pool. The death rate in this game is low compared to my others and they pools never get over 300000.

So only 600 had been sent to the front in 20+ turn? That doent sound right to me. The other 2394 been on vacation for the past 4 months?

The other squads (cav,eng, gred ect) are all getting to the front for the most part, over 75%. Only 18% of the rifle squads are being deployed but 75% of all other squads? That can't be close to right can it?

In my other games which have way more combat and losses I get to 250,000 tops and my front line troops never get below 2.7 million by March.

This is different only other game that was like this was Cyclops. 117,75 and 102k is very light for losses. Larry had several turns of 186kish this should be a breeze, but all my troops have been going to the pool for at least 4 turns. I would say they been going to the pool now for 6 to 7 turns and there has been ZERO combat before the last 3 blizzard turns.

Before Cyclops disappearred by March I had 1.2 millionish in the pool. I was playing Hoooper at the same time same turns sme patchs and it topped out at 250kish.

Why the huge difference?

Pelton




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/17/2011 7:26:12 PM >

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RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 7:24:44 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		I will keep playing to see if it starts to drop after january, not sure why it would if it started growing before Dec and I still have 90k arms in pool.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 13
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 7:28:07 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		The armaments production levels have changed over the past few months:

v1.04.15 Rule Change – Each Armament factory now uses 50 supply points to produce 250 armament points per turn.

v1.03 Beta 3 Rule Change – Each Armament factory now uses 50 supply points to produce 200 armament points.

v1.00 - Each armament factory uses 100 supplies to produce 500 armament points.


Also, bug fixes and changes to other rules/formulas could have an impact on the number of Armaments points used, although the production changes were by far the biggest change. So as you can see, depending on what version you were using and when you upgraded, you could have more or less Armaments points. We think the current level as of v 1.04.15 provides the tension in the production system that is needed to be historical.

When you toggle to just show active pools, what do the numbers look like (click on All Pools text in lower right of production screen)?

Is this a server game, or do you have saves you can post?

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Post #: 14
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 7:43:21 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Pelton,

You need to understand how the transit pool works. Right now, you have the pools unfiltered and those numbers you're seeing could cause some confusion.

Showing all pools, will combine the transit pool, and the active pool. Showing all nationalities will combine both the Germans, and all the minor allies. You should filter out for the Germans, and then cycle through Active Pool, Transit Pool, and Combined to see what is really going on. You will probably find that all those Ge Rifle squads you see, are sitting in the transit pool, and will only be released back into the active pool, and thus ready for redistribution to your frontline units at a rate of 25% of the current pool total.

Investigate your pools in detail, and you'll get a better idea of the situation.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 15
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 7:48:17 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Hmmm, interesting, if I show the pools for all nations, there is no apparent armaments shortage.




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Post #: 16
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 7:49:41 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		But if I filter to Germany, there is. Not sure how to interpret this, but does that mean the Rumanians and Hungarians are swimming in rifles, while Germans go without?




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RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 8:00:11 PM   
Arstavidios

 

Posts: 780
Joined: 11/19/2004
Status: offline 		There have been many quiet turns followed by the soviet winter offensive.
this may explain why the pools fill suddenly until they reach a state where as many men come in as come out?

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Post #: 18
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 8:00:39 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

But if I filter to Germany, there is. Not sure how to interpret this, but does that mean the Rumanians and Hungarians are swimming in rifles, while Germans go without?



They just don't have enough units to utilize those 10k sent by Germany.

I think it should be moved to war room.

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WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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Post #: 19
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 9:52:45 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Its should be moved because I have had 6 games in winter without this crazy high manpower pool and 2 that have.

If you like fancy pants I give you my account info, like most normal tech support poeple do and you can look at it sure self?

Ok I get some screens of the windows.


(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 20
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 9:56:31 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Active pool I guess




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Post #: 21
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 9:58:33 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Transit pool




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RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 10:02:29 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Pelton,

In post #22, please do a different screenshot that filters for only German equipment in the transit pool. Like the one you did for the active pool in post #21. The current one still has the minor ally information in it, and will make it difficult to compare things. Thanks.

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Post #: 23
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 10:09:35 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		So I have 200k in active pool and 164k in transit pool

So why are so many in active pool? You said they be in the transit pool.

Why is this game so different from my other games, which never come close to these numbers.

Also why are so many Rifle squads in the pool and all the other types of squads Eng, Cav Grend ect are not?

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Post #: 24
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 10:13:00 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Only 130k in transit and 200k active.

Active as on vacation?




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/17/2011 10:15:15 PM >

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RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 10:17:57 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		JamiaM you know anything about a guild named EB?

Side note.

Played allot of SB with a guy by your name. 03-06

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/17/2011 10:18:59 PM >

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RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 11:00:12 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Okay...let's do a fast and dirty walkthrough on this.

We'll look at the German Manpower, Armaments, and the German Rifle Squads for the example. If I get anything terribly wrong, I'm sure Joel, or Pavel, will correct me.

In your Active Pool, you have ~200k manpower, zero Armaments, and zero Rifle squads.
In your Transit Pool, you have another ~129k manpower, zero Armaments, and ~2.4k Rifle squads.

The Active Pool is what is immediately available, after all the replacements have occurred in your latest logistics phase. The Transit Pool is what is in holding to be distributed over the course of future turns. During your logistics phases, ~25% of each of the items in the Transit Pool are released to the Active Pool, so that they can get distributed to your forces as replacements. The equipment there is already "built" and represents items needing to be matched with crews. AFAIK, no more armament points are needed to activate these stored items as they are released to the active pool, or when they are assigned, as needed, to units.

As an example with the above numbers, next turn ~32k Manpower will move from the Transit Pool into the Active Pool, as well as ~600 Rifle Squads (equipment). These Rifle Squads will be paired up with some of the Manpower, and will get redistributed to your units as replacements. This is in addition to any newly created equipment, built from Armament Points that becomes available to be matched up with your growing manpower numbers during the next logistics phase.

Now, since you have no remaining accumulated armaments points, until you get some period of time where losses (including attrition) are substantially lower than they have been, or as Joel mentioned above, the armaments production rate increases, you will likely continue to burn through all of your armament points as soon as they are created, building new replacement equipment. Until that rate increases and your losses to replacements ratio reaches some parity, you will probably continue having more men available than equipment to outfit them.

This is a brief synopsis of the ebb and flow of manpower and equipment through the transit and active pools. I am typing this at work, and in a hurry to finish off so that I can start my weekend, so there may be omissions, or errors. Hopefully, Joel or Pavel will catch any and elaborate further.

If you have any other questions I can answer, I'll try to get back to them later in the day.

< Message edited by JAMiAM -- 6/17/2011 11:02:06 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 11:02:08 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

JamiaM you know anything about a guild named EB?

Side note.

Played allot of SB with a guy by your name. 03-06

No. I'm a lone wolf...

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 28
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/17/2011 11:24:21 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		James, you got it right. This is the time when shortages can and usually will exist for the Germans and also for the Soviets. Actions can be taken to minmize armaments usage on high armaments items in certain units, thus saving the points for rifles (although it's a little late for that now, over time it could have an impact). In the winter, you will tend to lose a lot of riflemen (they are the tip of the spear and most susceptible to the weather and the enemy). I would expect during the Spring you will begin to draw down your manpower pool, especially as all your equipment in the pools moves out of transit and becomes available to match with the manpower. There have been changes as I listed in the war many of these things work, so different games using different versions of the past 3 months could have different results. At this point I do not see this as broken, just something you have to deal with in the game.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

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Post #: 29
RE: Armerments bug or something like it? - 6/18/2011 12:14:41 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Ok I will take your word on this.

What I am having trouble understanding is as far as "Actions" I can take I alrdy took them during the mud turns. Again this is not my first winter in Russian.

Thats why I am kinda confused as to why my manpower pool is growing so fast from suck a gimpy Russian winter O, 75/102/117 is really the worst winter O I have fased and my pool is growing 50K a turn?

I hate to see what happens vs someone that knows what they are doing aka Hoooper/Tarhunnas/Flaviusx ect that can get 150K + kills a turn. Larry got 186k 2 turns in a row and my pool was never over 200k. I am only lossing 117( 75% to general winter) or less and the pool is growing by 50k a turn. Just seems really really odd vs my other games.

Ok play on I guess.

Thank you very much for your time and explaining everything to me

Pelton

Hapless feel free to move this if you think it belongs in another area.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/18/2011 12:17:00 AM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 30
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